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I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Posted by brom_adorer NSW (My Page) on
Wed, Jul 1, 09 at 5:09

I bought two of these from different sellers, mail order, so sight unseen. They appear to be quite different.
The one on the left stays almost golden with tiger stripes and blushes when in flower, where as the one on the right has a pinkish hue always, and doesn't seen to brighten up much on flowering. Could the one on the right be Neoregelia 'Gympie Delight'?
They are side by side, and receiving the same cultural treatment, so by rights, should look more alike, don't you think? Also, both are last summers pups, removed at the same time, and the same size.
B_A
Two Neoregelias, left one 'Blushing Tiger' right one 'Gympie Delight'?
Two Neoregelias, both labelled N. 'Blushing Tiger'
mmmmm, my pots need cleaning!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Hi B_A, I'm no expert on these, but have both BT and what I bought as Gympie Delight. The one on the left certainly looks like a BT grown in medium light (background colour would be more orange in bright light).

The one on the right looks to be a bit of a puzzle. It looks too pink for a BT and sort-of looks like Gympie Delight, but the Gympie Delight I have (also grown next to a BT)is distinctly mauve-ish rather than pink-ish . Maybe you have the real Gympie Delight and I don't. Or maybe there are few different but similar-ish clones from the Gympie Delight cross floating around. Or maybe we both have Gympie Delight and the differences between our two plants are cultural?

Interested in anyone else's thoughts. Cheers, Paul


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Your expert is on this forum and I am sure she will comment. There is also "Unblushing Tiger"


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

I guess that's my cue. ;-)

I'm not sure I have an answer, though. At first look, I thought they were both BT, just grown under different conditions. If you had just purchased them that wouldn't be too surprising. It sounds like you've been growing them both through at least one blooming cycle, though, so if they're both getting the same amount of light and fertilizer they should look about the same at this point.

I don't have Gympie Delight, so I can't really comment on that. I've always wondered about it, though, since the photo on FCBS looks so BT-like. Does it blush when it blooms? If so, I need to get one for my collection, but I don't think it's available in the US.

For the record, there is only one clone of BT, but it can vary greatly depending on growing conditions. Most other people seem to grow it better than I do. Mine in my 40% shadehouse tend to develop the pinky-bronze tone of your plant on the right, B_A, and it also has a tendency to lose some of its zonation under those conditions, particularly if it gets fed much, and during bloom it blushes so much you can hardly see the tiger part. The ones I just throw underneath the bench look closer to your plant on the left, greener background and stronger dark banding. I'm coming to the conclusion that it likes lower light but minimum feed for maximum effect, at least under my conditions.

Yes, there is also an Unblushing Tiger, which is greener with stronger banding, but, as the name implies, no red cup. It has apparently gotten around Oz under various names, including Spring Tiger. It is a Blushing Tiger F2, which is how it was tagged when I sold one to an Aussie customer, so it's not too much of a stretch to think it may have subsequently been tagged as just BT. It has rounder tips than the plant on the left, though, and if yours blushed, then that definitely rules that out.

It might help to know the source of each one.


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Thanks for your replies, I bought the originals as pups, last year. They both flowered, the one below in Dec 08, (Mother plant of the one on the left in the previous pics, came from the Brisbane area)
and the other began to flower in October 08, (the mother of the one on the right in the previous pics, came from warner, in Qld)I won't post the sellers names incase something comes back to bite me.
One pic is with the flash, so it looks a bit different, but you get the idea.
B_A
N. 'Blushing Tiger'
N. 'Blushing Tiger'?


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Sorry, I'm not familiar enough with Aussie geography or seasons to draw any conclusions from that. I figured if we could track the source directly back to me that would help clear things up, but I understand if you don't want to name names.

Is the lower pic the plant on the right? The cup looks more pinky-lavender than BT's normal red, but photo color can be deceiving. Did both plants self-seed? I don't know anything about Gympie Delight's habits, but BT is a major selfer. If all of the berries did not set up (pollinators or no pollinators), then it's not BT.

That brings up another possibility, that someone grew out some F2s and labelled them BT. It happens. Some people don't realize that hybrids don't come true from seed. If you grew out the seeds that would tell you a lot too. Despite their outward similarities, GD has a very different genetic makeup than BT, as you can tell by looking at its grexmates on FCBS.

Still, I'm not seeing any overwhelming reason to jump to the conclusion that one of them must be mislabeled. Neos can be very reactive to subtle differences in media, etc., this cv. in particular.


