Gooday Allan ,Jack here,how are you mate? you may be on to something here , i certainly would not be unhappy about that idea, there are an awfull lot of things registered that on closer observation are no improvement on anything, by the way that's a ripper plant (the variegata) it is a worthwhile plant for sure.I would pay to see it registerd, cheers Jack

I am going to ask for the following. Any major changes in the future to the BSI should be voted on by the whole membership not select few people. Or all issues to be voted be posted 30 days prior to the vote be posted to the site. And all the board and officers vote in writing. With the internet that is an easy task. Minutes of all meetings including voting should be posted to the BSI site. Along with a monthly finacial report. We aren't a secret society.
The BCR is a major issue. Paying for registrations? Who decides where that money is used? What is next paying the board and officers? And what about all the other volunteer work that is done. I would pay to have the BCR restored to the FCBS site. That is something that did work.
The BSI site needs much work. The store for one and updated BCR list(last one in 2008?

An interesting idea to contemplate and discuss. And that alone, contemplating and discussing, seems prudent for any decision. The biggest hazard that jumps into my head at first glance is what to do about the substantial registered list already? I agree that it might work well going forward, but should there also be a 'weeding out' of the current list? Should there be some requirement of the plant still existing or at least a certain number of specimen? Should there be a legacy list that is separate? Are multiple lists useful or simply confusing?

Also, what about registering plants that someone else hybridized? Who would pay the fee?

Interesting idea, but you have to ask yourself what would be the incentive to register then? Frankly, I'd be just as happy sending a photo and parentage to FCBS to have it posted for free. I'd even be willing to pay a nominal yearly membership fee for the priviledge of doing so, just to support that site and its volunteer efforts.

At $25 a crack, however, there's no way I would continue submitting registrations as I have been, particularly with the BCR currently lacking a search engine or photo index database. I've got about 100 cvs. already registered, and probably at least that many pending, with more in the works. Is that worth $2,500 to me? Not even close! What am I getting out of that? Aside from wanting to help boost my distributor's sales with the photo index, the main reason I've been registering is because there has been an increased pressure to do so. The idea that it is somehow ethically irresponsible to release a plant without a registered name has been pounded into everyone's heads for the last several years, so I've been doing my best to play along with the system.

Are we now going to suddenly switch from that mind-set to one where we are trying to discourage people from registering? In my opinion both extremes are wrongheaded. I don't have a concrete solution in mind, but what I'd like to see is a cessation of the stigma applied to selling unregistered plants (including those still under formula), but continued encouragement for hybridizers to strive for excellence, cull hard, and register only the very best. I feel that should be the official party line, rather than "Register! Register! Register!", but if you make people jump through too many hoops they'll stop doing it altogether. Then we'll be back to the bad old days when many good hybrids never got registered-- which the last several registrars have been paying for by having to spend time attempting to track down information long after the fact.

We have to find some middle ground here. For now, my feeling is that registration should be kept fairly easy and painless, but that the message of the BCR be changed. I'd like to see an occasional article in the Journal urging restraint and judicious selection on the part of breeders, but in the end, the decision is really up to them. This includes whether or not to register, and if the hybridizer him/herself has decided NOT to register a cultivar, then that should be respected. I don't believe that others should be allowed to register a hybrid that they didn't make, unless they have received express permission from the breeder to do so. I suspect that if the BCR had a policy in writing stating that, it would do quite a bit to calm down some of the recent registration frenzy. I have complained to the last two registrars about plants that I've sold under formula being given cv. names by others without my permission, but have been told, essentially, that it's my own fault for not having registered them, and that if I wanted to keep that from happening again I'd better register everything but the kitchen sink! So I've been trying to do the "right thing". Change that message and that policy, and I believe hybridizers will feel free to be more selective in what they submit for registration, fee or no fee.

BTW, I agree those are great-looking Bills! Definitely worth registering.

A while back, I think there was somebody that wanted to register several thousand bromeliads and I understand that those in charge (at the time) said that you can register several hundred/year for free (I can't remember the exact number) and after that you had to pay. Naturally, the pay issue stopped the registration of the several thousand.

I think registration should be quick, easy and free.

Hi everyone,

I realise it's easy to just look for negatives in any new proposals and I also realise that if we didn't try new things we would probably all still be living in caves eating raw meat. But I still think we need to look at how change will affect everyone concerned before we rush in.

I agree with most of what's already been said but it's time for me to beat my drum on a few points also.

1. Allan, you suggest a fee of $25 dollars per plant. This doesn't seem unreasonable until you stop and think that quite a few people are turning their hand to hybridizing in their retirement, and it's a hobby, not a money earning business. Because these growers are no longer working and earning a wage each week, $25 now doesn't seem so insignificant.

2. The suggested fee would only deter the growers with limited funds from being able to pay the registration fee, therefore no registered plants from them!
On the other hand the growers who were "well off" and had plent of money could still afford to register anything they so desired, therefore all of the rubbish could still continue to be registered.

3. $25A or $25US doesn't seem an awful lot to pay but what about people from countries where this amount can represent a weeks wages?

