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Comments (29)

  • bob740
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nice photos. Could we have the names ? Third one is excellent.

  • hotdiggetydam
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    3rd is Royal Burgandy X BArbarian
    second i dont know
    1st is Little Joy

  • LisaCLV
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Second one might be 'Sunday Picnic'.

  • bob740
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If ever the cross parents were evident in a cultivar,this is it. I was thinking 'Barbarian' when I first saw the pic.

  • LisaCLV
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're right, Bob, 'Barbarian' tends to be very dominant in a cross. I just picked up a 'Storm Warning'. Same cross but it looks a bit darker. Very nice.

  • bob740
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lisa,a question..If two people make the same cross,and give different names,they both can be registered ? When actually,its the same plant ? Bob
    [who knows zilch about hybridizing]

  • hotdiggetydam
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I envy you Lisa, Storm warning has been on my list for long time. Also on my list are Royal guard(same cross also)Shinobi, Golden Idol, Gladitor, Crouching Tiger, Old love letters, Walking Thunder, Pearly Shells.
    Bob look up Barbarian as a seed parent and vibrant as pollen parent on FCBS site, it will answer that question.

  • LisaCLV
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bob, this used to be a problem in the old days because the names given were applied to the entire grex, and then if you had several distinct cultivars you had to give them a second name. So if you repeated the same cross that somebody else had made the grex name would have to be the same, even though you could name your own cultivars. Nowadays, though, the standard is to just name the cultivars and forget about the grex. It's MUCH easier that way!

    There are still some grex names around, though. Take, for example, all the Aussie Dreams. At last count there were at least 40 or 50 different Aussie Dream cvs. If we were still using the old system you'd have to include that in the name and call it Neo. Aussie Dream 'Glorious', Aussie Dream 'Lucky Seven', Aussie Dream 'Rosie', etc. etc. And then if somebody in Hawaii or Florida or wherever repeated the cross, all of their plants would have to be Aussie Dreams too, even though they'd never set foot in Australia. Obviously this makes no sense, and there are other problems inherent in it too. Aussie dream is ostensibly Neo. carolinae x olens, but there are a jillion cvs. of carolinae. Most of the variegates were made using a carolinae cv. called 'Mother', but before that there were unvariegated Aussie Dreams, so did Bob Larnach use more than one carolinae, and would that grex name apply to any cv. of carolinae crossed with any olens? To further complicate this, I don't believe for a minute that all of the Aussie Dreams have olens as a parent because some of them exhibit traits that couldn't possibly have come from either of those parents. I think it's a bogus grex to begin with, but that's another story.

    At any rate, nowadays you name the cultivar only. It doesn't matter if a thousand other people have used the exact same two parents, if your cross looks different enough to be distinct, name it.

    The problem is what to do if it doesn't look different enough to be distinct. Obviously you can't call it by someone else's cultivar name because it is not a vegetative clone of the same plant. It may be a twin, but it is not the same plant. The conventional wisdom has been that you should then just destroy it and not release it, but who really does that if they've got something nice? There's no way to enforce it, and it depends a lot on who's in charge of the registry which philosophy gets followed. When Don Beadle was registrar he encouraged hybridizers to only register their best clones and destroy all the rest, but Derek Butcher seems to feel that every hybrid made should be named-- which creates another whole set of problems when all kinds of crappy stuff gets registered and given the best names... ;-)

  • LisaCLV
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hotdiggety, you're just going to have to find a way to get on Sharon's good side! She doesn't sell her broms to the public, but if you're a friend you can get some goodies, as I just did. She's got some amazing unregistered stuff too, including lots of variegates.

