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bromadams

if the seed parent is albomarginated...

bromadams
15 years ago

I'm sorry to pick on you Lisa, but I want to refute a statement you made earlier in the year.

* Posted by lisaclv HI (My Page) on Thu, Jan 31, 08 at 0:15

"I will tell you this much: if the seed parent is albomarginated, all of the seedlings will be albino and die."

Well, crazy me, I crossed B 'Kyoto' with N cruenta rubra pollen and got some nice green seedlings. The seedlings may still die, they are quite small, but they are definitely not albino.

Comments (44)

  • udo69
    15 years ago

    Hi Bromadam,

    I think about those Lisa'd mentioned. Everything is probable. Many years ago, I've pollinated some of albomarginated Neo. mom with non variegated pollen. The results were albino and dead. I also crossed my N.Kahala dawn with other non variegated. the results are all green and still grow up. This year I try to cross my Ae.tillandsoides variegated with other Ae. and Neo. The results are the same, easy to germinate but turn albino and gone.

    I think variegated gene's usually on the mother plants and would transfer to it's generation but all gene might not transfer. So The results of your cross are green. I think everything is possible and we should try to do the experiment.

    Regards
    Yong

  • neomea
    15 years ago

    Hi all

    Some seedlings WILL be green. It happens.

    Cheers

    Dennis

  • bromadams
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Hard to say for sure but it looks like about half are albino and half green. 2 of the green ones are way bigger than the rest so I'm sure about them.

  • LisaCLV
    15 years ago

    How about a picture of the seedlings and one of mama?

  • bromadams
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Will do in two weeks when the seedlings are bigger. I put it on the calendar. Don't you want a picture of the proud father? He's obviously dominant.

    FYI, I dropped a pot that had Kyoto x blanchetiana and the sphagnum went all over. I don't know if any were up yet, but I have plenty more seeds and the redo is on.

  • LisaCLV
    15 years ago

    Nope, don't need to see daddy, he had nothing to do with this. A look at any other crosses you made with the same mother would help, though. I just checked my Kyoto and found a couple of narrow stripes of green edge outside of the white margin on a few leaves. If yours is doing the same, that could explain it, so that's what I want to see.

  • LisaCLV
    15 years ago

    As to the seedlings, maybe you could take a picture now and another one in a couple of weeks. If there are some albinos in there they will probably die off before they get very big, and I'd kinda like to see them and see what the ratio is before that happens. You can learn from all of this stuff.

  • bromadams
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Here is mom from back in May. I guess something was chewing on her. The tops got frayed.

    {{gwi:516555}}

  • bromadams
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    And a close up if you want to inspect the edges.

    {{gwi:516556}}

  • bromadams
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    The stud:

    {{gwi:516557}}

  • bromadams
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    I just checked the grex and most are big enough now to make positive identification: 18 albinos and 1 green. I'll see about a pic tomorrow if I have time. These were planted on the 22nd of October. In about 3 weeks my second Kyoto x blanchetiana grex should have some results, the first blanchetiana grex having been spoiled.

    I'll probably add some more seeds to the first grex as that single green guy is going to be lonely soon.

  • LisaCLV
    15 years ago

    Well, I can see a little bit of green edge on one of the upper leaves, and who knows what's going on on the back side where I can't see. If you got 18 albinos and only 1 green, that makes perfect sense to me.

  • hotdiggetydam
    15 years ago

    Any photo's of the seedlings yet?

  • LisaCLV
    15 years ago

    They probably all died except that one, HDD. I like how we started out with "definitely not albino", then went to "about half albino and half green" and ended up with "18 albino and 1 green", LOL.

  • bromadams
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Yeah, all that were not fully green died. Some were not complete albinos, but with only 1 leaf, it's hard to tell. None but the deep green ones made it to two leaves.

    I have 3 live seedlings at this point and the last time I looked they were doing OK. I also started up another grex with the last of the seeds. Last time I looked, most, if not all where albino or close to albino. When I check them on Sunday I'll see if a picture of either group is in order. In the mean time, they are nestled in their bags while dreams of nutricote dance in their heads.

  • sdandy
    15 years ago

    What are the rates or chances of green seedlings showing variegation later as the grow and develop? Do traits like that show later or are they typically present from the beginning?