4. I think having free registrations encourages the promotion of the constitution as mentioned in part by HDD in a previous post i.e. "The purposes of this society are to promote and maintain public and scientific interest in the research, development, preservation, and distribution of bromeliads, both natural and hybrid, throughout the world, and to promote fellowship."
In other words registration is an option for everyone and doesn't descriminate against those who can't afford it and to impose a fee would create two distinct groups; those who can afford to register and those who can't.

5. As I understand, BSI is still a voluntary organization and I imagine like all other voluntary organizations has trouble filling positions, so who will be responsible for the fee collection, an extra office bearer? If so will someone put their hand up to do the job? Or will it fall onto the shoulders of the secretary or the treasurer, adding to their already heavy work load?

Who ever does it, someone still needs to collect the money, write receipts, keep a record of the payments, and be accountable.

Another possibility for BSI is to only allow members of that organization to register plants, "heaven forbid". I think before we rush into charging a fee for registration, we should look first at the whole picture; as it was, as it is and how it could be.

The system that existed seemed to deliver a service to everyone, so if it ain't broke, why fix it?

All the best, Nev.

Hi everyone,yes i can see both sides of the coin, for me the cost is no handicap,but yes for someone where wages are poor it would then become 'elitest' i have no trouble with some sort of fee if that' would be needed,the present system was good, and as Lisa states,we are pressured in to it as we are told 'do it' it would be a pity to not have the present system ,and i can't understand why this split has occured,yes i know that sometimes its hard to fill positions for certain jobs ,I merely stated that i would be happy with paying something but that does not mean that its the right way for all,and as Nev states 'if it aint broke why fix it ? at the end of the day,there are lots of plants both bromeliads and orchids that allthough not registerd are so universally known by their name that registration would have no impact ,for instance the beautifull Vr 'Patrice'all knew it but it took a long time to register it and yes i see and agree Lisa that when a plant is sold under the formula name that you have that problem of someone else naming it, but when they claim to be the originator i get a 'bit' upset , i have registered a couple of plants on behalf of my good friend Bob Larnach ,whom is not a well man(had both kidneys removed)and he was quite happy with it but i do give him credence for being the hybridiser ,i am merely the grower /owner of the plant.I can see that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and for some one who has produced a few hybrids out of a given cross for the first time that all though they may lack alot,their pride in them would want them to register,that is sometimes lack of experience, My Vr'Milky Way' was known by that name for 20 years or so before it got registered ,but its reasonably distinctive so that made no difference ,the beauty of the fcbs and registration is that we can all have a look,see what does what (if parentage is disclosed and it should be ) and do we wish to go down a similar road,it would be a pity to lose that, one way or another, by the same token if they said'would i make a donation towards cost to keep it going ? yes i would so that in poor countries they can have access for free ,I see NO reason why there should be a stigma attached to selling a plant(s) under formula Lisa and agree that its better to cull hard and be selective ,i am about to sell a few of my eccess Vr.seedlings (adult size) they are very nice but i do not wish to keep them all,but are to good to compost,so yes they will go by formula ,i will just name a few of the better ones.and even without the system, i will and would still give a good plant a name (for my purposes) one thing,we should never have got rid of grex names,still works brilliantly for Orchids.the back log now of plants present and past to sort out for registration is a problem ,some plants are on the site with ? as a i.d, for instance ,Vr.'Angela' by Lou Forrest ,ITS NOT A PLATYNEMA ? HYBRID. ITS Vr.Brentwood x Vr.fosteriana "Red chestnut" i knew Lou very well and knew the cross he made , anyway its good to see the debate ,and at the end of the day that's a good thing ,we can thereby all get each others feelings on topics ,discussion is better than discontent and dissagreement,Bye everyone i am of to work ,have a great day all of you .Jack

Hi All, glad to see some constructive comments.
Hi Jack, I had a feeling "vriesea" was your user name, especially when I say an image you posted with a few of the girls and of course yourself. lol. I realize you have some out standing hybrids which would benefit from a more regulated registration.

"minxie" I also agree that the committee would benefit from putting many decisions to the vote of members, as they are only representatives of the members not owners of the Society.
Taking this in mind would point out the reason many people want to register seedlings is to gain some status, so as to sell on ebay etc., and what I am proposing will disadvantage those only in this for the $$$, though would advantage genuine hybridizers, who have created a quality product, and would like to ask a better price for their product. This begs the question what is the registration process intended to do???????????

"sdandy" there is no need to do anything with the already registered plants as they will sort them selves out with time, ie if they are worthy of registration now then they will also be popular with collectors and general gardeners, hence they will remain in circulation eg Aechmea Lucky Stripes, though the bulk of non-descript hybrids will loose popularity as the new registered seedlings (if the selection process has been successful?) will have greater appeal and will be found in a NEW separate data base, with well organized search engine, features being introduced into the database as a consequence of the extra funds available for putting back into the registration process.

"lisaclv " I have no problem with what you say, though am sure if a registration process was set up with a fee yet to be determined? would create a list of plants which would stand out more than what currently has been circulating. With time this list would hold a status in (I feel) all peoples minds that these plants do stand out more and competition between hybridizers would create more appeal for registration under this system.
I feel atleast 1/2 the money derived from registration would have to be put back into the data base and search engine friendly appeal of the data. I would not like to see the BSI or any other body take this as a source of revenue and squander it on conferences etc., when the database is such a popular item.