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Hi B_A, hi Lisa,

Managed to get this pic of my two plants together. Very early this morning before work so the light isn't ideal, but the colours are pretty close to what you see.
Photobucket

Plant on the left is poor old mama BT with pups 7, 8 & 9 on the way and its the middle of winter, so she's lost the blush of youth, but the characteristics are still sort-of there, with the remains of a general tendency for a reddish-orange wash over the leaves and what's left of an intense dark hot pink-red around the cup.

The plant on the right is my Gympie Delight. It is also a mama but a bit more youthful, with pups 1 & 2 on the way. The general wash over the leaves is mauve rather than the orange-red of BT, and the cup is a more of a pastel mauve and this is about as intense as it has been, nowhere near the intensity of the hot pink-red that used to be more evident on the BT.

These two plants have been grown virtually next to each other for well over a year and these differences have remained consistent. Having seen your second lot of pics now B_A, I'd say that the plant in your bottom pic is the same as the 'Gympie Delight' that I have. Since this looks like the pics on fcbs of the hybridiser's plant and I bought it from a reputable seller located in the same general area as the hybridiser, I'd say we could both be pretty confident we have Gympie Delight.

Hey Lisa! I just re-read your point about BT selfing, donned the head torch, raced down the yard and gave some sepals a tweek. Old mama BT has set every flower and the berries are chockers with seed, just as you said, but poor old GD? Not a single one. So B_A, if your BT (not with question mark) fits with Lisa's point about selfing, I reckon your original proposition of having BT and GD is probably spot-on (groan - I swear I didn't mean it!)

Interested in your thoughts Lisa, and sorry if I've gotten carried away again. I just love this stuff and can't help myself. Cheers, Paul


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Wow, Paul, they really do look a lot alike, don't they? I would have taken one look at your pic and said they were the same plant, so thanks for your description and explanation. Sounds like the self-seeding test may well settle the question.

Now I'm going to get even more carried away (and further off-topic) because this grex of Margaret Paterson's is one that has always fascinated me (see link below, ain't FCBS grand?). While I would not have kept and registered so many cvs, the fact that she did allows people like myself to study the results and get a crash course in genetics by observing which traits of the parents (and grandparents, etc.) have come to the fore in each of the offspring. Unfortunately the ancestry of the pollen parent is unknown (which would have made it REALLY interesting), but given that neither parent is zonated, and zonation tends to be recessive, it is amazing to me that this trait has resurfaced as strongly as it has in several of the offspring, apparently from the distant maternal great-grandparent ampullacea. Does anyone have Gympie Promise or G Twilight, Tiger, Amethyst, etc. for comparison? It looks like GD is probably the best of that lot, particularly judging by the fact that the others are mostly photographed from below only.

Now the question is where can I get one without traveling to Oz?

Here is a link that might be useful: FCBS search: Satsuma x Little Dazzler


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Hello again, thanks for that info Lisa. What is an F2, and what are the parents of Neo. 'Blushing Tiger'? I was surprised to read that Neo. 'Gympie Delight' comes from N. 'Satsuma'. I remember looking at all the N. 'Gympies' on FCBS some time ago, and thinking I wasn't all that taken with them. The pictures were what made me think my plant was a GD, rather than BT.
The second pic is quite true to colour, which is what led me to my thinking it was GD. I've just now pulled some of the seed capsules and they've never set, where as when I checked the Neo 'Blushing Tiger' it HAS got seed. What am I likely to get if I grow them on?
Paul, like mine, your BT has a larger flower head than the GD, did it remain that size? and the colour is so close as to convince me I'm right in my thinking. Your plants look huge though! What do they measure in span?
I guess the safest thing to do, is plant them in the garden and don't pass them on, (The suspect GD) then I won't confuse the issue with some poor unsuspecting brom collector.
Thank you so much for all your help and I've enjoyed the ongoing discussion. I'm going to go find something else to question now! Tee hee.
B_A


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

The F2 generation is what you get when you self-pollinate a hybrid, B_A. Another way of saying the same thing is "x self". No new blood added, but the genetic deck gets reshuffled. If an F2 is self-pollinated you get F3s, and so on. Depending on how complex the original hybrid was, you may get some that look sort of like one or the other parent, or go off in another direction entirely. The more different species are in its background, the more different directions it can go in, both in the original cross and in subsequent generations. You can see that in the Gympie grex.

