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Angel Trumpet Warning

Posted by Araillia NE TX Z8a (My Page) on
Wed, Jul 27, 05 at 15:25

This was posted on one of my yahoo groups this morning. I thought it warrented passing along.

"Angels Trumpets are toxic and we should not "ingest" and part of these plants! However, read what happened to me!!!
My angels trumpets sent me to the emergency room today and I did not eat, drink or smoke any part of my plants!!!
I decided I would wash off my plants with a strong hosing of water to rid them of the caterpillars that are devouring them. My plants are about 6 feet tall (I am 5 foot tall) and as I hosed the plants off water dripped off the leaves into my hair and face.
I was also perspiring (Surprise in this heat!!!) and washed my left hand (which I had used to turn leaves or break off spent blooms) with the cool water from my hose and wiped my face.
About 1/2 hour later when I came inside, I noticed my vision was blurred and my eyes felt dry and burning. I assumed it was from the salt in my perspiration. Then I looked in the mirror and immediately became frightened. My pupils were huge!!!
A friend drove me to the emergency room, where, thanks to a doctor who not only owns angels trumpets but has a keen interest in toxic plants, I was diagnosed immediately with atropine poisoning. Here were (and are) my symptoms: blurred vision, dilated pupils, extreme thirst, headache, dizziness (I'm blond so didn't think that was unusual!), slight nausea, rapid pulse, and elevated blood pressure (mine was 168 over 86). Symptoms last from 1 to 3 days. Apparently I was not poisoned sufficiently enough to warrant any other treatment than to be told to wear dark glasses and go home. (Still have blurred vision, burning dry eyes and a headache.)
So please be very careful around your angel trumpets!!! Let the caterpillars eat them and leave spent blooms alone. I spoke to Liz Hale this afternoon and she feels that this information should be gotten out to the public. I called or spoke to some of my friends and neighbors who have them and then decided to email as many people
as I could. Please spread the word."


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

  • Posted by Jroot 5A Ont. Canada (My Page) on
    Wed, Jul 27, 05 at 21:24

Thanks for the warning.

I try to wash my hands every time after I touch my brugs, dats, and oleander, or even cleaning the pond. There are a few times I may have forgotten, but that may explain why I thought the sun was too bright on my way to work the other day.

It is good to have many sources of information so that we can,in turn, make informed decisions. Thanks again


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

I am very allergic to brugs and datura foilage. If I am doing cuttings and get any "brug-goo" on myself, I break out into hives and itch like crazy. Haven't had any of the other symptoms of actual poisoning though-yet. I do have alot of other pollen type allergies so, it was no big surprise that I was allergic to brugs/datura. Clearly some people are much more sensitive to certain things than others. I would think young kids should be discouraged about handling brugs without long sleeves or gloves as they have more sensitive skin, as well as anyone with altered skin integrity (skin tears etc.), and perhaps elderly who have thin , fragile skin.
Last summer, my dad was at a rest stop and sat on the grass which unknown to him had been sprayed with insecticide earlier in the day. My mom was sitting next to him. Dad had a really bad reaction and an ambulance had to be called and they took him to the ER where he was found to have been actually poisoned. My mom though had no ill effects. They both were wearing jeans, tennis shoes and short sleeves.~Strange..
Anyhow thanks for the warning
~SG


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

people injest the seeds for hallucinations... so it cant be that toxic, Datura is also toxic and used in a drink along with dmt, an maoi, and jungle tobacco, the drink causes hallucinations as well. so its really nothing to be scared of. Just dont injest to much.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Absorbtion of any chemical is possible thru the skin. People forget that your skin is just another porous organ. For people who are allergic or hypersensitive to a chemical it can cause a severe reaction just as if they ingested it. I, like most people don't have a hypersensitivity to the plant or its juices (and will never try ingesting it). Some people are allergic to fish,milk,eggs,peanuts etc and the mere touch of these products can bring about severe reactions. I don't want this bit of information although informative to scare away new brug owners. Yes brugs are poisonous if ingested but so are poinsettas, mistletoe, dumbcane and many other plants that you commonly find in the home. Treat brugs as you would any of these and your brug experiance will be a rewarding one.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

  • Posted by Jroot 5A Ont. Canada (My Page) on
    Thu, Jul 28, 05 at 22:29

I agree with you 100%, xeriscape8321. Add rhubarb, and tomatoes to your list of other common poisonous plants. As I said before, information is good. We have to be knowledgeable in order to make sound decisions.