I started hybridizing 35 years ago and have produced many thousands of bromeliads from seed which included variegated Vriesea like hieroglyphica, fosteriana, fenestralis, Aechmea fasciata variegates and many others as when I previously grew broms I used misting propagating house which was heated and produced my own seed. In those days I got 99% germination and I would grow most of them to maturity or at least to a size where their foliage features were obvious.
I felt no need to register seedlings as my breeding goals were based in mass production of uniform seedlings which had popular appeal. The collectors market was very limited in those days.
I have since seen some of my old seedlings on the BSI and FCBS sites with incorrect parents and as I am busy with other work do not feel I need to correct the data which others chose to put up on these sites.
IF both registration processes were installed ie the old and the new (running side by side) then would expect most people to go with the old, until the new one started to show excellence, which local collectors and gardeners would gravitate to. Though I am more in favor of only one registration process being maintained. And yes lisa, I also like some of your registrations and am sure they will stand the test of time.

"bromadams" I was around when the registartion process was in its early days and in those days very few people grew bromeliads from seed and hence the few hybridizers who wanted to show case their new creations were happy to put them in a database for all to see, these days many collectors and hobbiests grow broms from seed and as a consequence there are literally millions of hybrids being put on the market, many of them to me show very little uniqueness or distinction from what is already available.

So culling of seedlings for registration hopefully would help get both more distinct plants as well as hopefully a standard where vigor, temperature tolerance, foliage and flower color features becoming more a "yard stick" so to speak for future hybridizing.

Hi Nev (splinter1804) I agree again with you, though use the model of the daylily society, where many pensioners including friends of mine would regularly find their money to up their new seedlings up for registration. When backed up with previous proven track record of hybridizer, often meant that those seedlings got a disproportionate higher amount of status, hence better sale prices, though often unfortunately the hybridizer lacking selling skills often missed out, while others capitalized on their status.

"3. $25A or $25US doesn't seem an awful lot to pay but what about people from countries where this amount can represent a weeks wages?"
I hate to say this though, the main groups or people we are talking about are not the poor 3rd world workers who often do the work in hybridizers gardens, but the more affluent individuals who can afford the luxury of growing decorative plants for personal satisfaction. This fee is only a suggestion and it may be even higher if cost of paid wages are incorporated in making this process work?

"5. As I understand, BSI is still a voluntary organization and I imagine like all other voluntary organizations has trouble filling positions".
To run this process professionally I feel that paying people to do this work is a question which has to be looked at and the current voluntary support would be good candidates for the paid job , though the roles with in the organization (being nor for profit) would have to be looked at .

"Who ever does it, someone still needs to collect the money, write receipts, keep a record of the payments, and be accountable." I agree and making this a paid position is not out of the question, even if it has to be contracted to a person out side the organization who possibly was a volunteer previously doing this job?

And yea I agree with Jack in that with a more rigorous registration process and more selection in plants being offered for registration (due to the cost of registration?) then the data would become more meaningful as well as available.
Ownership of the data base is a separate question and am not looking at that here.
This is my only opinion, as you all realize, though if the current system is not replaced? then I will not bother registering stock as I feel it is meaningless.

Am sure I may have overlooked a few points, though will wait till you have looked at what I have said to clarify the issues involved.

There was a good system in place on FCBS that was free, with a proven track record.
The BSI needs a good house cleaning before it takes on anymore tasks they don't complete.
Seems they have forgotten what they were elected to promote.
The database does need a good cleaning but that will never get done.
Until the BSI lives up to their purpose, no more money should be wasted on the BCR as it now exists.
The BSI track record over the last few years isn't a good one. Its time make changes in the leadership.

With the recent developments at the BSI, it was inevitable that this subject was going to come up. I recently wrote an article titled "Does Every Plant Deserve a Name?" which was just published concurrently in our local society newsletter, and the Greater New Orleans Bromeliad Society newsletter "Potpourri". If you want to read the article online, follow the link below. It begins on page 9. To summarize, I paraphrase a lot of the comments that Lisa and Jack have made. I think that we want to encourage hybridizers to register their best work. When we decide to register a plant, it should be as if we are shouting out to the world "I'm really proud of this plant! I really like it, and I think you're going to like it, too! It's difficult to establish a "value" or "price" on that kind of endorsement. If we work to establish that as a more common philosophy, I think that at least some of the problems would begin to sort themselves out.

I have mixed feelings about charging a fee for registration, or creating more hoops to jump through. Yes, it would discourage frivolous registration of "every seedling in the batch", but there's a fine line where you may discourage some growers from participating in the system at all. That could further perpetuate some of the problems that we're trying to avoid. We all want to see the "Milky Way's" of the bromeliad universe to be registered as soon as it is reasonably possible. And we especially want to avoid the duplicate name issue (ie. Neo. 'Midnight') which occured before the BCR was well established.

While we may not agree on all points, it is good to be having this kind of healthy discussion. At least we begin to see where we share common ground.

Paul

Hi minxie and Paul, have put the issue to the OZ BSI deligate Greg Aizelwood, to discuss with the committee and will leave it here for the time being.
Though was wondering if any one, would have a problem with this forum post being published in our local Gold Coast Succulent and Bromeliad Society journal Qld., Aust. as would like to get feed back from local members? allan

Hi Allan,

I for one think the more views we get on the subject, the better; go for it!

