Hi Yong

Cant help with the carcharodons I am afraid....but I really want to see pics of your chantinii sport that you spoke about a week ago or so.

Dennis

OK, this is addictive.

Macho and Giant are different, giant having longer leaves like Tiger. These selected carcharodon forms were mostly introduced into cultivation from Brazilian collections, usually collected in the Rio area.
Macho, originally 'Frasier's never-to-be-released' plant, thought to be a Hohenbergia before it flowered, then id'd (incorrectly)by an expert as pascoaliana which is from much further north, was collected near Rio and named in Australia. It is a more compact carcharodon with giant spines and a prominent black tip on the leaf. I have been told Giant came from Corcovado in Rio and Macho from Niteroi. There are others like Silver and Rainbow which are stunners too and more will come along. Watch what you buy as there are lots of misnamings around. Buy from a reputable grower.

Cheers, Pedro

Hey Pedro, do you reckon Giant is in Oz yet?

Shane

Hi Shane, yep, I have a couple but it is a bit cold sensitive I've discovered. Olive has it too, from Michael Kiehl ex Chester of course. I tried hybridising with it but no pods on it at all - very unusual for this group. How are your Silver and Rainbow? Winter's been kind on this group so far!

Cheers, Pedro

Thanks Pedro..bummer about no Giant pods; will watch for cold when I get one.

Rainbow has settled in quite well, and looking forward to summer me thinks - like most of us! Silver is outstanding. Just sensational growth since I got him, and he is over wintering in good strong light with a bit of filter from a Cycad. I am sure they are both hankering for a Giant to join the clan!

What you do probably know of are the Macho x Tiger and reverse cross; they are developing into very nice plants, with black splotching/spotting/markings starting to appear. I have them in full all day sun.

Oh goodie... Pedro/Peter, you appear to be the go-to guy for info on this group. Glad you've decided to join us!

Questions: have all of these been definitively IDed as N. carcharodon or is there still some speculation as to correct species? This year I flowered Rainbow, Silver and Tiger, and the inflorescences looked pretty similar on all of them, so I'm assuming that whatever species they belong to, it's the same one, is that correct? There is some resemblence (of the inflo) to pascoaliana. Aside from the locale, what are the differences to rule that out? Or is locale enough?

If they are not carcharodon, then what is the real carch? At the moment I have what we have been calling carcharodon Rubra in bloom, and it is obvious from the shape of flowers and the inflo as a whole that it is a completely different species than the ones previously mentioned. I gather this may actually be either N. gigas or pernambucana, do we know for sure?

Last question is about the seed-setting habits of these guys. You mentioned getting no pods on Giant, and that this was unusual for the group. Unusual in what context? Left alone? Self-pollinated? Pollinated with others in the same group? Pollinated with other species/hybrids? I don't mean this to sound like the third degree, I'm just trying to get a fix on how to use the group. I don't have Giant or Macho (yet), but my experience so far has been that Tiger does not want to set seed. It's a great pollen parent, but as a mother it has never produced anything for me either with its own pollen or with anything outside this group. I did get the odd berry from a couple of outside crosses, but they contained very few seeds, none of which germinated. My theory has always been that it is a) self-incompatible, and b) that the size of the flower and requisite pollen tube effectively preclude its acceptance of anything smaller. I've heard reports from others who have not had this problem, however, so maybe I'm just doing it wrong. This year was my first try with Rainbow and Silver, so I'm hoping that Tiger will except Rainbow's pollen. I did the cross both ways, just in case (and also Rainbow with Silver). Now I'm wondering if either of these last two are self-pollinators? My N. pascoaliana selfs, so I just want to make sure that the carch seed is in fact hybrid.

Any comments on using these big guys in hybridizing is most welcome!

