Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
thisisme_gw

Anybody grown Paw Paw's,Pakistan Mulberry or italian prune in AZ?

thisisme
16 years ago

Has anybody grown Paw Paw's,Pakistan Mulberry or Italian prune in Arizona? I also want to know if the Italian Prune and Italian Plum are the same tree.

Before I spend any money I would love to hear from others who have grown or attempted to grow any of these down here is the Valley.

THISISME

Comments (28)

  • thisisme
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Thanks for the reply softmentor, I was starting to think no one was going to. I was told we get 400-450+ hours of chill two out of every three years here. There are just so many plants and trees that sound like they should do well here but don't because of our very low relative humidity which dries out the leaves and kills them. I think I'm going to go ahead and purchase a Mulberry and when I can find one an Italian Prune tree too. My guess is Paw PawÂs will grow here and produce fruit two out of every three years but I would like to hear from someone who has grown them here before I give them a try.

  • softmentor
    16 years ago

    well, it sounds like you have enough chill. Pawpaw also like high humidity and shelter from the wind. Wind will shred it's leaves. Not much you can do about humidity but you can make sure it is on the wind protected side of a building ,wall or something substantial.
    If you check with your local nurseries, not the big box ones but the local full service ones, you may be able to fine one that retails Dave Wilson trees. They have both. Here is the Dave Wilson site. You can't order from them directly, but the info about varieties is good. Try not to get lost... they have soooo many tempting varieties!

    http://www.davewilson.com/homegrown/homeindex.html

  • solar_gh
    16 years ago

    We have had fruitless mulberries forever here in the valley so the fruiting type should be a breeze. Being an old Kansas boy I love the black ones but mom hated the stains. The birds leave the same stains as the berries pass through the system. There is a white variety that might be better.
    As to the chill, I think that may relate to ground temps not air. Of course you could throw ice on the ground for several days to meet the chill criteria! :-) To grow things like apples, peaches and such you need to have low chill varieties to do well. Now if you live in Carefree, you might get lucky some years.

  • softmentor
    16 years ago

    solar gh
    Chill requirements are of air temp. Generally, the hours between 36 and 48 degrees. Here is some info if you are interested.
    http://fruitsandnuts.ucdavis.edu/weather/aboutchilling.shtml

    also, fruitless mulberries are mulberry trees with only male flowers. They are popular as shade trees and of course, none of the mess.

  • thisisme
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Thanks everyone. With the winds we get here I guess I will just pass on the Paw Paw's.

    The Pakistani Mulberry produces large dark fruit that does not stain and it looks like I will be ordering one soon.

    I was hoping someone would be able to tell me if the Italian Plum and Italian Prune are the same tree. I want a self fertile Italian Prune tree like the one I used to eat from as a child. I have looked and looked and can't find any in stock but there are tons of Italian Plum trees and the descriptions sound nearly identical.

    Can anyone lend me any insight on this?

  • solar_gh
    16 years ago

    After wading through the various dissertations, I understand the air temp being the control in the chill equation but as an old farmer I still equate ground temp with cycling of plant growth. Now the nesx question;
    Are the hours of chill reduced by the hours at 60 degrees or more as suggested in other articles? That would be quite a consideration in an area where there may be several hours over 60 and the real time is thus lessened.

  • thisisme
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Hi solar gh, That may be a tough question to answer and may be specific to each tree just as chill hours are different for different peaches and plums and so forth. I know from reading that hours over 60deg does affect the chill hour requirment but who knows how much? We have not yet had a day this year with daytime temps under 60deg and we are expecting 77deg here in the valley tomorrow so I don't think we have any chill hours yet that count but I'm not a fruit tree so my counting does not count.

    I called up Burnt Ridge Nursery to see about getting a Pakistani Mulberry and an Italian Prune/Plum tree and found out they would not ship until at least Jan 2008. The person on the other end was friendly and informitive and he told me that indeed the Italian prune and the Italian Plum are one and the same tree. I am overwintering Fig's and Tomatoe's and Pepper bushes indoors and was hoping to purchase now and get them here next week but I can't find any Nursery who has these trees in stock and ready to ship.

    THISISME still with more questions than answers and still no sourse for my trees.

  • solar_gh
    16 years ago

    What kind of fig do you have to winter in the house? All but the smallest figs will survive and become dormant until spring and be the first to bud out here in Mesa. They grew wild along the canal banks when I was a kid here until open ditches became a thing of the past. Been here since 1960 and used to pick figs and pomegranates on the way to school. My tomatos are in the greenhouse more for convenience but they will handle cold until frost. The peppers are another thing as they seem to stop growing as the air cools off and really like the heat. Just an old farmer's personal observations, not accepted by everyone and not intended to be.