Also, keep us informed of the outcome.

All the best, Nev.

Supply a link in your journal to this thread so all future comments could be viewed.

What a great dialog - it is so heartening to read your ideas and responses.

I do want to clarify one point. The BCR never cost the BSI any money. There was no fee to house it on the Council site and neither the registrar nor the Council webmaster were paid for the work. That amazing document was a labor of love.

All of the pictures linked to the former BCR still exist in the Council's Photo Index. The real loss is in the listings in the BCR that did not have pictures.

I really hope this thread continues! Thank you everyone for your throughtful exchanges.

Thank you all for the comments so far,
Had thought members of this forum may want their user names and forum details left off this post in the article, as the content is what I am interested in, so will wait for more members to say if they would have any objection to any part of the forum info., maksed? by this I mean reference to the forum as; "anonymous bromeliad forum" and forum members referred to as; member 1, member 2, etc,

The article will not go into print untill end of this month so will wait till later this month to ask the editor to include or exclude it from the journal?
IF members of the forum like Nev and minxie would like a link to this thread and forum, please add this to your post.

I realize that all the registration and database info., including images so far in the bromeliad data base has been voluntary so far and I would also like the people involved to be given first choice of acknowledgment &/or paid work if that is the outcome. As well as the money paid in registration, be at least 50% of this cost be put towards the running of the database, The existing data base could be maintained in the event no new data is added to it, as there are many choice plants listed in it and it takes minimal work to keep it on the web as is. cheers allan

Allan I am not sure what existing database you speak of. If its the one on the FCBS site it is staying there from what I have been told. Excluding of course the BCR database.
And I will go on record as being against anything being put on the BSI site. It has no structure and FCBS does. There is no need to pay BSI to experiment and still not produce a working product. We had something that worked. Put it back where it was before someone got vindictive.
Lets get some fellowship back in the BSI leadership before trusting them with anymore major decisions on our behalf. Several of us have tried to have this discussion with BSI leaders and were indirectly told it was none of our business or the emails weren't even answered.

Allan, if you mask the user names are you also planning to go through and mask all name references within the comments? It's not going to do much good to have something like "member #2: Gooday Allan ,Jack here.....", and what about Paul's link to his own article?

As one who enjoys less anonymity on this forum than some of the other members, I have kind of mixed feelings about it. I've had remarks I made here come around to bite me on the backside on more than one occasion, but the beauty of an interactive forum is that it is constantly being added to, and you have a chance to ammend, clarify, apologize if need be, and generally become known by the wider context of your remarks on other threads rather than just a single quote.

Even though we all know this is not a private discussion, the group dynamic here is fairly informal and somewhat social in nature, but once you take it out of that context and print it up and publish it, it becomes a "document" set in stone to be picked apart. It's not a big deal, and I haven't said anything here that I wouldn't say directly to anyone who asked, but like minxie, I think I would be more comfortable having it seen in the proper context, i.e. just supply a link URL and let people look it up for themselves. That way they can see what we're about and even join in the discussion if they want to!

Hi minxie & lisaclv, I have no problem with your comments, both quite appropriate, to answer minxie first,

I have no problem with the Florida Council of Bromeliad Societies (fcbs) owning & running a NEW hybrid data base (DB) [Separate to the existing hybrid DB]
They could organize the registration of plants and hold the funds in their own society and be independent to the BSI.
This new DB could have data like location of grower (nearest city with similar climate) so as to determine if the plant is cold sensitive or not etc., added into the DB ?]

If this is NOT ok with the BSI then they would have to come to a discussion with MEMBERS and the fcbs. if no resolution then either the hybrid DB would either dissolve or the BSI and fcbs would have to make changes in committee, policy etc.
I would also make the statement that in my mnd, who ever holds the hybrid DB will become the more dominant society body. and hence changes in the other would have to happen.

lisaclv, yes if I mask the post for publication, then all references to specific people and personal comments, would have to be removed or replaced with generic terms. I have talked to the publisher of the "Bromlink" journal for the Gold Coast Succulent & Bromeliad Society (GCSBS), Gail who is happy to put it in the journal though will have to have the copy with in 7 days (even though it will not appear in print till September 09) and will wait till I see other comments prior to sending the copy to Gail. Any one wanting to see the final copy I send to Gail can either ask me to send them a copy or I will put up a new post which will include the copy on this forum. allan

I prefer the link be left in tact. I fear it would become to impersonal and would not show the fellowship and information we share here on this site.

Hi Allan,

I'm happy to sit on the fence with what everyone decides, but having said that I agree with minxie in that the present link does emphasise the friendship and information sharing which occurs on our GW site.

It also demonstrates the fact that it isn't just coming from one area, it's from other countries as well, which just may give it more credance and make others take some notice of what's being said.

All the best, Nev.

Hi Allan,

Another good discussion and I certainly don't have the answers. Maybe there aren't fixed answers, and as a number of people have suggested the discussion is the most valuable part of the exercise, simply because people get to see the different sides of the issues.