  • LisaCLV
    15 years ago

    Good question, Andy. I've heard other growers say that variegation can occasionally develop in green seedlings as they mature, but in my own rather limited experience it seems far more common for seedlings to start out variegated and then lose it over time.

    My feeling about it is that if they're not showing any signs of variegation by the time they're big enough to transplant out of their community pots, then I'm not going to waste time waiting around to find out, particularly if there are other good variegates in the grex.

    Not all variegates are created equal, though. Often you may get a white stripe on just one or two leaves, but the odds of that ever developing into strong stable variegation are pretty low. It may be possible, if you grow it out and a pup comes out right at the point where the variegated tissue is, to get something better than what you started out with, but whether or not it's worth the effort depends on what else is going on with the plant. If it has a lot of other good features or it's the only variegate in the grex, then it may be worth it. Otherwise I wouldn't bother with it.

  • splinter1804
    15 years ago

    Hi everyone - On my computer I can't see the pic. of the stud. It just shows up as a red X surrounded by a black square. What does this mean?
    All the best, Nev.

  • stone_jaguar
    15 years ago

    By the oddest coincidence, two days ago I pulled a husky young Vriesea 'Splendide' that has apparently just recently started to show fairly strong albo-variegation (rather reminiscent of Aechmea chantinii 'Shogun') on new foliage from a batch of several hundred normal-looking seed-generated plantlets. I may have missed this individual during growout over the course of the past 18 mos, but I doubt it. I will check tomorrow when I'm back at the greenhouse, but if memory serves this particular plant's basal (=older) leaves show little evidence of any variegation. Thus, I s'pose this trait can, at least occasionally, manifest itself either from "birth" or in early adolescence; both as a stable trait or a chimera. I have also posted an image here a while back of a Neo. 'Grace' that morphed into a wild-looking variegate after birthing four or five generations of normal-looking pups and adults (BTW: checked with a lab - not virused).

    Saludos,

    J

  • LisaCLV
    15 years ago

    Nev, the red X just means that the original photo has been pulled out of the poster's photo-hosting account since this thread was started (a couple of months ago). It wasn't critical to this discussion anyway.

    Interesting you mention Vr. Splendide, Jay. I have the variegated form of that cv. (mediopicta type variegation, not albomarginated). It started out as a weakly variegated small "grass pup" from a friend's plant. I was skeptical about it developing good variegation but she told me they often start out like that and get better with age. Sure enough, it looks very nice now, and quite stable. How big is your seedling?

  • stone_jaguar
    15 years ago

    Lisa:

    The plant is approx. 20 cm (8") across. This whole batch of plants was replanted in clean rice hull (from a composted fine bark & charcoal mix) about six months ago, so perhaps this change to a very nutrient-deficient growing media may have hastened the color change.

    To be more precise, yes, I would also say that the albo-variegation in this plant leans more towards a medio-picta type variegation than being strictly albo-marginate...one thing that did strike me yesterday even though I did not give the plant more than a cursory examination, is that the variegation appeared to be manifesting itself as surging up from the background pattern so to speak, rather than as a bold striped overlay.

    From this same batch yesterday I also pulled a "tattoo-ed" 'Splendide' with clear hypen-like spotting as oppsed to the cloudy bands...quite odd and very different looking. Given your friend's plant and now this, it looks like this hybrid does spin some interesting offspring. I have tens of thousands of splendens cv-derived seedlings of varying sizes and I have yet to see an albo-variegated plant yet...although this "surprise" gives me hope that I may see some revealed as they get larger :)

    J

  • hotdiggetydam
    15 years ago

    So have we concluded that "if the seed parent is albomarginated, all of the seedlings will be albino and die"
    I know I have as I have tested it many times and had 1 plant survive out of 700.

  • LisaCLV
    15 years ago

    Well, I'm going to stick with my "usually" ammendment, HDD. If Japie wants to jump in here and tell about his all-green seedlings from N. Jaline, then I'll have to admit I'm stumped. Freak things do happen from time to time, but I'm still going to operate on the assumption that they probably won't.

