Was there not even one seed? All it takes is one seed in each ovary to trigger fruit formation, but sometimes they'll do it even when there are no seeds forming. I don't know why that is, but it seems to be a varietal thing, like a navel orange. Logically it shouldn't do that, it's a real waste of plant energy, but the plants don't always know that. ;-)

The red color comes from the cruenta parent in this cross.

I just went through ALL of them seed pods. Every single pod developed in the flower head developed. And NOT ONE seed!

BTW Lisa, I read some article in Bromeliacea - that Australian newsletter. The guy mentioned something interresting. If a particular Neo (any brom, I suppose)is self infertile, it can easily be overcome by using any outside pollen, but kill it (microwave)and mix it with its own pollen and pollinate the plant. Apparently it looses the self-infertile thing the moment the stigma comes in contact with outside pollen - live or dead!

Well, that's an interesting technique, Japie! I'll have to make a note of that. I wonder if you could also use pollen from a species too distantly related to actually fertilize the ovum, and mix it with its own pollen. For example, Aechmea 'Little Harv' was supposedly made by pollinating Ae. chantinii with a Pitcairnea, which is in a completely different subfamily, making it not a viable cross. The resulting plant shows no sign of Pitcairnea lineage, and I think it's also triploid (has an extra set of chromosomes). The speculation has been that the alien pollen did somehow trigger seed formation, but it did not actually pollinate it.

If that is the case, though, it seems like you'd get at least a small percentage of self-pollination every time you did an outside cross, it being so difficult to completely emasculate a flower once the pollen is ripe. I haven't had that happen, so I'm wondering if there is more to it than that.

I suspect that John knows more about this kind of thing than I do, so maybe he can explain it.

I tried to get the link to that volume of Bromeliacea, but there seems a problem with that particular one. It is in the Jan/Feb 2007 volume. Article on page 8 : Crossing Bromeliads by Rob Smythe MSc. The paragraph of interest:
"If you actually want to self a plant which usually won't take, there are ways to do it. Chemicals and surgery have been used but there is a simpler way. Collect pollen from a foreign but related plant. Kill it by microwaving and put it on the stigma with the plants own pollen."

I'm not sure if I'm the John your talking about or not but, it has been said that some plants are just not self fertile. If you had another of the same plant and crossed them you would get seed. For example Hemerocallis altissima will not produce seed if selfed, but if you use pollen from another plant even in the same clump, it will set seed nearly 100% of the time. There are a large number of trees that are that way, many nut trees are, you have to plant them in pairs, and sometimes even use different varieties.

I have no idea why your plant produced fruit since there were no seeds, but then again there are seedless grapes, oranges etc.

I have also been told that if you are trying to get a stubborn TETRAPLOID Daylily to set pods, to first hit it wit Diploid pollen to get the stigmatic fluid flowing, moving the pollen to the ovaries. Why this works is a mystery to me. I have also been told to mix pollen fron 2 different tetraploid conversions of one Daylily to get better pod sets.

Just recently (and I don't know where I saw it) I read about mixing pollens and using mixed pollen in hybridizing. I really prefer to know who the daddy is so if the cross looks promising I can repeat it later.

John, I know that if you have two different clones of the same species or siblings of the same cross you can get pollination of self-incompatible varieties, but how would using pollen from another plant of the same clone be any different than selfing it?

I know very little about polyploidy. It's not usually an issue with bromeliads, but this is what the Baensch's book has to say about Ae. 'Little Harv':

"Like animals, plants are normally diploid, i.e. they have a double set of chromosomes resulting from the fusion of male and female genes. If the process of cell nucleus splitting is disturbed, quadruple or mutiple sets of chromosomes (polyploidy) may be the result. Disturbances of this kind also occur in nature, but can be artificially induced by chemicals or non-specific pollen, as was the case here where the plant was pollinated with Pitcarnia sp. pollen (according to the breeder). Breeders have managed to create a multitude of polyploid agricultural and ornamental plants. Natural polyploid plants are rare. They often are infertile or too sensitive to subsist in the competition for survival."

Despite all this they list the parentage as Aechmea chantinii x rubens(?). I don't get that. I guess they're just hedging their bets.

At any rate, have you ever heard of this idea of mixing killed outside pollen with self-pollen to get a plant to self?

Lisa,
I don't know why it works but in that clump of H. altissima, they would all be clones, but it works. I think the unrelated pollen triggers the stigmatic fluid flow, and the dead pollen or unrelated pollen will not fertilize the ova.

A friend had me self pollinate all my Hemerocallis species plants last summmer, because he was interested to know which were self fertile.

Yes I have heard of using dead pollen to get things moving, but have not tried it. I have a few plants that are said to be pod infertile I am going to try it on this season. I wonder too if the time of day makes a difference. I'm just about willing to bet that some broms are nocturnal bloomers, and are more receptive at night. There are nocturnal daylilys, and some of them were giving me fits until I realized I needed to pollinate the freshly opened flowers at 9:00pm, not 9:00am like I normally would. I was out waundering around the garden last summer and was surprised to find a flower that is a great pollen parent open at 5:00am. I pollinated it and got 1 pod with 3 seeds, so timing might be everything.

Rules are always ment to be broken.

Example A: Hemerocallis fulva Europa, the common ditch lily is a triploid which is pretty much sterile. I set 1 pod on it last summer with 4 seeds using a tetraploid. I took hundreds of crosses. The resulting plants will be tetraploid, creating a new genetic line of tetraploids.

Example B: Hemerocallis fulva Korea is a diploid with reduced gametes. It sets seed 100% of the time with tetraploid pollen not many 3 to 12 per pod, the resulting plants are Tetraploid. Oddly enough it is not much more fertile when pollinated with diploid pollen.

No I have not set pods on diploids with tetraploid pollen, or with triploid pollen, but I will continue to try.

Just because something dosen't work once try again anyway, try earlier, later, on warm days, on cool days, when the air is dry, or when its so moist and humid you can't stand it.

"Despite all this they list the parentage as Aechmea chantinii x rubens(?). I don't get that. I guess they're just hedging their bets."

They only needed 1 seed (I wonder how many they got and grew out). Unless someone was to do DNA comparisons there is no real way to tell.

Some Guzmanias are receptive at night, as well as Werrauhias and some of the foliage Vrieseas. There may be others, but no Neos that I know of. It's pretty easy to tell because the flowers are only open for a few hours. It usually takes an hour or so after the petals open for the pollen to be ripe and the stigma receptive, but a few hours after that they'll start to shrivel up again. Some Neo flowers wither by late morning, while other varieties may stay open until late afternoon, but I've never seen any open at night.

How can you tell if a seedling is diploid, triploid or tetraploid?

Actually it isn't easy, there are not that many Triploids to start with, as a matter of fact the only one know of is fulva Europa, generally the tetraploids have more robust foliage.

"Some Neo flowers wither by late morning, while other varieties may stay open until late afternoon, but I've never seen any open at night."

Have you looked at night?

If they wither by late morning they must open early morning or late at night when it is cooler. I have noticed that when it is cooler the flowers last longer. Some of the species daylilys are blooming here now, and the blooms will last 2 days since it is not real warm yet.