A couple of points might be worth considering further. The great beauty of a discussion forum like this is that you can keep up with the discussion as it evolves. A statement of the bleedin' obvious I know, but it does mean that as soon as you take a snapshot of it for discussion or publication somewhere else, that snapshot is probably out of date - maybe very out of date if the discussion has moved on a lot by the time you get back to it. The result of all this can be a lot of confusion and 're-inventing the wheel'. So, there is a big benefit in people using a link to access the current discussion directly, rather than looking at an out-of-date snapshot.

On the other hand, I guess it is quite possible that some Society members may not have routine access to a computer, and this prevents them from following the discussion directly? In this case you might argue that taking a printed snapshot of the discussion is the way to go, but then you get the problem of it possibly being way out of date.

Then again, maybe there is some way of getting the best of both worlds, ie access for everyone to the online discussion?

Cheers, Paul

I agree what Nev said, I'm on the fence. I don't strongly feel one way or the other. I just prefer a thought out decision to move forward. Paul had some really good points about different users with different purposes. Frankly, I am new enough that I rely wholly on the FCBS photo index and have not even dug into the BCR. To me, and I would assume anyone relatively new into the world of bromeliads, lists are very limited unless they are either affiliated with or include photographs.

And I would agree with you Allan, that whoever has the better, more powerful database will become innately more useful and successful.
-andy

You bring up a good point, Nev. Over the last few years this forum has become truly international in nature. We have posters from every continent except Antarctica, so regional biases are not given much chance to survive here. We're still waiting for the penguins to start growing broms, but so far it's been kind of a tough sell. ;-)

Allan, I'm not sure I quite understand the gist of your last comments. Are you suggesting that both BSI and FCBS set up competing cultivar registries? I don't see the point or the need for that. The BCR has always been a function of the BSI, and the registrars have been appointed by that body. Maybe flabrom will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Florida Council an affiliate of BSI, or at least representing several affiliate societies?

I see no reason to draw a line in the sand or have Florida secede from the union, so to speak. The two websites have presumably cooperated with each other up until this latest vote was cast, and hopefully when cooler heads prevail they may be able to do so again. If not, then we will at least continue to have the photo index on the FCBS site, which, as far as I'm concerned, is much more useful for most people's purposes than the BCR document that the BSI currently houses. I suspect most hybridizers who want pictures of their plants to be seen online will continue to submit them to FCBS for posting, whether or not they continue to officially register them. I can't see any real advantage to FCBS for them to set up their own "new" registry in addition to this.

If the BSI had been forward-thinking enough to create an online photo database for the registry in the first place, we wouldn't have the current sad situation. I can certainly understand them wanting the BCR on their own site, I suspect it must be kind of embarassing that the global brom community relies on Florida rather than on the international society for this information, but if they wanted to correct that without creating an uproar, they should have set up a comparable database first, and then make the move once that was ready. I do agree with you that the site with the better database will get the most traffic, but I don't think competing registries is the answer. That seems more likely to undermine the legitimacy of either one, as well as exacerbate any internal regional rivalries, which is the exact opposite of the direction I'd like to see things going.

(all together now)
~All we are saying...... is give peace a chance.~

Well we certainly have had some great debate on this,wich is refreshing to say the least,at the end of the day i would say that we all would like a system that is accurate ,easily accesible for the whole world (including Penguins) that is free from internal/external politics ,we all have a common goal after all,yes we all would like to see a bit more judgement as to what gets registered ,it makes for a beautyfull data base to have the fcbs, it gives the world an insight on what can be done and how certain species/hybrids react with others when crossed so for that reason alone its worthwhile ,and so i guess we do get the Good ,The bad and The ugly ,we should only submit the better plants,and leave the also rans out, but if some of the grower(s) themselves dont do it ? its a bit much to expect the registrar to do it (even if he could or wanted to )so its up to us to police ourselves on that i guess , am sure some of us (i certainly have) made the odd cross and by the time the seed is ready ,have thought ;what was i thinking of ? and then just throw the seed out,Registration of hybrids is a good thing ,but your name is stuck with it as well so it is important that you get remembered for a 'class act' so to speak, we can all work together ; so yes give peace a change cheers Jack

Below is a cut of a post from BSI, it reads to me like FCBS will still function pretty much the same.

Rick

by forum_admin » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:02 pm

The BSI is now taking over the task of administering the BCR and we want to thank FCBS for doing it for many years. The FCBS Online Photo Index is a great resource and the BSI will continue to support it as well as the other bromeliad photo galleries that BSI affiliates are hosting.

You should continue to register cultivars with the BSI Cultivar Registrar, Geoff Lawn.

The Florida Council of Bromeliad Societies is not an affiliate of the BSI. At least some of its member societies are affiliates.

The BSI has always had control of the BCR, even though it was physically housed on the FCBS site. It was only recently - when the BCR was taken down - that most people realized it had never lived on the BSI site at all. It was designed that way out of respect for the BSI ownership of the records. Only the BSI Cultivar Registrar modified the records. The Council webmaster's job was to integrate the photographs. Florida's only role here was in the webmaster's creation of the database and housing it on the Council site. The BSI controlled the rest.

Regardless, this is no feud. What is done is done. The BSI does not want the BCR on the Council site. The Council webmaster has honored that wish. What happens now is up to the BSI.