  • hotdiggetydam
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I wish I was a friend, never had the pleasure of meeeting her. You and she both create some amazing, awesome plants. The ones I have of Sharon's, I traded for when someone had a pup or purchased some from Micheal

  • bob740
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Holy Cow !! But thanks Lisa for the fascinating explanation . I had no idea,and I'm glad they revised it to name the cultivars,not grex,and only if you want to.
    And I had a great idea,...but how do I get the word out to send me all of the 'crappy stuff'...And I'll 'Destroy' them for everyone,at no charge. [heh heh]
    [oh,I am sooo evil] Bob

    And hdd,I tried what you suggested,and must admit,I could not figure it out using Barbarian and Vibrant on fcbs. Much to learn yet. Bob

  • hotdiggetydam
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    that search brings up the following Neo's
    Fools gold, Sunshine, Sun gold, Patches, Patches Too, Gold lining. All have very different appearances

  • catkim
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Whoa, I could have sworn one of those was my Neo. 'Skylark', but I now see some subtle differences. I really don't know how you guys tell these things apart. As Bob said, much to learn yet.

    Really enjoying your pics, HDD, keep up the good work!

  • LisaCLV
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bob, I'm tempted to tell you to come over here with a pick-up and haul all of the crappy stuff out of my sight! I only want to hang onto things that are earning their keep, so I'm always having to reevaluate what I'm going to give precious space to. When you do a cross, the percentage of seedlings that turns out to be anything good and/or different is pretty small. That is particularly true of Neos. Maybe 1% will be really worth keeping, but there's always some marginal ones that you hang onto for a while before reluctantly launching them in the general direction of the trash pile.

    On the other hand, it's not really good to let a bunch of poor-quality plants get out there. It turns people off to bromeliads in general and in doing so it kills the market for the good stuff. Trust me, I've had friends who started out wanting everything I tossed out, but they always end up tossing them out themselves once they get some good varieties. It really is better to just get rid of them.

    If you just want a bunch of plants, though, the easiest way to get them is to do your own pollinating. It's not difficult at all, and it's a lot of fun learning which combinations produce what. A few cvs. are self-pollinating too, so you don't even have to do anything. This makes them frustrating to someone like me who would like to cross to them, but if you just want to try growing out a bunch of F2s and see what you'll get, it can be interesting. You're already growing some seeds, so I know you know how to do it. That's really the hardest part anyway, so you're halfway there already!

    I'm serious, I'd like to get everybody here trying to make their own crosses, including you, hotdiggety! You've got some primo breeding stock already and you've spent enough time reading the registry and looking at the photo files that I'll bet you have a pretty good idea what varieties make good parents. That'll cut your experimenting time in half, and you can end up with some things that nobody else has!

  • hotdiggetydam
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lisa I would love to give it a try but Im not sure how to begin. Bee's did one for me and I am growing some from seed. Also like you said only 1% are good. In a few years I fear my collection would look like a Frankenstein experiment.

  • hotdiggetydam
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Speaking of the registry, I found nothing on Sunday picnic. Any info on that one lisa?

  • bob740
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lisa,I understand what you are saying.Over the years,I've grown a bit 'picky' about what broms I'll keep around the house.Not always been that way tho,so I have too many plants now,and will soon bring a lot of them to the Bot.Gdns. to fill in some empty spaces.I just made a tour of my broms outside for the summer,and realized that with what I've recently acquired,on top of what I've had,I'm in big trouble for space when they have to come inside. So me and my pick up truck will stay right here,and thus you are stuck with your 'less desireables'.I'll probably get into hybridizing one day soon,as its the next logical progression for this interesting hobby [IE,Work!].
    There's an interesting article in Vol.1,#3 of 'Grande'
    magazine,written by Nate DeLeon,and a follow up by James Elmore in Vol.1,#4.Its title is "A Case for Responsible Hybridizing". All about the pros and cons of it. That mag is long out of print,but may still be available thru old book stores,or the BSI,George Allaria,if any one is interested in the 'early days' of bromeliad collecting in the USA.Only 4 issues were published,so it could be considered a'rare'publication. [see George Allaria at publications@bsi.org ] .I found them all very interesting.Excellent photos too. Again,thanks for your input Lisa,always a pleasure. Bob