  • thisisme
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Hi solar gh, I have two Zumwalt fig trees that I want to grow another 2'-3' before I put them out the end of Feb 2008. I want them to get big enough to take some cuttings from so I will have some to trade and perhaps some to sell on eBay where my user name is also THISISME. Not wanting to waste the light I also put in two Brown turkey's and Tomatoe and Pepper plants and 5 Pandan plants and a Laquat tree.

    I still have more room so I'm looking for more pepper and tomatoe plants and a small itallian plum/prune tree and a Pakastani Mulberry but no one is shipping them this time of year.

    THISISME

  • softmentor
    16 years ago

    The question of how much warm temperatures actually reverse the chill factor is still very much a hypothesis and needs a lot more study. In practical experience, there have been years that didn't seem like there were enough chill hours but the first chill days were early and everything still did well. the way to calculate is still needs to be studied and understood more. And of course it could be different for different for different kinds of trees, that is still not known. There are obviously a lot of variables.
    Still, there seems to be some merit to the idea that certain range of temperatures are the most effective, and very cold temp really doesn't do as much as slightly warmer than freezing.

    thisisme - an Italian prune is just and Italian plum that has been dried, regardless of variety.

  • tucsonken
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I found this thread while searching "pawpaw" and "Arizona," hoping somebody had grown them here successfully. I'm in Tucson and have six in-ground seedlings, planted in the spring of 2012. Not counting one that appears to be a natural dwarf, they range in size from about 18 inches to nearly 5 feet tall. I plan to graft two or three named varieties onto them in spring of 2016. Any other Arizonans out there growing pawpaws?

  • worryzone
    8 years ago

    Hi Thisisme,

    I have been growing a Pakistani Mulberry for almost a year. I got mine at Lowe's in the spring and it has been doing fine. A few of the leaves got a bit crispy in the summer but it is in full sun so it is to be expected. I got it because it can take sun, heat, and what cold we get and not have to be protected. So far so good. I have even had a handful of Mulberries off of it. It hasn't grown much since I put it in, but I am expecting great things this spring since it will have had time to settle in.

    Good Luck!

    Shannon

  • worryzone
    8 years ago

    I didn't realize how old this thread was, thisisme, give us an update, did you grow any paw paw, italian plums or mulberries?

  • worryzone
    8 years ago

    Hello all,

    So this morning just by happenstance, one of the garden blogs I read had a whole article on the Paw Paw tree. Here is the link if anyone is interested


    http://awaytogarden.com/discovering-pawpaws-with-andy-moore/

    Now I want to find a paw paw...

  • Fascist_Nation
    8 years ago

    That is wonderful news TucsonKen! I know Doug Jones in Mesa has tried to get them to survive in Phoenix on more than one occasion and they have failed. He would likely be interested in hearing from you. Paw Paws seem to be a serious challenge here. Which is surprising since they have natives in Florida (admittedly the panhandle) and Louisiana.

  • tucsonken
    7 years ago

    Thanks, Fascist_Nation, I'd be happy to talk with him. I emailed AZRFG to see if I can get his contact info.


    I decided to postpone grafting other varieties onto my trees for now, as I've read that seedlings from good varieties tend to be of good quality also. Mine are from Mango pollinated by Overlease. All survived the winter and look healthy. The largest has just produced its first (and only) flower, so I'm optimistic that if another tree follows suit in the next year or so, I might actually get to taste some fruit!


    Although we get occasional strong winds in Tucson, I've not seen any major leaf damage on my trees, so THISISME, if you're still interested, you might want to give them a try anyway, just for fun. I'd suggest getting seed from good varieties (England's Nursery sells seed, or members on various forums might be willing to share), keeping them in the refrigerator over the winter, and then pre-germinating them before planting directly in the ground the following spring.

  • Fascist_Nation
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    see bottom of list for contact info:

    http://crfg.org/local.html

    I went looking for Tucson affiliate info. Unfortunately two separate people have tried to organize Tucson branches of the AZRFG and been interrupted in their ability to do so. Considering we now have hundreds in our branch I would have thought there would have been enough interest in Tucson, Yuma, Prescott, Mohave Co. tri-city and Flagstaff to form branches there. They just don't seem to get past the initial formative phase in Tucson. edit: The last contact info (from 2016) I had was Dr. Christopher Marshall
    (480) 225-6003, tucson@crfg.org.