The Council webmaster has no desire to set up a competing registration database - mainly because the authority to approve and assign names is given only to the BSI through ICNCP.

Beyond the BCR, there has not been other web-based collaboration between the Council and the BSI - by the BSI's own decision.

So, no feud. Just two organizations doing their thing to promote bromeliads.

An interesting aspect of this - should the BSI resurrect the BCR online - will it end up on the Members Only page or be available world-wide? I think that is a very serious question that needs to be addressed.

If the BCR is available only to Members only, why would anyone need to register new plants? It won't promote the hybridizers efforts or boost sales because the potential buyers won't have access. Not every one that collects bromeliads belong to BSI. I would venture to say atleast 90% of sales come from non BSI members.

Hi everyone,

As just a backyard grower and not being a member or familiar with the operations of the BSI, I decided to have a look at the BSI web site in view of what's been discussed here recently.

When I opened up the site I was very surprised to see that the By-laws and Standing Rules of the society are still in DRAFT form and have been since they were revised in May 2005.

Surely as this is the basis on which the society is operated it would be a higher priority and more in the interest of members if these By-laws and Standing Rules were finalised before other decisions like the contentious one we are discussing were made.

I know, picky, picky, picky, but there you have it.

All the best, Nev.

Hi All, minxie I feel that the point that you put forward earlier has now been answered ie if you have trouble getting the BSI to communicate with you then put a post like this up on the forum and some one from the BSI will respond Like for instance "flabrom" giving a comment whcih clarifies some of the issues? thank you flabrom for your point.

lisaclv, I am not trying to cause a split in the BSI and the fcbs only putting forward the option that some one can host a DB like this and it will generate its own revenue as well as give more visiblilty to that Society or organization web site. I would like to see a new DB, only in that new data fields could be added which would help me in determining the value of a hybrid in my climate.

Also the value of the forum is also in that it brings up information not previously looked at like Nev has pointed out ie "Surely as this is the basis on which the society is operated it would be a higher priority and more in the interest of members if these By-laws and Standing Rules were finalized before other decisions like the contentious one we are discussing were made."

What I am saying is that the forum has more uses than just talking about each others plants.

I will not put all these posts in the article I wanted feed back from only up to my own post starting with;
* Posted by allan4519 9, Northern NSW Aust (My Page) on
Mon, Aug 3, 09 at 3:34

Hi All, glad to see some constructive comments.
Hi Jack, I had a feeling "vriesea" was your user name, especially when I say an image you posted with a few of the girls and of course yourself. lol. I realize you have some out standing hybrids which would benefit from a more regulated registration.

And I will take out the references to Jack and the obvious comments that are not in keeping with this topic.

A year or so ago, the BSI did set up a committee to review the registration process. I believe its conclusion was to keep things the way they are. I am not sure what work was done on this matter - I did not see the report. One suggestion I did make was that someone contact the American Orchid Society whose registration process is strict and structured - and allows only registered orchids to be entered into shows.

Surely the issues you raise have been addressed by other organizations such as AOS. It would be interesting to see the criteria used - and if fees are charged (and what the purpose of those fees are - to weed out the inferior plants or to pay administrative costs). I know AOS has paid staff - I am not sure about other international organizations such as the Palm Society.

At any rate, anyone wanting to take a serious look at plant registrations might consider researching outside of the bromeliad box.

Hey Allan, to keep it a little less confusing with editing and everything, could you simply summarize some of the comments, questions, and suggestions to completely remove them from the forum context and use them as topics or starting points for other local discussions on the matter? A simple list might be an easier transition to printed documents. Just a thought...
-andy

"I would like to see a new DB, only in that new data fields could be added which would help me in determining the value of a hybrid in my climate."

That seems like the kind of information that can only be determined on a regional basis, Allan. How is a hybridizer in Hawaii or a webmaster in Florida going to know what will do well in NSW or anywhere else? That might be a feature the BSA could work on for their site, but it would be dependant on getting reports from members in different zones who have tried growing them, not from the person registering the plants.

The only thing I would add at this point to the current FCBS database would be a box to indicate whether or not the cultivar has been officially registered. My main use of the online registry thus far has been to check to see if a name I have in mind is already in use. If it is but it hasn't been formally registered, then it's still up for grabs. Minus a photo database, claiming a name seems to be the only real incentive I can think of for continuing to register, but even that doesn't keep anyone else from using the same name on an unregistered plant, so it may not be much of an incentive at all. It's certainly not one that is worth paying a fee for, at least not for me. Of course I don't show plants, so that is not an issue for me, although I can see how it would be for some. My customers don't seem to much care if a plant is registered or not, in fact I doubt that any of my local customers are even aware that such a thing exists! Either they like what they see or they don't.

For those in other parts of the world who have bought my hybrids through other sources, it does seem to make a difference if they have seen a photo of it online, whether it be here on this forum or on FCBS or wherever. Also, for most of my research, such as what combinations seem likely to produce what sort of results, etc., I need the photo index, so to me that's the more valuable service, and one I would be more willing to pay to use (although not $25 per plant!). At any rate, FCBS has not been asking for monetary contributions, so unless they do, that's not really an issue here.