  • hotdiggetydam
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the info Lisa and write all you want. Im making a book on your lecture's. I have to email Ray on another matter, I will ask him about Sharons plants too. I thoght I had Old Love Letters pup but sadly its not. The accidental plant oddly was a variegated one. It looks N. Dianne but a soft peach flush all over

  • hotdiggetydam
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OK Im gonna try this soon. Im looking for some illistrations or photos to compare to what I do, sorta insure some kind of success even its Frankie's cousin

  • LisaCLV
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yeah, it's hard to describe without some kind of illustration. I thought maybe somebody on the web would have taken step-by-step pictures of pollination, but I can't find anything. It's hard to even find a close-up that shows the floral structure of a Neoregelia beyond just the petals and bracts. The one in the link was the best I could find. I'm pretty sure my camera won't take that kind of detail, plus which I'm the photographer in the family so it's kind of hard to take a picture of yourself doing something. I'll just have to talk you through it.

    Basically, looking down on the flower there are 6 stamens which come together to form kind of a dome over the stigma in the center. It may look like more in the picture, but what you're looking at is the back part of the anthers (the part of the stamen that holds the pollen), so all you can see of them is like a fuzzy V at the tip of each stamen-- the pollen's on the other side. There will be one corresponding to the center of each petal and one at each juncture of two petals.

    With a pair of tweezers (if you can get some medical forceps with the curved tips, that's the best tool), just grasp the stamen right below the anther and pull it off. If you want to save that pollen to put on another plant, just put it in a little receptacle (I use a film can lid) and be sure to remember which one it is. When you have removed all 6 you should see a single structure (the pistil) right in the middle with kind of a fuzzy tip (the stigma). The stigma may be star-shaped, spiraling or ball-shaped, but it will be symmetrical and look different from the stamens, which are very one-sided. Also the stamens are attached to the petals themselves and the pistil isn't. Otherwise it may be hard to tell the difference since they're all tiny and white. Billbergias and Vrieseas are easier to work with in some respects because the pollen is yellow so you can see it more easily.

    Okay, now pull at least one anther off of whatever plant you've chosen as your pollen parent, and either just brush it against the stigma or actually stick it into the flower so that the pollen side rests against the receptive tip. If you have some to spare, go ahead and stuff a whole bunch of them in there (all the same variety, of course). The more the better, because if you just put one it may fall off or down into the bottom of the flower where it won't do any good. Then you push your little wedge-shaped tag with the daddy's name on it right into the flower. This will also help hold the pollen in place.

    The reason I don't just brush it against the stigma with a Neo is that I'm never 100% sure exactly when it will be the most receptive, and if it's making contact over a long period of time you maximize your odds. Again, with other types of broms, like Vrieseas, you can often see a little droplet of nectar forming on the stigma when it's ready. Neos do this too, but it's a lot harder to see, so I just go by time of day. This may vary in different areas, but here 9-10:00 am is a good time for most Neos. You can tell they're not ready when the flowers first open up because there won't be any pollen-- the anthers will seem hard and smooth. An hour or so later, though, they will be all powdery, so that's when I do it. A few hours after that, the petals will start to curl up, and that's too late.

    If you want to be super careful they don't self-pollinate you can pry the flower open early and emasculate it before the pollen ripens. I usually don't bother, though. I haven't had much of a problem with Neos. self-pollinating except for those varieties that do it every time, and I just don't use those as seed parents.

    Anyway, the best way to learn is just to try it.

    Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:497832}}

  • hotdiggetydam
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow Lisa thats very nice of you to write all that down. OK my next step, to determine self pollinators in my collection. I have one im sure of Lila,(propagates by seed and pups) if the wind blows Lila has babies, but im not complaining I sell alot of Lila off and buy others. Lisa look at the center of the one you call Sunday picnic posted above. Is that a close up enough picture of the center for you to determine anything from? If it is I can photo some centers to use for illistration.