Personally, I won't be giving up my brugs, or oleanders, or dahlias, etc, because I am informed and can make rational decisions about how to handle them, and also how to inform guests about how to handle them. I appreciate anyone giving me the "heads up", so that I can remain informed.

At the same time, like xeriscape8321, I would be upset if someone refused to learn about the wonders of brugmansia and datura only because of paranoia caused by somewhat embellished tales of deadly deathtraps. I thank Araillia for not going overboard, but rather letting us know about a potential situation that we should all be aware of.

Amen. "Jroot over and out".


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

I've noticed that meat goats grazing in an area where Datura grows will not eat the leaves. They also tend to avoid most milkweed type plants, which probably also contain some toxin that don't taste good.

I read where some of the local kids found out they could get "high" on the Datura seeds and were raiding yards where the plant was grown to get the seed. One of the kids also ended up in the emergency room with a severe reaction. Guess the kid could understand Sam Houston's quote:

"The thorns I reap are of the bush I planted, they've torn me and I bleed."


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

For those of you interested, here is a list of very common poisonous plants that you may have in and around your home.I think many of you will be quite surprised.

Here is a link that might be useful: Poisonous Houseplants


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Hi all,
I posted this on another thread I was reading about how Angel Trumpets are toxic. Here it is.... I was poisoned by pesticides in 1988, they used atropine to try and counter act the pesticides. To all of you who do use chemicals in your gardens, the symptoms are similar to what was just said about the Angel Trupmets. I thought it was strange that they used one toxic chemical to counter act another, but, what I've learned thru all of this is depending on how sensitive your system is to certain plants, chemicals, and so on.. is that almost anything you touch or eat can be toxic! The mix, also of the two, plants and chemicals used on them can really be toxic! So please be aware of everything you touch and eat, you never know what lurks in the darkness, :-)
Been there!
Georgia


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

I disagree with Tropicalpunch on the toxicity of Datura seeds. I know of too many cases in the state, where people have died from eating either some seeds or tinctures and extracts from the seeds. It does not take very many seeds to be fatal!

Belladonna, another nightshade, has the same eye-dilating chemical. Some opthamologists still use it, too. Jroot, what is toxic about tomatoes? Potato plants are very toxic.

I think most plants in this family are toxic, but some are not. I'm even careful with the hornworms found on Datura and keep them separate from the other ones found on tomatoes or peppers until they pupate.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Tomato foilage is on a lot of 'toxic plant' lists. It used to be in the 17th century, called a 'wolf peach'
or 'devil apple' by some who believed that the actual tomato was also poisonous. Once source I read said that wealthy people used to eat on pewter plates and with pewster flatware which had a high lead content and I suppose the corrosive (acidic) nature of the tomato on metal caused lead poisoning so people thought they were poisonous whereas the 'poor' folks who had no such dinnerware ate tomatoes regularly and knew they weren't poison. (see article below link) Some people probably already know all this but I just thought I would post it because I find plant history so fascinating :)
More history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato#Early_history

There is also a nice write up on tomato history in the Burpee "The Complete Vegetable and Herb Gardener' book.

Here is a link that might be useful: tomato history


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

  • Posted by Jroot 5A Ont. Canada (My Page) on
    Sat, Jul 30, 05 at 4:49

It is fairly common knowledge that the leaves of a tomato plant are hazardous. Check out the many pages illustrating this. Here is a link to just one of many.

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/poison/Lycopes.htm

Personally, I don't worry too much about my brug plants. I am careful, as I said, to wash after working with them. Just being informed keeps me knowledgeable and respectful of their traits. We cannot treat all people the same way, and it is understandable that we cannot treat all plants the same way. Each has their own unique characteristics.

Amen. I'm done.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

  • Posted by Rjj1 Ok USDA Zone 7 (My Page) on
    Sat, Jul 30, 05 at 6:37

Araillia

When I first read the post I figured you were a person very sensitive to brugs and didnt worry too much about toxicity. I take routine precautions when working with them.

