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sander_s

Variegation debate

sander_s
16 years ago

The mailman brought me this. (Japie donÂt look!)

{{gwi:521817}}

{{gwi:521818}}

Variegated Neo's were never my thing but I do like this one. I allways associated them with nasty variegated plants that, to my taste, look better in their original form.

I bought it because someone once told me Âpencil stripes are a good thing, because it could be a 'variegation transmitterÂ...

So I got it, to see what all the fuss is about. Since variegation seems to be one of the most wanted features in a Neo I am trying to find out why, and how.


I figured out how it might work by searching the web and the Âallmighty Gardenweb.

To put it simple the plant has a defect that permits parts of the leaf from growing green.

Since the leafs grow from the bottom up, you get stripes where the chlorophyll is missing.

This is usualy caused by a virus that damages the ÂmeristemÂ, this is the bottom of the leaf where new cells are Âadded to the leaf.

The defect can also occur in broms when the seed parent is variegated. Especialy if the parent has Âpencil stripes like mine.

Please do correct me if I am wrong. I am no expert on this matter!



When asking questions about this, some people get secretive. Why is variegation so special in broms?

I even found a dodgy article about pulverizing cigars on the soil to inoculate broms with the 'tobaccco mosaic virus'. Does anyone have experience with this? It can not be that easy.

Check the link below, scroll down and donÂt confuse it with the article above it. Should we believe this?

I would really like to hear you findings and opinions about this ÂmisteryÂ.

Any answers, or more questions anyone?

I have some more clues to reveal about the origin and the (supposed) name of this plant but IÂll keep that a mistery untill later ;-)

Sander

Here is a link that might be useful: Bogus or true??

Comments (48)

  • LisaCLV
    16 years ago

    Re: bogus or true?

    First article: true.
    Second article (tobacco mosaic): BOGUS BOGUS BOGUS!!!!

    Did I mention bogus? I have alluded to this before, as the second article originally appeared in the J-A '03 issue of the BSI Journal and the author (unattributed here) is known to me. The most charitable explanation I can come up with is that he actually forgot that the Neo. correia-araujoi x Oeser #100 WAS VARIEGATED WHEN I GAVE IT TO HIM. Weakly variegated, that is, which is why I gave him a pup to see if he could grow it better than I could. Apparently not, as the photos show what it does-- grown hard you get marmoration and strong red color but the variegation disappears; when fertilized more heavily it will be a greener plant with more noticeable variegation, but the marmoration is washed out. Some of you may like that kind of thing but I don't. I consider it a cull and have long since gotten rid of it.

    I find it interesting that he considered it relevant to cite the cost of the cigars and the address of the maufacturer but not the history of the plant in question.

    As to the other 3 plants, here are the photos that appeared with the original article. Do they look variegated to you? Ugly brown or yellow streaks are not what I call variegation. Viral? Perhaps. Attractive? No.

    {{gwi:521819}}

    {{gwi:521820}}

    If any of you want to run out and buy a bunch of cigars, be my guest. If I sound cranky it's because I'm absolutely APPALLED that this got picked up by Horticulture Magazine and is now on the web masquerading as legitimate research! I'm also annoyed that my Neo has travelled around and eventually made its way onto Michael's list, despite my specific request that it NOT be released.

  • sander_s
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Oh wow sensitive subject, I didn't mean to get on anybody's nerves! (well not too much anyway)

    That CaXO#100 looks variegated to me, but why a photo of one that looks like it's being kept in full sun? That makes it a dogy story indeed, where did the red go in the next generations? I trust Lisa's view on the matter and rule that one out.
    That faint blotchy lines in the others don't make it good variegation in my book and the plants don't look better to me. So why even try?

    There ya go folks, don't believe everything you read...

    I wonder what happens if you dry and smoke those poo coloured leaves.

    Anyway variegation through pups is not what I am looking for and is not a hard thing to do.

  • LisaCLV
    16 years ago

    Well, you know I'm not mad at you, Sander, and I don't mean to scare anybody off the topic, but I just couldn't let that go unchallenged. I should have written to the Journal editor the first time I saw it, but I let it go because of my past history with this person. I did ask him about it and got a completely unsatisfactory response, which makes me think he may have known what he was doing and just wanted to get his name in print. At least Hort mag didn't even give him that!