  • Fascist_Nation
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Seedlings can produce good quality fruit. Likely won't see fruit until at least 2020 on seedlings. Which would be around the same time if you grafted scions. Hand pollinate (electric toothbrush).

    "All grafting and budding techniques can be
    performed on the pawpaw, but T-budding is not recommended. Chip-budding has
    been reported to be successful. Scion wood should be gathered while the tree
    is dormant and kept refrigerated. Grafting can be done in the spring after
    vegetative growth begins."
    from: http://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/pawpaw.html

    Were I to try I would try scions of PA-Golden (early),
    Susquehanna (late, and fair chance it will do well in Tucson), with Florida cultivars Collin’s and Mango [not much point in your case] in between. Gainesville #1 and #2 would be on my next list.

    If interested here is my collected notes and links on pawpaw over the years (HTML): http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=16878268856656843746


  • tucsonken
    7 years ago

    Thanks again, F_N, for DJ's contact info, and your useful list of all things pawpaw.


    I've made a few visits to Tucson's rare fruit grower meetings--regularly in the early days, when Dick Gross came down from Phoenix to help get things in motion, and then again a few months back, just as it ran out of gas. I understand things had been going along pretty well until the person holding it all together had to relocate, and understandably, Chris wasn't up for resuming that role again all by himself.

  • fruitguy98
    7 years ago

    This is Doug Jones. I live in Mesa. I have tried pawpaw seedlings s no also grafted two foot trees and aLal died during the summer heat. Maybe Tucson is cooler and they can make it

  • tucsonken
    7 years ago

    Could be, Doug, although it reached 114 in my yard this month and the pawpaws are all still hanging in there. The biggest one had its first bloom this year. They do need shade the first couple of years, and longer if you notice they're suffering. How did you plant your seedlings? I put my seeds directly in the ground as soon as I saw they were germinating, and kept them well-watered.

  • tucsonken
    7 years ago

    Btw, I tried to email you through arizona@crfg.org back on April 19, but apparently it didn't reach you.

  • fayannec
    5 years ago

    Tucsonken(9a) how are your paw paw doing? What setup did you use initially? Shade cloth? Post pictures if you can. A lot of us in Arizona are trying to do the same.

  • tucsonken
    5 years ago

    As long as I stay on top of the watering, they do pretty well--but by being stingy & careless with the irrigation I nearly killed my biggest one last year, and when I went out this morning to take photos I saw that another one has dried out and is really suffering. So, due to my own neglect, I've only got two decent ones left.

    This one is now my best hope. It's 6 feet high and even made a few flowers this year.


    This had been the biggest until last summer when the main trunk died due to water stress. At first I thought the missing leaves were due to leafcutter ant, but no such luck. It's now trying to come back from the base, so I'll keep my fingers crossed that it will succeed as a multi-trunked tree (which would make a good base for grafting on a few named varieties).


    This one has been slow but is hanging in there; it put out a few flowers this year as well.

    Your request for photos may have saved this one--time will tell. I went out to take pictures and saw it was on its last legs, so I gave it a soak. Hopefully it's not too late.


    This 10" runt came from the same batch of seeds as the others, and was planted at the same time. Aside from being tiny, it seems healthy enough, so I just leave it alone to do its thing under a white sapote. I include it with the other shots just to make the point that, if you're starting them from seeds (and you have enough to waste some), you might as well plant several in each location and then cull the least vigorous.


    I kind of got sidetracked by avocados last year, and haven't been paying enough attention to the pawpaws. In Arizona they clearly need frequent, deep irrigation, and one hot day with a water deficit is enough undo several years of progress. They also need deep mulch, which I also haven't gotten around to adding yet. I'll try to do a better job of taking care of them this summer, in hopes of being able to give a better report next year. In the meantime, if you haven't already done so, you might want to join the Pawpaw Fanatics Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/927257504078942/

  • fayannec
    5 years ago

    Thank you so much for sharing! It's incredible that you have a few 6 foot trees with a ten inch sibling. Fingers crossed that you get fruit next year! I noticed your first photo was in sun. Do they still need some shade once they reach this size? Thanks again for posting photos!!!

  • tucsonken
    5 years ago

    They've always gotten some direct sun, but there are enough other trees around that it's not continuous. A big mesquite shades them later in the day. But--as near as I've been able to tell, when they have plenty of water, they seem okay with the sun.

  • fayannec
    5 years ago

    Will keep that in mind. Thank you for your advice. Your trees look great!