Yesterday I moved a number of containers with brugs in them to another location. I allowed leaves to brush against my face while picking up some big plants. About30 minutes later I had to hold onto things just to get into the house to keep from falling over. I took an ice cold shower and washed numerous times with soap. It still took me about 2 hours to get over it.

Its irresponsible for tropicalpunch to the spout garbage about not being toxic. I googled "Brugmansia toxicity" and found numerous medical documents to the contrary. People like tropicalpunch will continue to show up in emergency rooms. Some will pull through after a few days, others wont. The thing that makes brugmansia deadly is the chemical variance from plant to plant. Some idiot will drink a tea made from a less toxic plant, think its nice and then die from a tea made from another plant thats more potent. You truly have to be an idiot to want to feel the way I felt yesterday.

I love brugs and will continue to grow them, but will be more aware about how to handle them. I also love to grow Adeniums, Pachypodiums, and Thevetia which are much more toxic than a brug.

randy


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

When I first started to garden, I planted some Hollyhock then I found out it was poisenous so I pulled it up therefore robbing myself of some very beautiful flowers. I agree with the above posters.. it is all in how you handle the plants. I know my Datura and Brugmansia are toxic so when I have to work with them I wear gloves, long sleeves and a hat to keep the leaves out of my face (you should see the brim on this hat!) I have informed myself and therefore I am armed with the info.
When people ask my what kind of plants they are I tell them.. I also tell them that they are toxic and I DO NOT tell them anything about the medicinal or recreational uses.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Hello all,

No offense to any, but I do take the original story about with a few grains of salt...as I do most of the crap that floats around the Internet.

It appears to be written in the alarmist style of so many hoaxes and urban legends, no details, dates, contact info, etc. Kind of like the "Refer Madness" style.

Now, sure, brugs and datura contain some chemical that may or may not kill those that purposely injest it.

However, I find it very very hard to believe that enough toxins could be transfered by hosing down the plant (which is to say flushing it with gallons of water which would be highly diluting any chemical). Then having this diluted rinse water absorbed in sufficient quanity through the skin. Hmm...methinks I am being feed some BS on the Internet.

Now, if one decides to chew up some seeds, chew on a piece of the root, make a tea from the leaves, seeds, or roots...well, yes, they will have a reaction...maybe they will survive, maybe not.

Anyway, since I could not find that this story has been investigated, so I e-mailed it to the Urban Legends site.

And below, I am putting the address of it and another Hoax site so everyone can educate themselves that, no one is going to give you $50 per e-mail about Microsoft, gift cards for Chili's, chain letter crap, CocaCola is an effective spermacide (although it has be proven to be twice as effective as Pepsi...but I digress), or the rest of the like.

http://www.snopes.com/snopes.asp

http://www.hoaxkill.com/urbanlegends.html

Wildcat


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Wildcat, her story is NOT rubbish. Just because you don't want to believe it, doesn't give you reason to write all this disbelief and shoot her down for it. I happen to have a Datura. I don't get sick from handling it. It's still a VERY TOXIC plant! It's people like you and Tropicalpunch who ignore such warnings and even call them "hoaxes" at the expense of risking many lives and health, that make can ruin good sense!

Araillia had a serious problem with her plants and got sick by washing them. Rjj1 got sick from having them touch his sweaty face! This is a very clear indication that some of us are more sensitive to mere skin contact than others. Water and sweat are very good conductors of plant toxins and other harmful chemicals to our open pores!

Jroot and Sinner, I believe you about the toxicity of tomato leaves, although they are usually not listed among common poisonous plants. I also know that some people are just simply allergic to many things, including tomato leaves. Tomato plants, like most nightshades, not only have a very pungent odor [tomatoes smell good] but have that same eerie, clammy feel when touched. I think Daturas stink but the flowers smell sooo wonderful!

I also know tomatoes themselves are not actually toxic. Neither are peanuts, wheat, corn, squash, melons or oranges. Still, there are thousands of people in America who literally are so allergic to these, eating them can KILL!


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Hello Tomato Worm59,

Please, for your own sake and the sake of the rest of us, please take a Valium or a Xanax and calm down. LOL!

Then, please CAREFULLY reread what I wrote, very carefully. Did you even read it through thoroughly?

Also, reread the first sentence in Araillia's post.

If you do this time, you will see that she did not have any problems! Surprise! She reprinted what she found on the in her Yahoo group...and the person that posted it there likely also found it somewhere on the Internet as well.