Blushing Tiger is carolinae 'Perfecta' x ('Marnier-Lapostolle' F2). Only 3 species in the mix, and none of them have any marmoration, so despite their superficial resemblance, BT and GD will behave very differently if used as parents. You probably won't get anything great if you grow out BT's selfed seed. Maybe one or two halfway decent zonates, maybe not. The odds of getting anything that looks just like the mother or better are pretty low for this one. The majority will almost certainly be kind of muddy-looking and lightly flecked rather than banded, and very few will have the red cup. Its best traits seem to be recessive, so it's kind of frustrating to work with.

Hey Paul, I just noticed your BT has a couple of thin stripes of what looks like variegation, or am I seeing things? Better keep an eye on that. If you get a variegated pup I call first dibs!


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Hi B_A, those two plants of mine are both around 35cm across the furthest leaf tips. The mesh in the background is only 25mm square - makes the two plants look the size of carcharodon Tigers! Sorry about that.

Hi Lisa, you've sprung me. That certainly is a stripe of variegation and I've been going to get around to asking you about it for a while. Sorry to indulge in a bit more thread-jacking B_A, but this seems like a good time.

It first appeared in that leaf in the top left hand corner then repeated in the next 2 (final) leaves from that sector. Shame it started so high up the plant. I've had it half on its side with the striped sector facing the sun for the last 5 months to try to stimulate pups there and I've been rewarded with 3 positioned more-or-less below the variegation, two of them just starting to open out and the third still closed but developing.

No sign of variegation on these just-opening pups yet, but I guess that's not surprising because the top pup is still two leaves below the first variegated leaf on the mother plant. Do you think it would be worth waiting a bit longer until these pups have a few well-developed leaves before I decide they have no variegation and chop them off? Or would it be better to chop them off as soon as they open, until I get one that is obviously variegated?

I already have plenty of pups from this plant, so my main concern is trying to keep the mother plant going for long enough to get a pup forming in the variegated area. This is so far up the plant, I think poor old mama is going to need all the help she can get so I'd love to get your thoughts on this.

Cheers, Paul


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Paul,

It sounds like you are all over trying to produce a varigated pup, I found this article of John Catlins interesting about how he created AztecGold.

Rick

Here is a link that might be useful: AztecGold


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

I was thinking of that Aztec Gold article too, Rick, and it sounds like you were too, Paul. Not much I can add to that, as I've never actually tried the process myself. I occasionally will get a thin stripe of variegation on a leaf and hope that it will pup from that leaf axil and that the pup will be more variegated, but so far it's never happened and I haven't gone to any great lengths to try to force pups out of a high leaf axil. If I did, I think my tendency would be to remove any unvariegated pups while they are still very young, rather than wait and see if they will develop the variegation later on. I think you are right in assuming that it is unlikely to pup that high up otherwise.

Before you go to all that trouble, though, you might want to check those stripes a little closer and make sure they look healthy. Often an isolated stripe of lighter tissue will show viral tendencies, i.e. turn brown easily, etc. That's something you don't want to propagate.


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Hi Rick, hi Lisa, thanks for your info. You're right about John Catlan's 'Aztec Gold' article. I'd been waiting for a chance to try it ever since I read it, then along came mama BT with pinstripes. Here she is with pups, a few minutes ago.
Photobucket

Lisa, after your comment about the health of the tissue in those white stripes, I've had a good close look at them. Not a sign of a blemish anywhere and the white tissue looks really quite robust, like the white tissue in meyendorffii albomarginata, so that bit of it seems hopeful.

As you've suggested, a real problem is that those stripes are very narrow, only 8-12 cells wide in fact (I just couldn't resist sticking it under the microscope), so even if I do get it to pup that far up, the likelihood of getting those white cells included in an axillary meristem is going to be pretty small - a real lottery. Still, I've got a free ticket, and .... hmmmm, the stripe in that lowest leaf is just off centre, so maybe there's a chance .... dream on Paul!

Anyway, I've just been ruthless. Those two pups are now gone and mama has had a feed. Thanks for your help, and I'll let you know if anything happens! Cheers, Paul


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

No worries with the thread-jack Paul, I'm happy to see where this goes and read up on any interesting stuff that comes up. I have Aechmea 'Aztec Gold' so it was with interest that I read that article.
Gosh leisa, what a good eye you have! I had to squint and get really close before i could see the variegations.
Thanks too for the education on F2 and so on. I very recently received a seedling from A. 'Rodco' x A. 'Rodco', which looks like A. lueddemanniana with a slightly pink flush. How would you label that? As for sowing the seed of Neo. 'Blushing Tiger' I might give it a miss then, as limited room and time to care for them is an issue.
Paul, I would be removing the leaves that had no variegation, to expose the white stem just below the affected, variegated leaves, and try forcing/growing the pups from there. If that didn't work, I'd remove the variegated leaf and try growing a pup just above it?
Of course I'm no expert.......(as much as I'd like to be) but don't the pups need to come from the same affected cells as in the variegated leaf?
Keep going on this thread won't you, as I'm enjoying all of this.
B_A