    On the other hand, if anyone else is thinking about starting a thread to call me out on something I've said......... go ahead, I'm always willing to learn from my mistakes, but it *might* help your case if you can get your evidence lined up first (and take a picture!) ;-p

    Meanwhile, here is my variegated Vr. Splendide. The pups you see at the base are about the size the mother was when I got it. Some of them come out completely green, others are well-variegated from a young age, but the one I got had just a couple of narrow white lines on a few leaves (as you can see on the lowest leaves). I thought it would likely be only half-variegated or perhaps revert to green, but look how nice it turned out!

    {{gwi:516558}}

  • udo69
    15 years ago

    I also have the same experience as HDD. Seedlings from albomarginated mother usually were albino and died.

    Like Lisa, I'm also willing to learn by mistakes. Not everything is simple. We have to do experiment.

  • bromadams
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    I guess I've learned too. I started this post to share some information. Excuse me if I couldn't get a picture that clearly showed the variations in the grex. I planted the seeds on peat moss and the black background along with the tiny white and pink and green and dying leaves just didn't work for me. I know I sounded confused, but from the beginning there was some obviously green ones and plenty of obviously albinos and some I couldn't tell what they were. Some of the green ones died just as fast as the albinos died; one leaf and a quick death. Then I added more seeds and that added to the count changing every time I gave it.

    I now have just three non-albino seedlings that came from the seeds of an albo-marginated plant. Picture to come when they have more than 2 leaves which should be soon. Since "the rules" say it doesn't happen, we can only guess at what they will turn out to be. However, since these are bigenerics they may get to 8 leaves and die and we may never know. It certainly looks like it's a waste of time to use an albo-marginated plant as a seed parent, but they won't always be all albino. Or maybe we need to amend "the rule" to be they will be all albino unless they are bigeneric. Who knows?

    The only reason I put pollen on the Kyoto was to show some old ladies what a pregnant pyramidalis looks like. These old ladies kept bringing pyramidalis inflorescences to the meetings for me to see if they had seeds and I wanted to show them how easy it was to tell if they had seeds. That picture took just fine and now the old ladies know what a ripe seed pod looks like. The only reason I used Kyoto was I don't have pyramidalis anymore.

    {{gwi:516559}}

  • hotdiggetydam
    15 years ago

    OK Lisa I want to here more about Jaline, Whats the story? Since Jaline isnt albo

  • hotdiggetydam
    15 years ago

    an old man....so don't use the term old lady like is bad thing!

  • LisaCLV
    15 years ago

    Yes, Nick, on behalf of all of the old ladies of the world, I'd like to thank you for your efforts to educate us, not to mention your sensitivity...... ;-)

    HDD, I don't know about your Jaline, but mine sure as heck is albomarginated, and so is Japie's! Since he's not here, I guess I'll tell the story as best I can. Jaline also has striated sepals, which can sometimes indicate an ability to produce variegated seedlings. As Yong says, we all need to experiment with these things and compare notes in order to learn, and I've been doing quite a bit of that lately, although not enough yet to claim that there are any absolute, inviolable "rules". Still, striated sepals are not something one would expect to see on an A-M plant, so Japie decided to test it out and sow the seeds to see which trait was a better predictor of outcome. If it was the leaf margins, the results should have been all albino. If it was the sepals, he should have gotten some variegates. Well, they came out all green, so what does that tell us? I have absolutely NO IDEA. I tried pollinating mine too, but they didn't take. Oh well, back to the drawing board....

    My plant:

    {{gwi:516560}}

    {{gwi:516561}}

  • hotdiggetydam
    15 years ago

    Whoa!! that looks nothing like my Jaline

  • hotdiggetydam
    15 years ago

    It does look like mine..it except the albo part of mine is a peach color and not white

  • avane_gw
    15 years ago

    I did not want to mention the Jaline thing as it is obvously breaking all the 'rules'.

    I got a mature Jaline a while back - 13 August last year. The plant has already flowered and was busy forming it's first pup. I was very thrilled to have the plant as it was on my 'must have' list for quite some time and placed it in a prominent position so I can see it the moment I get into my shadehouse. Something looked unusual about the plant and I could not lay my finger on it.