Frankly, at this point, with things in limbo as they are, I'm not sure why we are even having a discussion about ways to cut back on the amount of cvs. being registered. I think that will be a natural outcome of the separation of the BCR from the photo index, so why add a fee to it on top of that? Uncle Derek has said to me that he didn't think that making the registration process more difficult would do anything to improve the quality of the cultivars being submitted, and I think he may be right. Some of the most respected names in hybridizing rarely if ever register their plants, while others seem to feel compelled to submit every mad scientist experiment they produce! I don't think a fee is going to change people's basic human nature.

Now, If the fee is to offset administrative costs, that is a different issue, but so far nobody in the BSI has cited that as a contributory factor to any of the problems that people seem to have with the current system. If I am wrong about that, please explain. It seems to me that before we start offering up all kinds of solutions, we need to first identify specifically what problem it is that we are trying to alleviate. Otherwise the conversation goes off in all directions and doesn't end up anywhere. Kind of like herding cats. ;-)

Hi everyone,

Lisa, you make the point "before we start offering up all kinds of solutions, we need to first identify specifically what problem it is that we are trying to alleviate. Otherwise the conversation goes off in all directions and doesn't end up anywhere. Kind of like herding cats. ;-)".

This hits the nail right on the head. I am sure that a lot of people are quite certain on what the purpose of tools like the BCR and photo index and registration should be, and I am equally sure that a lot of these ideas are different. No wonder these subjects generate so much discussion. As you imply, the only way to get anywhere with it would be to list down the different purposes for each tool, decide which ones are going to be satisfied, then develop and manage the tools in a way that specifically suits these purposes. Sounds like an agenda for some sort of 'global fellowship' body? One that would only actually work if it was managed through some sort of open forum?

Cheers, Paul

Hi All, This is my last post on this issue, have decided not to bother pushing the idea of setting up a DB which would foster excellence, as there are far too many people who are interested in using the implied quality standard & status of a registered name (other wise why would you bother registering a name in the first place, if you could sell every thing you produced?).

Sandy thank you for your suggestion.
Paul, as a vote is necessary to achieve this change am sure, no change will happen as most people are conservative by nature and the idea of putting money where your mouth is is far to scary for most people.

Lisa, "Allan. How is a hybridizer in Hawaii or a webmaster in Florida going to know what will do well in NSW or anywhere else? "
If a person is looking at buying a plant registered as being originally grown at Oahu Hawaii US, and they live in North Carolina US, or the southern states of Australia then they might choose NOT to buy it, if this information was available. While a person in south Florida US or northern Qld., Australia would look at this information and think it is well worth having.

"My main use of the online registry thus far has been to check to see if a name I have in mind is already in use." Yes this is a valid reason for using the online registry.

"Frankly, at this point, with things in limbo as they are, I'm not sure why we are even having a discussion about ways to cut back on the amount of cvs. being registered." Lisa this is a forum? R u taking on the role of spokes person for this forum with this comment???. allan

Allan if members could vote something worth while might get done but since we can't. We depend on the elected officers which up to date have done a terrible job deciding issue's that affect more than the BSI members. They affect the world wide bromelaid community in one way or another. So until we have leadership that takes their responsibilities more serious and way out the consequences of their actions. We will stay in limbo like it has been for the past several years. The BSI needs a serious make over, it is the current problem that needs to be addressed.

Not trying to be a spokesperson, Allan, just doing my best to keep the cats from wandering off in all directions. ;-)

A year or two ago, when there was a huge glut of material being registered, the idea of imposing some kind of controls or making the process a bit more difficult was under discussion quite a bit around here. If you do a forum search, you can find some of those discussions. Now, however, with the recent severing of the registry from the photo index database, it seems like the current issue may be more one of how to keep anybody wanting to register at all.

Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree and make a compelling case.

Hi Guys
Hmmm politics, I'm not sure if I understand what the problem is here other than the fact that we (BSI members) elected Delegates, but the Delegates elected not to discuss such an important issue with it's members. I have had contact at various times over the last six months or so with each of our Delegates (Aus) but at no time did they elect to ask an opinion of a member, therefore I shall elect not to elect either of these Delegates again until such time as they realize that they were in office for the members, not for their own personal opinions, or self importance.
I feel disappointed for all the hard work done by Derek & others over the years & now people seem to think it's all falling apart.
Well no it doesn't have to, don't just complain offer suggestions to help fix the situation instead, for one the way I see it, the BSI is only taking control of Administration of the BCR, as it is we register our hybrids with the BSI now & that goes into the BCR, then the photo's get posted on FCBS, so what is going to change, you don't register hybrids with FCBS it is only a photo index for you to look at pictures to aid in ID's. If this is correct it means you register with the BSI, you send a pretty picture to FCBS for all to see, or any other photo index around the world for that matter, as any site can post your picture, but only the BSI can register your hybrid name, therefore not much is changing as FCBS was & still is only a photo index (I believe that's what's on it's Title page) not FCBS Bromeliad Registry.
I do feel it is time in this day & age of computers that all BSI members should get a copy of the minutes in one form or another so that we know what is happening in our Society, as our Delegates don't seem terribly interested in keeping us informed here at home after the meetings. "Lets be Heard"

Hmmm $25.00 bucks is not going to fix the problem of so many "Neo. Binalotatrash's it's only going to help keep the great load of Neo. Ulanfils out there instead of in land fill. (sorry those names are already taken)

My hat goes off to Lisa for acknowledging in an earlier thread that her little white variegate (as nice as it is) is one of so many like that out there now, so it's not worth adding another one, there's a hybridiser setting a good example worth following, congrats Lisa for self policing, only the best will do.