    Of course now I'm wondering why not? They attributed the first article (different author). Hmmmmmmm......

  • avane_gw
    16 years ago

    Sander, I did turn my head away. . . . . . . . and keep on coming back to have another peep at it! Very interesting looking plant. Has it got a name? Do you know who the parents are? It would be very interesting to see what the plant looks like when it grows up. Especially if it can be exposed to strong light to see what colours it is going to blush with, and what the colour the cup is going to flush when it flowers. And the flowers, ah, to see that!

    Japie

  • sander_s
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    I know you're not mad at me Lisa.
    Not stating the author made me smell something nasty.

    But can someone please tell me what is so special about those *#^ variegates?
    Dutch growers are cloning them by the thousands if they would see any money in the American hybrids they would do the same thing or am I missing something?

    Sander

    Here is a link that might be useful: Dutch grown var's

  • sander_s
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Japie

    All the Ebay seller from Portugal stated is: Neo 'Melon green/cream CV' grown from 'Costa Rican' seed.

    After I got it I asked if he could give me some more information but have had no reply so far.
    'Costa Rican seed' that makes you think......

    I dream off a cross with my Bobby dazzler! (Wich I got from the same guy)

    Sander

  • LisaCLV
    16 years ago

    I don't know what's so special about the variegates, Sander, except that you rarely find them in nature-- not because they don't occur, but because they don't survive nearly as well as their more chlorophyll-endowed brethren.

    20 years ago there were hardly any variegated Neos, so it was something rare and exotic. Now that some hybridizers have figured out how to make them there are tons of them, and the novelty is gone. The challenge is to do something new and different with it, just as it is with breeding unvariegated plants. There's not much point in creating thousand of new varieties that all have green and white leaves and a red cup. Not that some of them aren't attractive, it's just been done to death.

    Still, the whole transmitter thing remains one of the last "trade secret" type subjects. I suspect that will change soon, if it hasn't already. I've heard so many people talking about it within the last year or so that the information is out there. Even Skotak alluded briefly to it in his talk at the Extravaganza, and said "it's not rocket science". He's right, but getting a GOOD clone with all of the traits you want still requires patience and sometimes several generations of breeding work. He's way out ahead of the pack in that regard.

  • hotdiggetydam
    16 years ago

    I would venture a guees that Chester supplies 70-80% of the seedling on variegated plants world wide. He produces millions per year to be sold to large distributors who name them later and give him credit as the hybidizer

  • sander_s
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    I think my new pup has Chester written all over it. Nice to see one pop up in Europe.
    Maybe the seller gives me some more info on it that I can post.
    Here's mum's pic from ebay:
    {{gwi:521821}}
    If only we could look in there to see that flower.....

    Assumptions about the transmitter 'secret' can be found on this forum and I can imagine conclusions are soon to follow.

    Nice to see HDD is still here I figured you turned into a lurker. ;-)

    Sander

  • bambi_too
    16 years ago

    That might explain why variegations come so easy for him, they grow quite a bit of Tabacco in Costa Rica. There may be someting to that after all. There are quite a few pants that are affected by the Tabacco Moziac Virus.

  • sander_s
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    The TM virus is probably right. So yes there might be a link there.
    But the cigar bit puts me off. Especialy now I have seen the results.

    Looks like the best thing is to get a transmitter plant and work with that.

    Sander

  • hotdiggetydam
    16 years ago

    never a lurker, just don't surf by here much anymore. and this TMV idea is BOGUS. Costa Rica grows a small amount of tobacco compared to their other crops. Hybridizer's in Australia, Hawaii, Texas and Florida produce variegated broms also. Are we using the TMV to achieve this? The answer here is NO..

  • sander_s
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Just kidding about the lurking HDD.
    Thanks for your opinion.

    Sander

  • LisaCLV
    16 years ago

    John, go to the registry and look up the parentage of all of Skotak's hybrids. That's the key. You won't see tobacco listed anywhere!