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Re: 'Rodco' x 'Rodco', you can tag it either 'Rodco' F2 or 'Rodco' x self. I'm very surprised that all of Rodco's seedlings were not albino though. I know we've had a similar discussion about Mend too. I don't have Mend but my one attempt to grow Rodco's seeds produced nothing but pure white seedlings (that all died), which is consistant with my and others' experience with albomarginated broms in general, so this is a puzzle to me. If it was Alvarez, that would be a different story.

As to BT, I wouldn't remove any unvariegated leaves from the mother plant, particularly since it doesn't have many leaves to begin with. It needs the foliage to provide food and energy to the emerging pups, and since the goal here is to keep mama alive as long as possible, it doesn't seem like a good idea to limit her reserves. Also, in my experience, exposing the soft white stem tissue is usually not a good idea either, being more likely to cause the plant to give up altogether than to produce a pup there. I would, however, remove any berries from the cup, so that she doesn't have to waste energy supporting those.

It's probably a long shot, but it will be interesting to see if you can do it, Paul. I can't believe you actually counted the cells, LOL. If you have that kind of equipment lying around, you're way ahead of me!


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Hi B_A, hi Lisa,

Thanks again for the extra info. Lisa, I'm with you on the leaves, she doesn't have many left, poor old thing. Great point about the berries - I hadn't thought of that at all. They will be gone in a few minutes. As for counting the cells, my brom-mad mate reckons I'm crackers .... sometimes it's hard to disagree! Cheers, Paul


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Hi Leisa and Paul, I see your point on keeping the leaves. I guess if you had more than one to experiment, you could try a few different ideas, but not so eh?
Ummm, Leisa, I think the A. 'Rodco's might have been inverta, does this describe a plant with variegation in the middle of the leaves, as opposed to Albomarginata, meaning white at the edges? And maybe that is why the seedlings did not turn out as albino. I found this article to try and work it out. http://www.bromsqueensland.com/Aechmealueddemanniana.htm
The A. 'Rodco' I have differs to A. 'Alvarez' as it is a smaller plant and has a pink/red flush through the entire leaf, including the variegation, where A. 'Alvarez' has retained the green colouring. According to the above link, rodco inverta should have brighter pinks and greener greens, so I am at a bit of a loss as to what exactly I have. Oh boy, looks like picture time again. I will start a new thread on this one I think.
Paul, I would love to have a microscope or steroe scope to look in. I studied pest and disease as part of a horticulture course and thoroughly enjoyed the amazing things I saw going on, on the back of leaves!
B_A


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Hi B_A,

I was lucky enough to have a mate working in a teaching lab many years ago when they were throwing out some ancient microscopes. Still works fine, just no new-fangled gizmos. You're right about it being fun to look at some of the stuff. Problem is, it can be a bit like looking up disease symptoms on the internet - sometimes you really wish you hadn't. Take spider mites for example - what a nightmare!

Cheers, Paul


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

B_A, "inverta" just means the opposite of whatever it came from. If it had sported from a variegate like Alvarez, the inverta would be marginated, but if it came from an albomarginated plant like Rodco, then the inverta would have the pink/white stripe down the middle. I usually use the term "medio-picta", as the article does. Technically that may not be entirely correct, as it describes a very specific type of pattern with multiple stripes, but the officially correct term for a broad albino stripe down the center of the leaf is "variegated". Since that can also apply to all different types of variegation as a whole I find it needlessly confusing and prefer the other term.

At any rate, if the parent(s) of your seedling is a Rodco inverta, then that is important information that should be included in the name. It makes sense that a Rodco inverta F2 would be pinkish green and unvariegated in any sense of the word.

Paul, if you think spider mites are bad, try reading about eyelash mites! I guarantee you'll wish you hadn't. ;-)


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Thanks again Lisa. I am learning quite a bit, which is exactly why I joined this forum! thanks heaps. I looked medio-picta up previously, as it was a term I'm unfamiliar with. I need to get a bigger journal for my notes. LOL
Paul, yes! It was like looking at a veritable zoo when looking at leaves under the stereo scope, and quite often there was more than one pest, accompanied by beneficials, and dead carcasses! How about exploded aphids? They were pretty interesting. The only problem I had was getting sore eyes, because I'd forget to blink! Watching crawlers coming out from under scale is pretty creepy!
Lucky you to get your equipment for free. Who care about new fangled gizmos, as often the older gizmos have less to go wrong with them.
B_A


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Hi again. Lisa, those eye-lash mites are just revolting - what a lifestyle! And B_A, I've never seen scale crawlers emerging - that must have taken some serious watching. Just love the idea of exploding aphids. Cheers, Paul


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Hmmmm great topic....