  • hotdiggetydam
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Not a close up but I took this in May because this plant's flowers are pink when it blooms and I have one that blooms red flowrs but I havent found that picture yet.
    {{gwi:497843}}

  • LisaCLV
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't have 'Lila', so I can't comment on that, but if it's a mad pupper and the pups show good color then maybe I should get some for our sales. 'Painted Lady' is a self-pollinator. 'Blushing Tiger' is too. Most of the others that come to mind are just unnamed crosses of mine or friend's, so they wouldn't be in the trade, but I'm sure there are plenty of others out there. I'll see if I can get a picture of BT setting seeds. Every ovary swells up, it's a dead giveaway, but you can't tell that until after it's finished blooming. Your presumed 'Sunday Picnic' in the picture looks like it hasn't started blooming yet, so there's really nothing I can tell from that, but mine didn't self-pollinate. It's only a small percentage (5-10%) that do that, so you might as well just assume they're not S-P until they tell you otherwise.

    The other thing to be aware of is that if you try to use an albo-marginated plant as a seed parent the seedlings will most likely be completely albino and die. On the other hand, if you use a variegate with green margins it will act just like an unvariegated plant. The ones that are unevenly striated with variegation are anyone's guess. Some variegated plants are transmitters of variegation, but most of them aren't. I haven't worked with any of the transmitters yet, but in time.... I'll be playing catch-up when I do, though, because so many others are doing them now. I'm not going to say where I took the picture in the link because I don't have permission to post it, but I'll let you draw your own conclusions. ;-)

    What is the variety in your last pic? It's hard to tell the true flower color. Pinkish-lavender petals are not that unusual, but true pink is, and I can't recall ever seeing red.

    Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:497835}}

  • hotdiggetydam
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    They are true pink I had Oden Head confirm that for me. The plant is Jumping Jack Flash. The Hawaiian Sunburst I have makes red flowers
    This was just a pincushion yesterday, this afetrnoon this is what it looks like. Hope it shows enough detail
    {{gwi:497845}}

  • hotdiggetydam
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Its mine and this one is also unnamed
    {{gwi:497847}}

  • LisaCLV
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like that last one with the purple cup! Am I supposed to be seeing red flowers in that other one, though? They look bluish-lavender to me, or were you just trying to show flower detail? I managed to get a couple of pictures that hopefully will show it better.

    Removing the anthers:

    {{gwi:460121}}

    Putting in the name tag:

    {{gwi:460122}}

    I was trying to get one that showed the stigma, but it didn't come out. As you can see, we have ants. That's kind of a mixed blessing because they can help spread the pollen around, but sometimes they'll pick up a whole anther and carry it off, so wedging the tag in there helps keep everything in place.

    Here's a couple of self-pollinators setting seed--
    Blushing Tiger:

    {{gwi:497848}}

    and Milagro:

    {{gwi:497849}}

    You can see the ovaries swelling at the base of the sepals. Most of the time you can't really see that if only one or two of the flowers are setting seed, but when they all do it it spreads apart and is pretty obvious. They're still green, but they'll be white when they're ripe. A couple of species have red ovaries, but usually they're white. I'd forgotten Milagro was a S-P, but I wouldn't use it as a seed parent anyway because it's albomarginated so it makes albino seedlings. It's a perfectly good pollen parent, though.

    Then this is the moment you wait for-- when a previosly all-green seedling starts showing markings. This is about 3-4" tall, and it's a keeper, at least for now!

    {{gwi:497850}}

  • hotdiggetydam
    Original Author
    17 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That picture was to show early detail of the bloom (plant is Bird rock)and great photos(makes what your saying alot more clear). I still havent found the red bloom picture but I will

  • avane_gw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I saved a link to it, so maybe updating it will keep your instructions on pollination alive forever, Lisa!