I did not verbally attack Araillia nor was I derogatory to her in any way. I did not even address what Randy (rjjl) wrote as he is writing about a first hand experience...which holds much more water with me. By the way Randy, I was sorry to read about your experience.

Personally, I felt what I wrote was professional, polite, concise, and informative. Not attacking at all.

Unlike the venomous post you made. (OK, so 'venomous' is an overstatement...but, how often do we get a chance to use the word 'venomous' in a conversations...it's a 35 point word...LOL!)

Also, I never said her story was was 'rubbish'. I said I take the story "with a few grains of salt". Now OK, maybe I do with the entire salt shaker...LOL!

DO NOT put words in my mouth or speak for me.

Now, I will step down to your level for a sentence and be condescending to you and tell you to READ what I wrote again...because it is painfully obvious that you did NOT read what I typed.

I mean, WHERE did I say that I ignore that these plants are toxic?

How AM I "risking many lives and health"?

What DID I state about injesting these plants?

(OMG...I sound like Chandler on Friends...ack!)

Basically, all I was stating was to use some intelligence believing everything you hear on the Internet. (Heck, even my advice when asked...LOL!)

I have, as everyone else, a right to my own opinion. (eg. "my opinion" and " the right opinion" are interchangeable...LOL!)

I did so...without attacking anyone.

You succeeded in the former, failed in the latter.

As since everyone else has a right to their opinion, I love to hear everyone else's opinion regarding my previous post and your post.

Because others may not agree with what I stated does not mean I was out of line. However, if they believe I was out of line, I will make it right.

So, hoping to hear from you all.

Thank you,

Wildcat
PS. I truely hope everyone is taking this with the humor it is intended.


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The Trumpet's Warning

There is no doubt that chemical sensitivities vary greatly between people. So the bottom line is to be aware of your own condition. An extreme example of oversensitivity to a plant would be my sister when she was a child in New York. I remember one January day when we went out and built a snow fort. We were out maybe around three hours, and from what I could see no bare ground was created by our activity. When we got inside my sister started to complain about pain on her arms and face, and these soon were badly swollen. My parents rushed her to the emergency room where she was diagnosed with a severe rash caused by poison ivy! Indeed that part of the yard had a patch of the stuff in summer, but this was deep winter. She must have gotten a hold of some of its roots or stem. Now that's what I call sensitive!

I would however "side" with Wildcat on the idea that people overdo it with "poison stories." Let's face it, it makes for interesting reading. It's the old, he said, she said game: a cocktail of reality swirled around with a heavy dose of hype. The internet is the wild west in that there is no regulation on what is said here, so buyer beware!

BTW Wildcat, I didn't take your posts as inflammatory, in fact I thought they were quite funny. I especially liked your use of "refer madness". That was a good one, wish I'd thought of it.

Good Growing everyone! PF


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

This does not mean she does not have those problems. You basically said she was overreacting. Theplants are every bit as toxic as most here say they are. That is not a wives tale or urban legend!


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

I believe what Araillia has described is possible. Some people are more sensitive to certain compounds thatn others. My dad was extremely sensitive to the compound in poison oak and ivy. Many times he had to go to the doctor with swollen skin thorughout his body. But he statyed away from those plants. We learned quickly that he could not come outside while we were mowing the lawn. The doctor explained that all green plants have some tiny amount o the poison oak/ivy compound. The vapor from freshly cut grass was enough to make him 'break-out'. Araillia may be supper-sensitive.

I handle brugs all of the time and have never had a reaction. I've never had poison oak/ivy, even after handling it. Now, I love to eat raw Irish potatoes. I have eaten some that had 'green' peels on them. Man alive, it made my lips burn and slightly swell. Remember, brugs, tomatoes and potatoes are all first cousins, so it makes sense.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Maybe that's why I keep getting headaches lately! I don't get headaches often, and it has been hot, so I thought maybe I wasn't drinking enough water. I drank LOTS of water today, but got another headache. None of the other symptoms, but I rarely wear gloves when I work on my Angel Trumpets. Today I planted some hew little babies and did some trimming of the Angels. I'll put gloves on whenever I work with them, and try not to touch my face. Thanks!