  • bambi_too
    16 years ago

    Just kidding........GOT YA!

  • LisaCLV
    16 years ago

    Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between a joke and just not paying attention, John! ;-)

    It just occurred to me that the reason why the big Dutch growers are cloning variegated Neos by the thousand instead of some of the nicer unvariegated clones is because they lend themselves so much better to mass-production. You can fertilize the heck out of a variegate or grow it under low light and you won't lose the variegation, in fact it will come out even stronger against a dark green leaf. Of course you'll lose all of the subtler markings and form by doing that, but if you've got a brightly colored cup and striped leaves you can sell it anyway. Just try doing that with something like, say, Gold Fever or Ninja, and you'll end up with a trashcan full of big strappy green nothings!

  • sander_s
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    The Dutch Neo's all look like they don't need that much sun to look nice. That also might be a reason the choose those CV's.

    I have some more info from the guy in Portugal who sold me 'Melon'. He named it Melon and is thinking about registering it.
    He said he got seeds in 2004 through his partner who is a personal friend of guess who..... Yep Skotak.

    He does not know the exact parentage.
    This means, one I bought earlier this year is also one of Chester's.
    {{gwi:452903}}

    Sander

  • bob740
    16 years ago

    Sander,
    Your new nicely variegated Neo brought to mind a similar looking Nidularium that has recently bloomed and off-setted for me.
    I took this pic while still wet from a misting,and it actually shows the varigation better when dry.But it is fairly close to what your plant shows.
    And it varigated all by itself,because I'm not a smoker ;^)
    Bob

    Nid.innocentii lineatum X innocentii
    {{gwi:521822}}

    When the Mother plant was in flower
    {{gwi:521823}}

    And with its twin sister,Nid.innocentii,on the left
    {{gwi:521825}}

  • sander_s
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Accidental variegation, also an option.

    Maybe someone threw a cigar bud over your garden fence right in it's pot. LOL

    Sander

  • LisaCLV
    16 years ago

    Bob, Nid. innocentii v. lineatum is, as the name suggests, lineated, so based on that parentage I'd say it is more likely that the white lines on your hybrid come and go and have just been lying dormant for a while, rather than having suddenly appeared out of nowhere.

    In any event, try pollinating it with another Nid and see what you get!

  • brom_phil
    16 years ago

    i just got an idea if this TM virus does coures varigation wounder what would happen if you were to inject the plant with a pure al a liquid with a high majorety of it in it in to a brom. just wounder what the result would be and how would you get hold the the virus.

    so many questions so many things that most probly go unanswed.

  • sander_s
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Hybridizing with a variegated brom seems to work the best I guess. That's how the pro's do it.
    I was also very interested in the virus thing but it seems impossible to do and get nice results. The pictures Lisa posted say it all.

    Sander

  • LisaCLV
    16 years ago

    Yes, I thought those pictures would have killed any lingering desire to play around with tobacco mosaic virus, but I guess some people must like ugly brown streaks on their plants! ;-)

  • sander_s
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    It has been a while but here is 'Melon' from the pup above today:

    {{gwi:521826}}

    I've been in lurking mode fore a bit but still here.

    Sander

  • neomea
    14 years ago

    Hi Sander

    Not the most colourful Neo I have ever seen but certainly looks like an Xmitter! What have you been pollinating with?