Hi Lisa

I am no 'expert'. I have been collecting these giants for years (not easy either as they often succumb to MeBr gassing so has proved an expensive pursuit!). I'd usually leave the Neo taxonomy to others like Harry and Derek, sticking to less messy Tills, etc but decided to get involved in this group due to all the problems. A major issue was the orig carcharodon Rubra which sure wasn't a carcharodon due to its monster flowers and petals, then came Elton to the rescue, naming a few new species. N gigas is the obvious match (90%+ in my disections) but where did these come from? Seed or wild? Because of this unknown factor cultivar names are on the cards. There are also many hybrids of 'carch Rubra' that aren't variegated and seed has been distributed too. None of the seed progeny I've seen in Australia are true so the 'birds' have produced hybrids. These must be all over the world as N carcharodon.
Taxonomically, Tiger, Macho, Giant and Silver (the 4 I've flowered) match the very old original description of carcharodon closely, esp Silver. The type was from Rio de Janeiro. Gigas etc are from further north past Vitoria. I know silvomontana is around but often as pernambucana, but without Elton's magnificent 'Fragments of the Atlantic Forest of NE Brazil' you'd be in the dark on these new species. Maybe Harry could update on what's around in the US. I'm not sure pernambucana is available yet??

There's no doubt pascoaliana is very similar hence the original confusion. With identification it is often critical to know the original source.

Re hybridising, I have grown Macho from seed to flower(selfed) as well as a range of hybrids and Tiger is good for hybrids as we know. The others I am in the process of finding out about like you. The Macho and Tiger hybrids are very fertile too.

What do you know about Kiehl's 'carcharodon species, Brazil- red spotted'? It a nice looking plant but the name is a shocker.

Cheers, Peter

If you want to know about the red spotted plant asking Michael would be the best source of information

Hi everyone,

Great thread and great info Pedro. I just love this place.

I've been feeling quite pleased with myself at having acquired Tiger, Rainbow and Macho(?), but reading this just now I've found that there is also Silver. Sounds fantastic - another one to look forward to! I just love these big, spectacular, spikey beasts.

Re my Macho(?), that's what I bought it as, but I've seen pics of some others that look a bit more green and glossy on the tops of the leaves, so I'm not real sure of the id. Pedro, I've included a couple of pics of it below. If you'd care to comment on its id, I'd really appreciate it. Plant is approx. 45cm across and it has been in full morning sun for the two months that I've had it.

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If anyone could show a couple of pics of Silver to whet my appetite further, that would also be great.

Thanks in quivering anticipation, Paul

Lisa, you seem to be the only one who has hybridized pascoaliana and registered the results: Etch-A-Sketch. Any guess as to why that might be the case?

Here is a photo of Carcharodon Silver, although the photo doesn't really show the thick silver frosting all over it. Also I have acquired a Carcharodon which is white flowering. Is this the true species as I've been told or what's the story on the white vs blue flower?
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Hi Jennie, thanks for the pic. Silver looks brilliant - just gotta get one. Cheers, Paul

Here is another one I saw at the Brom. Society of Queensland Autumn display. It is Carcharodon Jaws Magenta. Does anyone know much about this one?
{{gwi:474592}}

Thanks, Peter. I don't know the original source of my "Rubra". I got it from David Shiigi years ago, before all of the Skotak (car x carch) hybrids came on the scene, but beyond that....? I would post a photo of the bloom, but I am currently experiencing technical difficulties (AGAIN, *sigh*) with Photobucket, so it will have to wait until that works itself out. In the meantime, I guess I'd better get my grubby little hands on Leme's book so I can compare it with gigas.

As to the spotted sp. Michael has, I know nothing more than you. Mine has a ways to go before blooming, so I can't draw any conclusions from that, but it definitely is an attractive plant, whatever it is. That thing stopped me cold in my tracks when I was at his place, and I was just as surprised as you to hear that it might be a carcharodon. Heck, I was even surprised it was a species, I was fully expecting it to be some kind of monster olens hybrid!

Blue Heeler, as far as I know they all have white flowers. Rubra flowers start out white but take on a lavender tinge as they age, at least mine do. I've never seen any in this group with blue flowers, though. Maybe hybrids?

Paul, Japie has a fantastic photo of Silver somewhere but I can't find which thread it's on. His has turned all rosy in the sun, really lovely. Maybe he'll drop in and post it.

Nick, one reason there aren't more pascoaliana hybrids listed in the registry is because of all this constant name reshuffling. Up until maybe 15 or 20 years ago, most people grew it under the name of............. carcharodon. It was confusing then too because there was "carcharodon" and "carcharodon Rubra", which are/were clearly not the same species. The only thing they have in common is size and big spines. At some point Harry declared it to be pascoaliana and Rubra to be the one and only true carcharodon, and we all heaved a sigh of relief. At least until Tiger et al came along, and now it seems we're back to square one.