    Then I saw it! It is a perfectly albomarginated plant - not one leaf with a single green edge - all white, but the sepals were not albino like all (or most)a-m plants have. I started to poke around in between the flowers and I found a few ripe berries. Having the berries in my hand, I saw that the sepals were not totally green but have some white striation io it. I sowed the seeds.

    And they all germinated! And ALL GREEN. Not one single albino and not one single one that had the slightest sign of being variegated. I thought maybe some of them might develop some variegation so I kept them.

    This is what the plant looked the day I received it:

    Neo Jaline

    {{gwi:516562}}

    The ripe berries:

    {{gwi:516563}}

    The seedlings, each batch sown a month after the other:

    {{gwi:516564}}

    And photographed today (discarded the third batch)respectively 4 and 5 months old:

    {{gwi:516565}}

    Japie

  • avane_gw
    15 years ago

    Sorry Lisa, I took my time in answering, we must have been busy at it at the same moment!

  • LisaCLV
    15 years ago

    No problem, Japie. I would have waited but I know how busy you've been lately. Thanks for joining in the discussion and providing excellent photos!

  • bromadams
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    3 of B Kyoto x N cruenta rubra

    {{gwi:516566}}

  • bromadams
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    I don't see Jaline in the Bromdex. Is that a cruenta hybrid? Those red berries sure look very cruenta.

  • hotdiggetydam
    15 years ago

    Its a variegated cv of cruenta

  • LisaCLV
    15 years ago

    I'm not sure if it's a cruenta hybrid or just a variegated form of cruenta. I suspect the latter, since the form, texture, growth habit and inflorescence are all very typical of cruenta. I'm not seeing anything else in there.

    Yes, there needs to be a photo on FCBS. Japie, why not send your pic in?

  • bromadams
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    So we have 2 examples of a-m seed parents with viable seeds and the pollen parent in both cases was N cruenta...hmmmm

  • LisaCLV
    15 years ago

    We don't know who the pollen parent was of the Jaline seeds. It had already bloomed when Japie got it, and it's not a selfer.

    If you want to put together a case for pollen parents having an influence on variegation or lack thereof, you'd better start setting up your experiments and checking them twice. I've never come across a Neo cross where it made the slightest bit of difference, but there was one Aechmea grex that I can't explain any other way. It's counterintuitive, but it's enough to keep a question mark in the back of my mind.

    I've also come across some evidence that in some other plant families, bigenerics may be MORE likely to spontaneously variegate, not less. This doesn't appear to be the case in the Bromeliaceae, but there is a better case to be made for it based on genetic incompatibility screwing up the communication between the chloroplasts and the nucleus.

  • bromadams
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    I saw the F2 on the seedling sticks and thought self pollination; perhaps not then. Anyway, it doesn't much matter. Why bother with a a-m seed parent when there appears to be no benefits to doing so and a very slim chance that you'll get any seedlings.

    As far pollen parents having an influence on variegation, I thought that the magic carolinae's pollen caused variegation, but maybe you have to use it as the seed parent. I don't know for sure which it is.

  • LisaCLV
    15 years ago

    "Why bother with a a-m seed parent when there appears to be no benefits to doing so and a very slim chance that you'll get any seedlings."

    LOL, isn't that the point you started this to refute?

    "I thought that the magic carolinae's pollen caused variegation, but maybe you have to use it as the seed parent. I don't know for sure which it is."

    Nope, seed parent, and it's very easy to figure out. Just check the parentage formulas in the registry or the photo index for all of the variegates (where it's given). The first name in the formula is almost always carolinae or a hybrid whose seed parent (or grandparent) was carolinae. It's matrilineal inheritance. Hopefully in the future we will find other species or hybrids with no carolinae genes that will do the trick, but right now that's the usual starting point.

    A variegated seedling may occasionally appear spontaneously in any grex, but that is something you can't plan for. I've had this happen several times, but so far none that survived have been worth keeping. The odds af getting anything good this way are very low, but it does happen.

  • bromadams
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Before I posted I checked for carolinae as parent and the results showed 116 for pollen parent, 239 for seed parent with 24 as both seed and pollen parent. In either case it's a very common parent.

  • LisaCLV
    15 years ago

    For variegates?

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