    Cheers

    Dennis

  • vriesea
    14 years ago

    ok I will put in my ten cents worth, with respect to everyone, if a plant is virus affected this may or may not cause variegation , but if it is 'virus induced? the plant can never makle a plain reverted pup,as every bit is infected seed and all, make no mistake ! secondly i have done some experiments on this and after 30 years i have not produced 1 single virus induced Vriesea ,third , most viruses eventually kill the plant ,But most variegated Neo's are alive and well.What is the trigger ? any form of Neo ,carolinea thats variegated will produce like off spring if used as the POD parent , Neo, meyendorfii variegata is almost 100% SURE OF DOING THIS , also inbreeding in cultivation causes abnormalities (if thats what they are)happens with caged birds all the time ,and Neo's have shown a great propensety for variegations,its almost built in to them ,if it was due to T.M.V then a equall amount of other species would be variegated in the same tobacco growing areas,but that not the case ,ONLY A FOOL WOULD DO THIS ANYWAY, Neo concentrica accepts variegation readily ok, but try it with Neo kautskii and you will be most dissapointed ,it will not do it .but with virus ,should it not ?, the answer is thats its not virus induced and if it was ? no two leaves or plants would ever be the same,viruses are just not stable enough ,I like variegations but there are to many look alikes now,but that to the fact that many growers keep following the same path ,viruses also inhibit the ability for the flowers to work properly ,and in general the albonistic parts will die of ,but ? not so.why do people like the variegates ? beauty is in the eye of the beholder ,its each to there own. Anyway 99.99% of variegates are bred that way ,the remainder if T.M.V induced havent a chance in the world of growing properly , this was all sorted out years ago with orchids, and even if you where stupid enough to inject plants with a virus ? well all plants can suffer from it,it affects different plants differently but it would go right thru your collection,and if you are a commercial grower ? the agricultural department will CLOSE YOU DOWN FOR GOOD, now thats a real benefit isnt it ? Dont even try it , if you lived along side of me and did that ? and put my collection at risk ?I WILL MAKE YOU A VERY UNHAPPY PERSON. YOU ALL HAVE LITTLE TO FEAR, its easy to produce variegated Neo,s try it with the other genera and you will be most dissapointed.My Vr.Franklin Forest did the variegated thing all by itself ,but it can also lose it all by itself,if virus induced it will allways be so ,the only time a plant virus dies is when the plant dies, Jack

  • sander_s
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Jack, If you read the whole thread the virus thing is unmasked and clearly is bogus.

    Dennis, I pollinated with lilliputiana, the only pollen I have at the moment. :-(

    Hope it flowers fore a long while so I can get some better pollen.

  • LisaCLV
    14 years ago

    Jack, have you ever bred variegated Neos? While I obviously agree with you about the stupidity of playing with viruses, I have to disagree with most of what you say about variegation transmitters. I've been working with them quite a bit over the last 3 years, and while I don't have all of the answers (yet), I can tell you unequivocably that not all variegated carolinaes will produce variegates, and that there is no clone that is 100% guaranteed to do this. Also there is no guaranteed percentage of variegated seedlings in any grex. After a while you do start to get a feel for the averages and what to look for, but whenever I hear anybody rattling off numbers or absolutes I figure they haven't actually tried it themselves and are just repeating what they've heard.

    It's not that simple. Every indivdual plant, and every individual flower within that plant's inflorescence is going to give you different results. You just have to learn what to look for. I'm still learning, but Sander, if you can show me a close-up of Melon's inflorescence, that would give me a much better idea what kind of shot you may have with it. The original pattern of variegation on the pup was very promising, but if the pattern changes over time with the new leaves, that can affect results too.

    I've been a bit tight-lipped about the whole business up to now, just because I haven't wanted to give away something it took me so long to learn, but the information seems to be out there now anyway. Or at least the MISinformation. Maybe I should just leave it that way and let you folks go on barking up the wrong tree, but that's not really my style. ;-)

  • avane_gw
    14 years ago

    Jack, may I ask for a little bit more information please. When you say, any form of Neo carolinae that's variegated will produce like offspring, does that mean pure carolinae species or does it inlude carolinae hybrids as well? And if you say 'variegated', does that mean any kind (pattern) of variegation, like a-m, medio-picta, striation? Do you perhaps have pictures of such plants - especially Meyendorffii variegata?

    Thanks

    Japie

  • avane_gw
    14 years ago

    One more question please Jack.

    You said: "viruses also inhibit the ability for the flowers to work properly ,and in general the albonistic parts will die of"

    Could it mean this the plant in the picture below got it's variegation from a virus? The flowers were useless. But it's leaves look so healthy! I got 6 pups from that plant already. All nice and healthy looking, but when I remove them and pot them up, the moment they start to grow, most of them show signs of being virus infected in the leaves! Or is it something else?