At any rate, many of the older hybrids that claim a carcharodon parent are really pascoaliana hybrids. Some used carch Rubra-- sometimes that is specified, other times not. You can kind of tell by looking at them, though, like Takemura Grande. I don't see any evidence of Rubra in there at all, and it certainly predated the introduction of this latest group, but pascoaliana and concentrica seem like perfectly plausible parents to me. There are a number of other species that fall into a similar category, so it really helps to know the history of name confusion when you're reading the registry.

Paul, here are 2 pictures of my Silver. First one in the beginning of Summer taking on that rosy colour Lisa is talking about. Deeper into Summer it darkened even more, but to a dull, washed out burgundy blush. And now in Winter with our low light, back to green.

Neo Sliver

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And here's 2 of Rainbow:

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Pedro, and this is what my spotted secies looked like when I got it, and a bit later after I fertilised it a bit to get some growth in it:

Neo carcharodon species, Brazil - red spotted:

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And here is my Giant that came from Michael. I asked him for Macho and his reply was that it is the same plant, just with different names in different parts of the world. If you have both and can show pictures (or describe the difference between the two) I would be grateful.

Neo Giant:

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And also after fertilised:

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Mike, and I know you were also looking out for pictures of them, but I was kind of holding on till Summer to get some nice colour with the new growth they put on this past year.

And one more peculiarity: Tiger is loosing it's stripes here in our climate - or I am doing something wrong to it. And it's leaf tips are also dying. So mine is not looking nice.

Japie

Okay, things seem to be working at the moment, so here's Rubra/gigas:

{{gwi:474614}}

Those long spiky sepals are unlike anything on the carcharodons.

Can't compete with Japie's photos though. Your Rainbow is blinding me!

Hello Everybody,

Thanks for all informations and photos. I'm just coming back from my nursery out of town. I don't know that the discussions are flowing. I forget to take photos of my plants. I have Tiger, Rainbow, Giant, Silver and Macho(Still young). I also have Rubra and pernumbucana. I will take photos and post them next 2 weeks because next week I will be very busy and will not have times. I promise. ;-)

Pedro, Thank for your educative knowledges of Giant and Macho. I got Macho from my Aussie friend. Hope it's the real Macho.

Lisa, Rubra I have looks similar to your plant. This plant I got from my friend more than 10 years ago. The mother rotted and produced 5 pups. They are growing to near maturity size but not flower yet. Their morphology are different from Rubra in trade (look similar to Lisa's plant) and also different from pernumbucana I have. Hope they will be Gigas as you mentioned. I will have wait until it bloom.

Very nice plants, japie. I drool over your Rainbow. Thank for sharing.

Cheers
Yong

Hi again everyone, all really interesting. Japie, that Silver is just stunning and the Rainbow - wow, if I can get my pup half-way that good I'll be deliriously happy. Sorry to hear about your Tiger - any chance it is just the winter shutting down colour production a bit? Hope it gets better.

Now, to start my hunt for Silver. Cheers, Paul

Great discussion and photos everyone!..I am eyeing up a move to Aussie for sure now...it's just the beer and the substandard rugby team over there that I can't stomach...oh well, who cares if you can look at awesome Carch type broms forever more !

Peter, you mentioned above you grew 'Macho' from seed that was a selfer ? I understood from other sources that these larger Carchs were NOT self seeding plants ? Can you shed some more light on the family (including Tiger, Silver, Giant etc) re this ?

Cheers
Graeme

Hi Guys

Lisa, re blue flowers, Leme says for gigas: Petals, white except for the pale lilac apex.

Neo. gigas has yellow seed pods, my Neo. carcharodon, as with yours has white flowers & gets a lavender tinge, but mine, only when the flowers are closeing & spiraled together, I only got a few seed pods, all were white, hoping I get some germination, about 2 wks now.

My plant now under the cultivar name of Neo. Great White.

Another to look at is Neo. Blue Shark. (U.D. Says)

Neo. Macho I only got a few pods from also, last week.

Blue Heeler, the last Neo. Jaws Magenta I saw was a variegated plant at O.T's, your plant looks like Neo. Gummy grown in high light ???