Strangly enough my BT is going to bloom, its the middle of winter here!

Cheers

Dennis


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Yes, great discussion guys...Lisa (or anyone else?), I was wondering if you knew whether Neo. 'Screaming Tiger' is also a "selfer" and whether it's F2 progeny from seed would suffer same dull colours / poor zonations etc as BT ?

Cheers, Graeme
(currently sharing a bed with fav broms in chilly kiwiland ...grrrr)


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Greame, my Screaming Tiger did not self pollinate and it flowered in the middle of Summer under the most favourable conditions.

And Dennis, my BT is also pushing a flower - most frustrating this time of the year! Fortunately I had a friend's plant in flower during December to work with a little!

Japie


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Graeme, I'm sorry, my mind must have been with the Tiger allready while my fingers were still busy with you!

Japie


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Graeme, Screaming Tiger is not a habitual selfer, which is one reason I prefer working with it. It must not be self-incompatible, though, since I saw a rather interesting F2 of it at Sharon Petersen's a while back. I don't know if it blushes and she couldn't remember either. Sorry about the fuzzy picture, but don't you love those fine lines? I'll have to get back over there and see how this one's doing.

Photobucket

As long as I'm posting pics, here's one of ST on the right and BT on the left. ST seems to hold its zonation better than BT when it blooms, at least for me (another reason I prefer working with it).

Photobucket

I actually crossed the two, hoping to turn the recessive zonation and cup color into dominant traits by reinforcement. No such luck. Out of a very large grex there were only a very small handful with decent zonation. All of them had poor form, as BT's offspring for some reason almost always come out with very narrow leaves (yet another reason it's a poor parent), and the one on the left is the only one of that inherited both the tiger stripes and the blush. Not as nice as either parent, but I still want to play with it to see if I can reinforce those traits.

Photobucket

Still, you can occasionally get a good cross using BT. Skotak crossed it with Hannibal Lecter, and this clone was selected from that grex by Michael Kiehl, who named it BAM! Very strong, firm, symmetrical plant with good markings........ but still no red cup.

Photobucket

I've gotten one or two worth keeping too, like Blueberry Tiger. It does have the @*%! narrow leaves and no cup color, but the bold stripes make up for it. BT on lower right, BBT on upper left below. The one on the upper right is Mahogany Ripple, which also has BT in the mix. On the lower left is Groves' Hannibal L x Foster's Pink tips, still one of my favorite zonates!

Photobucket


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Hi Lisa, that's a really interesting series - thanks for the pics and the info. I wish I had seen a few more of those over here in Oz - some really nice plants. Cheers, Paul


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Ditto Paul...thanks so much for the awesome pics and your comments Lisa. I nearly died looking at your BBT and the Groves Pink tips. We just don't get those type plants at ALL in NZ, which is a shame...(will have rectify that I think, would love to buy some seed one day if poss ?!? ;-)

I have some ST seed I am going to try that was hand pollinated (not selfed), so will be interesting to see what happens.

Just wondering Lisa...are there any other good selfers you know of in any of the Tiger type/zonate ranges of hybrids ? (other than BT and HL hybrids - Clarice etc). ie; would the Skotak BAM using BT and HL also be a selfer like it's parents and give good looking progeny?

Cheers, Graeme


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

This is my first bloom on BAM, Graeme, so I don't know yet if it's a selfer but it certainly wouldn't surprise me, given its parents. HL will sometimes self but not always. BT always does, and so does BBT and Unblushing T. I grew out quite a few of the BBT F2s and there were quite a few zonates in there, but the form on most of them was pretty lax and spindly, so they met the trash pile.

I don't know how far down the line the selfing trait gets carried. BT's daddy was an F2 of Marnier-Lapostolle, so that one selfs. Presumably it inherited that trait from zonata, which also selfs. In fact the only major difference between BT and ST is the zonata genes in BT.