    {{gwi:521827}}

    {{gwi:521828}}

    {{gwi:521829}}

    Japie

  • vriesea
    14 years ago

    Ok , I stand to be corrected, yes Lisa I have bred variegated Neo,s in small Quantiies and its my poor editing thats the problem ,with the Neo Meyendorfii Variegata ,( a clone that Bob Larnach and i obtained ex Gulz ) we both found that each time it was used you would get some variegates in the mix,a lot of albinos to just quitely, as well as the bulk of plain green,i readely admit its not my field,i can only go by the bit i did, and yes each flowers can give a differing result,as is the case with using Neo,aussie dreams as pod parents, Bob Larnach here in Aus, found it a also very easy to produce variegates,he may not register anything himself but he has produced many notable plants of that type.When i said that any var, carolinea will produce like offspring i did not mean to imply that you get 100% variegates ,,sorry Lisa i merely meant that's its capable of producing a few of that type . have to put it more distinct when i type on this computer (am still very inept) I have enormous respect for the work you have done Lisa and like you I dont mind being corrected or what ever , I also like to hang onto some things that i have learned , and in all fairness the bulk of what i said was about viruses ,No plant i know of gives 100% results at any time, i really did mean it to read that way ,if it where that way we would be up to our arm pits in every thing thats variegated to any degree,i have been doing a bit of hybridising for 40 years now and certainly have worked out its not allways that direct and you have to have the right parents on both sides or it does not work, for instance my Vr.'Milky Way ' will allways give white centred plants , it may be a very small percentage and you have to pick the right partner plant to go with it , any way Lisa i am sorry if i had upset you in any way that was not intended at all OK ? the virus thing i stand by however ,and the person that wrote the article about doing it with cigars is very irresponsible to say the least ,we both agree on that .Bye bye Jack

  • sander_s
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Aahh the good ole can'o worms.....

    Lisa, I'll try to take a descent inflo pic in the morning.

    Just saw it has two pups coming so the quest for the holy brom will go on for years. :-)

    Sander

  • LisaCLV
    14 years ago

    You didn't upset me, Jack, I just disagree with you. There's a difference. ;-)

    Most variegated Neos, whether they are carolinae or something else, will not produce any variegated offspring whatsoever. Mediopicta variegates like Perfecta will give you plain greens, and marginates like Meyendorffii A-M will give nothing but albinos. Of the ones that do, some clones do tend to be more stable, and therefore more reliable in that respect, but any irregularly patterned Neo has the potential to go albomarginated or mediopicta on you, and that will alter its effectiveness as a parent. It's not the genetics of a particular clone that make it a good transmitter, it's the physical properties of each individual specimen.

    As for Larnach's variegates, his Mother does seem to have been fairly reliable, but he still swears that all the Aussie Dreams have olens for a pollen parent. If you believe that, I have some prime oceanfront property I'd be happy to sell you over the phone! There's no way that's true, so I have to weigh that into the overall credibility issue.

    Since we're on the subject, though, I'm wondering what you meant when you said "Neo concentrica accepts variegation readily ok, but try it with Neo kautskii and you will be most dissapointed ,it will not do it." What do you mean by "accepts variegation"? You can put pollen from any Neo onto a transmitter and get variegated offspring if the mother has the right stuff. Are you saying that kautskyi pollen will somehow inhibit the seed parent from transmitting variegation? Why would that be?

  • sander_s
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    No flowers today

    {{gwi:521830}}

    {{gwi:521831}}

  • sander_s
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    {{gwi:521832}}

  • LisaCLV
    14 years ago

    Yeah, that looks pretty good, Sander. You should get some decent results with that one. If not, let me know. There's always the odd one or two that don't follow the rules.

    Too bad you don't have a nice marmorate you could use as a pollen parent. It's already got some of that in the mix, so it would be easier to go that way than with some others. Lilliputiana is good in some combinations but it will most likely get lost here.