Neo. Gummy (reg. in the 90's by Genny Vauhkonen/Catlan) being the non variegated form of Neo. Jaws.

Pinkbroms

Great pics and plants!

Though I dont have many of the Neos being discussed here I do have tiger and rainbow.

My tiger never set a single seed though I did the business every morning with various daddys???

Jap: How much sun do you get on your tigers in Winter? My tigers are in all day winter sun and they are looking great. Rainbow just got moved to more sun and I will have to wait and see if midday summer sun does any damage.

Cheers

Dennis

Hi all

Lovely carcharodon types in the pics! Hopefully all the advice about pasting the link (not the URL I discovered) will show images in the posting. Various people asked various questions so I'll attempt to answer some of them. All of the plants are growing under 50% white in the same mix and fertilising. It's mid winter and a wet one at that, with over 1500mm since March. The sun came back last week so I expect amazing colouration over the next couple of months as the sunlight intensifies.

A group of carchs - (clockwise from right) Tiger, Spotty, Spines, Macho, Giant, Rainbow, Silver (all imported).

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Silver

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Compare Macho (left) and Giant (ex Kiehls) and the difference is obvious.

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Some Macho hybrids (all unregisitered as yet).

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A couple of hybrids from seed collected in Brazil from a carcharodon.

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Re the old carch Rubra and its relationship to gigas, silvomontana and pernambucana, maybe I'll start a new thread when I get time. I have some interesting images and info on these and it will be great to hear from others in other countries too.

Cheers, Pedro

Thanks for showing that Pedro! I do like those Macho hybrids, specially the dark ones. And I am looking forward to your thread about all those others!

Japie

Hi Pedro,

Thanks for the info and the pics. Great to see all of those carcharodons together for comparison.

Also interesting (very) is that zonated variegated plant tucked away in the top left hand background of your pic no. 4. I've been trying to track down something like that for ages - see them regularly in pics from overseas but haven't come across one anywhere here. Any info on it?

Cheers, Paul

Hi Paul, the variegated / zonated plant in the background you are looking for is a Neo.carolinea x Hannibal lector some where very bizare, some had very narrow leaves , but they where beautifull, so flower both plants and remake the cross , you have to use a variegated (NOT albo marginate)carolinea such as 'meyendorfii variegata' the existing plants are rare and hard to come by , bye Jack

Hi Jack, thanks for the info.

I cursed myself when I missed the chance to buy a 'meyendorfii variegata' some time back, and now I'm cursing myself again. However, Nev has kindly offered the services of one that he has, so as soon as HL produces pollen, I think I might take some on a nice drive down the coast to pay Nev a visit.

I have a Roy's Special and another concentrica x carolinae type (very white - maybe too much) that I'll try with HL pollen as well ....... if my HLs ever get around to flowering. Can't be far off this year - I hope. (NB Japie, if you're reading this, that white concentrica x ended up not selfing at all. Looks I called the pregnancy a bit too early. I'll send you an email.)

Thanks again. Cheers, Paul

Hi all

Paul/Jack, the variegated plant could be one of many Skotak is doing, all with carcharodon Tiger in there somewhere. The earlier ones like this were usually carolinae (Mother) x Hannibal Lector but later ones were often more complex using plants like Norman Bates and so on. Lots of the striated carolinae hybrids act as Mothers giving variegated seedlings, often more of the same and not as good as the selected ones available.

Also, a correction re Macho, Chester S tells me Luis Correia de Araujoi was the collector and he (Chester) took it back to Costa Rica. The rest of my info refers to the plant I brought to Australia in 1990. Grace Goode was the first to get a plant which RL Frasier, who was with us at the time, requested, so that's his connection I think - many yrs ago!

If you feed Macho it gets huge - Macho!

Cheers, Pedro

Hi Yong, thanks for starting this thread. These exploding questions are just great - suddenly there is interesting stuff everywhere.

Pedro, thanks for the extra info on the zonated variegated Neos. I reckon something with the overall pattern of a dartboard would be a great target to aim for (sorry, I swear I couldn't help it!). The idea of a huge 'Macho' is also just wonderful. I know some neighbourhood deer that should meet one asap. It's Friday evening, so cheers, Paul