HL x FPT is also a selfer, which I found out after I had loaded it up with other pollen! Looking at the seedlings, though, a lot of them look like the cross took, so it's not a major setback, just something to keep in mind. What is more of an issue is that it doesn't seem to want to pass on its zonation. I heard this secondhand while I was still waiting to see the results of my crosses, and they pretty much confirm it. There's a few, but so far none look like they are going to be a nice as mommy. This includes the F2s, crosses with Tiger, BT, Punctate, etc. They're still young so anything could happen, but I'm not holding my breath. BT was the one and only zonate in its grex but it showed its stripes very early on, as is common for zonates. I figure if I don't see anything by the time they're ready to pot up into 4" pots, out they go!

When you're dealing with these kinds of recessive traits, getting all the ones you want in one place is kind of like herding cats.... or doing Rubik's cube. Of course if it were easy somebody would have done it by now! ;-)


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Thanks Lisa for your informative reply. Yes i know what you mean...the hunt for the next "zonata supastar" goes on. It's a shame it all takes so long and there are so many "failures" along the way. But, I guess that's why we all love doing this though aye ?!

One other question, (albeit a slightly different topic that I am sure many others may be interested in your answer)...if "any" Neo HYBRID "self-sets" seed (other than those listed above that are proven), will the seed ALWAYS be fertile (ie; grow into something resembling mum ?)...or, if the seeds are germinated can you often expect nothing happen ?
Just wondered in your experiences if there were any rules/ guidelines to this phenomenon to look out for ??...eg; colour/size of ovary/sepals etc ??


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

I'm not sure I quite understand your last question, Graeme. Are you asking about seed viability or about whether or not they will come true to the parent?

No seed from any hybrid can be expected to "grow into something resembling mum", until you get to about the F20 or F30 generation where it's been crossed with itself so many times that the genetics have become stabilized and it acts more like a species than a hybrid.

As to viability, not all of the flowers that are pollinated will set seed, and of those that do, not all of it will be viable. Sometimes you'll get seed set but it won't germinate. In hybrids it can sometimes be an indication that the parents are not compatible, particularly in bigeneric crosses. Other times, though, it's just a mystery.

Off the top of my head I can't think of any self-pollinating hybrids that habitually produce "blanks", but I've certainly had that experience with (self-pollinating) species. Not Neos so much as other genera.

In broms that normally have fairly large seeds you can sometimes tell just by looking at them that something's not right, particularly if they look unusually flat or dark or shrivelled. With Neos, though, it's usually pretty hard to tell anything's wrong until you sow them and nothing comes up, or they turn all moldy.

Age can be a factor too. Many brom seeds can lose viability in a matter of months, particularly if they're sealed in airtight containers. Fresher is always better.


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

I'm with all you others! lisa, that Neo. 'Blueberry Tiger' is gorgeous! Have you ever managed to get a plant to f20 yet?
To all you Kiwis, depending on where you are exactly, Brrrrrr!
Dennis and Japie, what part of the world are you in?
I'm liking that Neo. 'Screaming Tiger' too, but not as much as BBT
B_A


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Thanks Lisa, you ended up answering most of what I asked in the end I think....but just in case you can add anything else into the pot ?? ;-)....

Firstly, sorry for confusing things a little by mentioning "resembles mum". I realise that wouldn't be the case, I was more meaning....
(a) if ANY hybrid DOES self-set seed (ie; is a "selfer")...would it ALWAYS be fertile to sow and would it normally always create something resembling the plant it came from?...and....
(b)if there was any way you could tell from looking at the Neo. seed capsule or seed itself, whether the seed is worth squeezing out to try or not ?...(ie; if the seed looks normal and is rusty brown/dark in colour and is a solid seed - then it IS definitely worth a go....or is there something else you could check to do with either the complete Neo. ovary (size/shape/mass/colour?)...OR, the (shape/form/mass/colour) of the individual seeds....OR, amount of seed that comes out, that would give a clue it is a "NO GO" and infertile?)

I had heard that if "some" types of Neo hybrid self-set, their seed wouldn't be fertile, so it wouldn't even be worth even trying to germinate it (kind of like trying seed from the albomarginated hybrids, which will always give albino seedlings that will die, so no point right ?).

...Lots of questions I know, but sometimes the smallest thing and someone with alot of experience can make a difference here, that would save a lot of us wasted time .....and not to mention wasted propagator space! ;-)

Anyone else have anything to add ?

Cheers G


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Speaking of spurious zonation, I have Apollo's Poetry (Emily x Rainbow) and it really shows some nice zonation and neither parent shows any zonation. So I asked Jason what's up and he says the Rainbow that he used had some zonation. BTW, A-P selfs.