    I suppose now would be a good time to interject a little lecture about being a responsible hybridizer. Experimentation is all very well and good, and we all have to go through that phase when we start out, but in the end we have to use the same standards to judge variegates as we would for nonvariegates. When you're looking at the finished product, mentally erase the variegation from your mind. If what is left is something you would be proud to attach your name to as an unvariegated plant, then keep it. Otherwise, don't release it. Now that so many people are figuring out how to do this, there's probably going to be a flood of undistinguished variegated Neos being registered, and there are already too many look-alikes in my opinion. That's another reason why I've been hesitant to give out too much information, I don't want to encourage this. If you can do something different with it, fine, go for it! Otherwise, just the fact that it's got white stripes is not enough to earn its keep anymore. The bar has been raised.

  • sander_s
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    That's what I thought.

    I have a marmorated one coming, I hope it's in time...

    Sander

  • vriesea
    14 years ago

    Hi Lisa, glad i did not upset you, you may disagree with me any time ,as you follow it up with valid debate , I have known Bob Larnach for close to 40 years (when we also grew orchids ) and we have disagreed on the 'olens ' as pollen parent (maybe a case of mistaken identity ?) so i will have to pass up your offer of the 'prime real estate'also going by all the 'aussie dreams' that now circulate in Aus,and some are different than they should be (far more than Bob origenally named) it would appear that 1/there where 2 different crosses or 2/ some one has remade it or 3/anything that looks like it has become a 'aussie Dream' based on money ? the plant that we both used as parent is indeed very reliable ,and yes i agree that 'medio picta and 'albomarginates' are not much use (i only mentioned variegates and not those types) and i guess upon reflection that as the 'carolinea types and concentrica' appears in so many variegated hybrids it would appear the are "keyed" up for that type of plant (variegated) bigger % used is bigger % result. 'kautskii' is and was one of my pet likes, but i could not trigger a variegate with it when used with our reliable mother ,it may be that it just inhibits that the same as a 'zonated' plant inhibits the blushing of the other but why? i dont know ,there is still much to explore (why dont we live for 200 years) you do raise a good point ,look at that plant and view it without the white lines,if its still good ? my Vr.'Frankling Forest' variegated is a good case, yes its nice ,yes i am happy to have it, but it will still have to improve a lot (hopefully the next pups will do so )because at this stage the plain Mother is still the better plant ,(why i may never register the variegated one )the fact you 'paint ' white lines on a plant may make it 'unique' but is that a improvement if the overall configuration goes downhill ? and if the lines are irregular and lopsided ?it has the reverse effect for me in its appeal. (all that glitters is not gold) i could easily get into Neo's all over again,but dont have the room or the time ,oh i have some seedlings ,but nothing of any consequence, and as i am headed for 66 yrs old i dont seem to have the same energy i did 30 yrs ago , yes i agree Lisa we have to be our own judge and jury about plants,there performance and quality ,however i will admit that i have a few 2-3 that allthough not 'perfect' they have a personal appeal,i dont do anything with them but the are 'pets' guess most of us can be guilty of that.I admire your work and your dilligence and it would be a treat to visit you personally (and pick your brain as people have put it to me ) but i am stuck in Oz,i do see a bright and exciting future in all our endevours Cheers for now ,Jack

  • LisaCLV
    14 years ago

    Jack, you list some possibilities I hadn't thought of in regards to the Aussie Dream controversy. It hadn't occured to me that others would co-opt that name, but I guess people will stoop to anything, won't they? Some of them, though, are his, and they just don't make sense genetically. For example, several of the cvs. have faint marmoration, which could not have come from either carolinae or olens. Also, I've played with olens quite a bit, so I know the size range it produces, as well as the dominant coloration, and it just doesn't add up on many of them. I asked BL about this directly when he visited me a few years back. He just shrugged and said he didn't know why people kept asking him that. Okay....... I guess I'll be charitable and buy your explanation about mistaken identity. ;-)

    The kauskyi thing is another puzzle. I may have to take this as a direct challenge to try it because it makes no sense to me. My problem is that kautskyi never blooms for me, but maybe I can Florel one and fiddle with it. Of course if you're trying to make a "variegated kautskyi" the offspring may not look much like that unless you back-cross it a few times. That could take a while, and I'm not sure how many years I've got left to play around with these things either!