Back in the early 1900's the Plant World had Expo's where new plants/hybrids were presented & given Awards of Merit etc, so where did this system go, Derek suggested a Certificate of Merit system but nobody was overly excited about this, so it seems to have fallen away ??

Offer a constructive suggestion don't just complain.

My suggestion to Derek & others recently has been to include in local Society Show Competition Schedules, is a section for Best New Hybrid Award (locally produced not imported) with a respectable reward/incentive offered, some of our Societies are pretty well cashed up, so how about the Societies stepping-up & remembering what they are here for, THE PLANTS.
Another section that should be high on the agenda is "Best Species, Seed Grown", forget the hybrids we need to save Species, I thought that's what Societies were, partly, all about.

I don't know that printing this thread in a news letter is the way to go as most Society members aren't members of the BSI, & it probably wouldn't interest most of them anyway as most are just sit on the fencers anyway. I feel it should be sent in it's entireity to all members of the Board with notice, it is our Society not just the elected Delegates & we are interested in what's going on. I know I will be asking our next intending Delegate a few questions before I cast a vote, "where do you stand on the above matters ??".

NO I'm not offering to do this as a Board member has been involved in this discussion, he should step-up & do it, as an elected Delegate it is his position to act on members requests & show the Board we're not happy with the way things are going.

Pinkbroms

Hi Pinkbroms,

Although I'm not a member of BSI (and from what I'm hearing I don't want to become one until there is a change of office), I must agree with what Pinkbroms says.

The BSI board is elected by the members and if it's like other boards, its function should be to listen to the ideas/requests of the membership, represent the membership, make decisions in their best interests and keep them informed of the process/s involved in determining the outcomes.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me there is a big communications gap involved here where the members are not being told the whole story, they are just being told the final outcome but not how/why it evolved.

Just puting in my "two bobs worth", all the best, Nev.

"The BSI board is elected by the members...." I can not remember the last time I had seen a ballot to elect anyone at the BSI. I have been a member for about 20 years. But I am getting old.

Hi turtlewalker,

I guess I blew it again, I know I shouldn't assume and I know the reason why, but I thought the BSI board was elected, just like the boards of any other organisations I've ever been in. Wrong once again, I guess I'll just crawl back into my hole and keep quiet.

All the best, Nev.

Hi all

GW can be very time-consuming, not the least of which is figuring out who you all are. I too was annoyed by the removal of the BCR as I too look it uo frequently for a host of reasons, some already mentioned. As an incumbent board member (not elected, nominated as any BSI member could be) I am sure sense will come out of this but patience is needed. The BCR is the BSI's responsibility as has been mentioned. I suggest you non-members should join the BSI and help fund its programs, which are many and varied, instead of criticising. You might even be nominated to have a turn helping run the show one day.

I would like to know who people are as I don't like the anonymity bit, like with Ebay. Some are obvious. I am Peter Tristram - fdnpedro. Cheers.

"Inaugural BSI Bromeliad Cultivar Registration Awards 2004

Following current BSI Cultivar Registrar Derek Butcher's initial idea for the BSI to formally recognise the achievements of bromeliad hybridists and to encourage more cultivar registrations, the Board of Directors approved the creation and trial of this biennial Award at its June, 2003 annual Board meeting. An interim proposed set of Award criteria (to be ratified by the Board) was printed in JBS 53(5):213 (Sept./Oct.2003).

At the WBC Chicago Banquet, newly-elected President Joyce Brehm announced the winners for their cultivar registrations for the preceding 2-year period (Jan. 2002-Dec. 2003) were John Arden (California), Sharon Petersen (Hawaii) and Vic. Przetocki (Western Australia). Regional Conference delegates accepted the Award Certificates and letters of appreciation on behalf of these first-time recipients who were not in attendance.

Congratulations to these bromeliad breeders, altogether from contrasting backgrounds and with different goals, who have penned their own profiles here."

Nick, as long as you're here, I see you're currently working on some kind of system for including photos with the registry (see link below). How about commenting on that. Will there be a searchable database, cross-referenced by parentage, etc.? I realize it's a lot of work and probably will take some time, but it might calm the restless natives if we knew what you were up to over there at BSI.

Hi everyone,

I'd just like to clear up a point with Peter.

Peter you said "I would like to know who people are as I don't like the anonymity".

I didn't know we had to identify ourselves to participate in this forum, however if that's your wish, I'm Neville Wood, a very small back-yard grower and I stand by everything I've said on this forum, even admitting when I've got it wrong. I can also be contacted by email if required.

My intention was not to offend anyone, but just to add my view from a small hobbyist's point of view on this topic.

I think this forum and its members are a wonderful informative learning tool and the last thing I want to do is to "upset the apple cart".

All the best, Nev.