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

B_A & Graeme, I'm glad you like Blueberry Tiger! I like that plant a lot despite its little quirks. It's just as much of a mad pupper as papa BT (if not more so), so it should be making the rounds of your part of the world before too much longer. (BTW, Japie and Dennis are both in South Africa)

I'm not sure what more I can say to your questions, Graeme. I think we may be using terms somewhat differently so that's a bit confusing. For example, seed from albomarginated plants is not infertile. It germinates just fine, but once it does the lack of chlorophyll makes the seedlings die off at about the 3 leaf stage. There are some albomarginated selfers, like Milagro, so I wouldn't waste any time trying to grow those. Otherwise it's mostly just trial and error, and it doesn't take that much time or space to find out. If your seed doesn't germinate within about a month after sowing, throw the pot out!


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Apollo's Poetry

We must have been posting at the same time, Nick. That Apollo's Poetry is a nice looking plant. It looks much better in your pic than in Jason's! This tends to confirm what I've always suspected, which is that some of his hybrids could look much nicer than they appear on FCBS if he would just grow them a little harder.

I'm surprised at the amount of zonation on it too. My Rainbow has just a bit at the tips so I haven't been inspired to do much with it, but I may have to rethink that. I've crossed Tiger (which is much more zonated than Rainbow) with all kinds of things and it generally loses its stripes in the cross unless it's crossed with another zonate. If Emily had some hidden zonation in its background it would be less surprising, but there is none (unless Green Apple has some ampullacea or something in it, which seems doubtful). Interesting.......


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Milagro makes a good pollen parent as do some of the other selfers


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Jason

Lisa, do you think Ae fendleri x N 'Apollo's Poetry' will be zonated? In any case it should have blue flowers! Although, I'm not sure I have the patience or room to find out.


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Sorry for the confusion back there Lisa. I thought as much re what you have added - I just wondered if there were any other "little secrets" re the subject that may have sprung to mind. Anyway, thanks for the info, much appreciated. :-)
Graeme


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

I doubt it, Nick. You might get some dark speckling but that's about it. Yes, it will probably have blue flowers, but no spike, just a mound in the center. Ae. fendleri is not a selfer (at least my clone isn't). I once grew out some open-pollinated seed from it expecting to get a bunch of fendleri babies, but they were all hybrid. About 90% of them had crossed with dichlamydea v. trinitensis, for which it has a particular affinity. There were a couple other Aechmeas that made it into the mix, but also a couple of Neos too. One of them must have been Dexter's Pride, the foliage looked very much like that, and the other may have been cruenta or something with red tips. Kind of interesting, but they didn't get me too excited.

Somebody should try crossing HL with some other genera though, just to see if you could pass on the zonation. That one seems to transmit it a bit better than most, but it still gets lost most of the time with a non-zonated partner.

Can't think of any other little secrets at the moment, Graeme, but if anyone else has some, jump in!


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

well hello everyone,i was most interested in all the discussion on Neo.B.T and all of the plants shown are slightly differerent to mine,i have no idea yet on how to post a photo so that will have to wait ,but mine have broader leaves and much more of an orange tone,and when selfed the bulk are nicely zonated BUT yes narrow leaves,my B.T also exhibits very good zonation all over.So how variable is this delightfull little plant according to location, fertilizer etc?By the way i should introduce myself,I am Jacob Koning and i am a MAD Vriesea hybridizer of the foliage types,you can see some of my humble resultys on FCBS,must say that i am most impressed with the responses about Neo.BT,


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Jacob,

Welcome, we have all drooled over some of the Vrieseas that you have created that Kerry has posted pictures of previously.

I read a great article about your Vriesea Hybridising in Nov/Dec 08 Bromeletter, is there any chance of you summerising some of those points in a new post?

Thanks,

Rick


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Hi Guys

Rick I agree!

Welcome Jacob!


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Yes, welcome Jacob, or is it Jack? We've all admired your Vrieseas on FCBS. You must have unlimited patience, I dabbled in them for a while, but their slow pace drove me 'round the bend!

I'm glad you got a good number of zonates in your BT F2s. I only tried growing them out once, and the only keeper for me was UnBT. Do any of yours blush?

There have been many threads on how to post pictures. The link below is one of them. I don't know why the GW doesn't just put instructions at the top of the page!