  • paul_t23
    14 years ago

    Hi Jack, hi Lisa, thanks for the debate. This is great stuff. For a novice like myself to get exposed to this sort of thing is just terrific. Cheers, Paul

  • matt15
    14 years ago

    Paul has pinned the tail on the donkey there. It's a fantastic read. Thankyou everybody who contributed.
    Lucky i'm only 28... so i've got years and years of growing broms ahead of me. lol

  • vriesea
    14 years ago

    Hi Lisa, i find that a puzzle,your Neo,kautskii not flowering for you ,wonder why? could it be your climate? it flowers readily here and you have to be quick, its also very self fertile ,and yes I was puzzled also by the faint marmorations, B.L originally named aprox 25 clones,as far as i can recollect ,and in the last 2-3 years "new clones" have appeared ,go figure.as for co opting names ? a well known seller here in Oz on Ebay is notorius for it ,did it with my Vr. fosteriana 'White Bands' but got hauled over the coals real quick by my lovely 'Aussie Beauty ' lady friends but yes money will do that ,yes I was trying to get a Variegated Kautskii as such,i would have liked to see how it panned out if one got a yellowish coloured plant ,and how the variegated parts would be on that background and would the red plashes transfer and interact with the albonistic parts,did not know much in those earlier days ,was trying to answer a few questions at once ,but i may try again ,wish you the best of luck Lisa.

  • LisaCLV
    14 years ago

    What I want to know about Larnach's variegates is: even assuming that he did use the same pollen parent for all of the Aussie Dreams, why would he not try others? There were hardly any variegates in the trade at that point, so if you're one of the few people who's figured out how to make them, why would you stop at just one grex? I can't imagine not wanting to explore other possibilites.

    I don't know why kautskyi doesn't want to bloom for me. It could be climate, but a friend of mine has bloomed it. She said it blooms very slowly, only opening one flower every few days, which sounds like practically the opposite of your experience, Jack. Go figure. I didn't know it was self-fertile, but that wouldn't be a problem if you were using its pollen (assuming it produces enough pollen to work with). At any rate, I don't really have the right mother plant to pair with it at the moment. For something like that you'd want a seed parent that didn't have a complicated agenda of its own to muddy the waters. One of Skotak's carolinaes would probably be best, at least until we can break the carolinae hegemony. I had a nice one with a good gloss (also a kautskyi trait), but I lost it. Now all I have to work with are hybrids, which is okay for most of what I've been trying to do, but I really should get a good carolinae. So..... don't hold your breath that I'm going to get on this any time soon, but it is intriguing.

  • splinter1804
    14 years ago

    Hi everyone,

    Sander, congratulations on starting off a most exciting and informative topic.

    The ideas and knowledge contained in this post are so valuable, especially for young blokes like Paul and Matt as well as our young ladies of the forum who are also dabbling in a bit of bromeliad hybridizing.

    Oh how I wish I had got more involved with broms when I was a young man, but then it's still also an intriguing interest for even "old farts" like me as there is always a new surprise around the corner.

    Thank everyone for a great discussion, "Long Live the Hybridizer"!

    All the best, Nev.

  • rickta66
    14 years ago

    Jack,Lisa,

    My Kautskyii flowered recently (it was probably coolish when it flowered), I was keen to try a cross with it but it flowered quite a bit later than all of my Neos.

    I guess I will have to try storing some pollen next time, none of my flowers selfed but I didn't try to force it to self.

    Rick

  • vriesea
    14 years ago

    hi again Lisa, I can't answer why B.L did not do more ,but like me he was still big into orchids as well ,and at one time you could not sell Broms in Australia , we both closed our nurseries down for that reason,Bob worked for a Japanese mob tissue culturing Kangaroo paws (Aust, wild flower )I sold 95% of every thing i had to a lady up north (cheap and on time payment) i kept what i needed to hybridise with as a hobby ,sad it was for me all that hard work, oh well! Kautskii gives plenty of pollen , so that's not a problem ,Hope i live till i am 200 , bye Lisa

  • rpwalton
    9 years ago

    Nice read.

  • hotdiggetydam
    9 years ago

    Almost all variegates have one particular plant in their gene pool. Mr Skotak certainly has proved this.

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