Here is a link that might be useful: How to post photos


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Welcome to the bromeliad forum, Jack. I'll second Rick and Lisa's sentiments- I think we've all enjoyed the photos of your Vriesea hybrids here on the forum, and on the fcbs.
This has been a fascinating thread. A special thanks, Lisa, for sharing your experiences with us so openly. Knowing BT's traits helps me understand the results I'm starting to see here. I had my first opportunity to hybridize some of the little banded buggers only two years ago. I used 'BT' only as a pollen parent with a couple of plants. First seed parent was 'Punctate Red'. It seems difficult to believe that you could cross two banded parents, and not be guaranteed banded offspring! I'd say about 50% are showing some signs of banding, but only a handful are showing any sign of promising results so far. Some are still too small to pass judgement one way or the other, but knowing what I have learned here, I'll feel less guilt when I get around to the culling process.
The other seed parent was 'Hatsumi'. So far, it's a total disappointment. Not only no banding, but none of the "marbled" appearance of 'Hatsumi'. I don't know how long I should wait before I just give up on that cross. Any suggestions?

My two cents worth on the discussion of 'Rodco' offspring- if no variegation is evident, then it's practically identical to any other plain old Ae. luddemanniana.

Paul


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

hello all and sundry,thank you for your kind comments on my Vrieseas,Yes Lisa i do have alot of patience but will admit it would be helpfull if they where just a tad faster growing,and thank you for the photo link i will see what i can do, you see i have only just got a computer and its a new experience for me,i will try to answer a few items here;i would expect very few B.T s x self to blush,due to the Neo,zonata in its heritage (once)now if you then self the plant Neo.zonata effectifly appears twice this my not neccesarely improve the banding potential but will counteract the blushing ability as it is stronger that the Neo,carolinea 's ability to blush ,also the self polinating trait of the zonata is very dominant,what you have to realise is that although you may cross A and B ,you really are sleeping with the whole family so look at what the background is.i used to breed orchids ,hippeastrums,eppiphyllums,gloxinia's and found that some traits are picked up even if 5 generations removed,by one of the other parents so if you use a plant that "unlocks" these secrets mark it as such (thats why you should write it all down)its generally the pollen parent),cause that is a valuable asset,in general its the pollen parent that influences the colours and pod parent that influences shape and size;bearing in mind that it does not mean a big plant will make big plants :Vr.gigantea makes plants smaller than itself BUT IT STILL INFLUENCES SHAPE AND SIZE,if it where all easy and certain than we would have champion plants up to our eyeballs ,I like Vr,fenestralis but it takes a second generation to bring out the hidden colour influences,i also know that without Vr.gigantea i would produce narrow leaved hybrids only but i try to stay away from Var,seideliana (ex Nova )far to many problems with that beast in general ,but each to their own ,as for your question Rick it would be best if you ask a question(S) directly in regards to my article and i will see if i can answer it,i keep no secrets at all so will do my best .thank you all again,bye for now


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Hi Jacob (again),

I had no idea who "vriesea" was until I opened this post.

The first post I opened this morning was my own; "Surprise!" to see if I had any responses and read what you had posted.

You certainly join our ranks with a great reputation and I'm sure you and your experience, especially in the Vriesea hybridization field will be well received on this forum.

As for posting pic's; well, being computer illiterate I had heaps of trouble with it at first but with various help from this forum and finally a personal email lesson from Kerry I managed to learn how to use it.

Give Kerry a call and ask her for the lesson she gave Nev. and I'm sure she'll be pleased to help you.

All the best, Nev.


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Jack, what you say about zonata suppressing carolinae's blushing tendencies certainly has the ring of truth. Is zonata more likely to do this than ampullacea though? Or would you say all zonated species are about equal in this regard?


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

Hello Lisa (every one calls me Jack) i have found in my limited experience with Neo's that all the zonated species limit the blushing ability of the other parents ,sure you will get the odd seedling that has some but thats the exception,pity as its such a nice feature,but its not all that easy to get good zonation,unless you use 2 plants with that feature e.g hannibal lector,charcaradon Tiger will not do it on its own very well,and no blushing


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RE: I need the expert on Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'

That is consistant with what I've been finding too, Jack. It just seems like when you DO get the odd seedling that has both zonation and cup color you should be able to cross it with another one that has both of those traits and increase your odds. So far, however, preliminary results haven't been very encouraging. I keep trying, though!

Sorry Paul, I forgot to respond to your comments before. I'm a bit surprised that BT crossed with Punctate Red didn't produce more zonates. I crossed BT with Punctate (standard yellow form) and got quite a few, as did Michael K with the same cross. No blushers though, at least so far.

Funny, I tried a similar cross to your second one, but with Pink Mosaic instead of Hatsumi. I don't know what posessed me to do that, just idle curiosity I guess. Got nothing, nada, zilch, and don't plan to try anything similar any time soon. ;-)


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