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

One good thing about the toxidity of brugs is that the damn deer leave them alone! It's a pity that people wanting to get high try them. Extremely poisonous mushrooms (toadstools) give people a high too -- just before they die.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

As I've said before, Dotty...Thinning the herd.

Flame me all you want, but if someone intentionally ingests something that they haven't fully investigated (or even if they have) then the consequences are what they are. I shall weep not a tear.

Wildcat: I think you handled your comments very well. It's refreshing to see someone actually (1)pay attention to the previous posts and (2)give intelligent and articulate discussion. Carry on!


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Dotty, the world's most toxic mushrooms are not in the least hallucinogenic. The people who eat them, still die, but for another reason.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Bottom line lots of stuff we grow is toxic...so lets not eat it!


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Okay, I agree that sensitivity to organic compounds varies widely from person to person, and I agree that some people may be highly sensitive to those found in brugs. BUT---I feel that for the sake of balance here, I need to report that *I* have actually deliberately bitten into a brug leaf and suffered no ill effects. Now, I didn't chew it up and swallow it---nasty-tasting things!---and I did so only AFTER reading about their toxic potentials.

So why did I do it? Well, I have several pets, and I wanted to know first-hand whether my brugs might pose a threat to my furbabies. One taste convinced me that they were in no danger, because I can't imagine ANYTHING taking a second bite. (*grin*)


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Judith,

You are too much. You remind me of a friend of mine who was a mushroom collector. If he wasn't sure about the edibility of a particular unknown species, he'd taste a little! If it was bitter, he'd spit it out. Otherwise he'd eat a few. Of course his knowledge base was huge, and yes, he's still alive.

As with anything, if you're really interested in something, then do some research don't just have an emotional reaction. Virtually all drugs and medications were derived from naturally occurring substances in plants and fungi. To label them as "bad" or "good" is to miss the point. They are simply substances that impact our bodies in any number of ways. So be informed of them by educating yourself and making your own decisions. It is well known that cultures the world over have been using plants as psychoactive agents for thousands of years. Very probably many of you use these yourself everyday and don't really think about it...you know things like coffee, tea, cigarettes; even alcohol is derived from plants.

Personally I wouldn't eat my brugs, they're too pretty! PF


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Judith you should be from missouri...the "Show Me" state


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Xeriscape, the Volunteer State works well for me, too---I 'volunteer' to go and find out! (I have a bit of mongoose in me, too. *grin*)


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Datura / Solanaceae Dosage
by Erowid

As a general rule, Erowid neither recommends nor discourages the use of any psychoactive, however, in the case of tropane alkaloid-containing Solanaceae plants, we think it is important to note that an overwhelming majority of those who describe to us their use of Datura (and to a lesser extent, Belladonna, Brugmansia and Brunfelsia) find their experiences extremely mentally and physically unpleasant and not infrequently physically dangerous.

There is no way to guess a reasonable dose, because potency of the plant material itself and appropriate dose for an individual appear to vary so much. The question of what "reasonable" means for something that so often leads to such ridiculously negative effects is hard to say.

As an admixture plant in some traditional ayahuasca brews, smoking blends, or other preparations, parts of these plants are generally used in very low doses. Because of the serious adverse consequences associated with tropane alkaloids (scopolamine, atropine, hyoscyamine) intoxication and the wide variation in doses used, we are unwilling to even speculate about specific dosages for the leaves, flowers, and seeds of these plants.

If you are considering ingesting Datura-group plants, please read extensively from the collected experience reports and never take them without a reliable, sober sitter who understands the likely health issues and who can stop you from walking in front of traffic. Please note that fatalities from ingesting Datura do occur and hospitalizations seem to be quite common, in spite of the relatively low rates of psychoactive use of these plants.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

btw with the info ur giving on hallucigenic mushrooms being toxic not hallucinogenic, thats completely BS... only a few ppl eat toadstool mushrooms (aminitas) to get "high", which in fact they dont actually get u high nor do any other mushrooms. the real mushrooms people take to hallucinate are psyilocybe which IS NOT TOXIC, it is almost impossible to overdose, psyilocyben mushrooms contain psilocin and psilocyben which mimic seritonin which creates almost natural hallucinations... now with Datura... when people consume them, they indeed do become poisoned but thats not the only thing in effect.. as the article i posted shows how datura contains alkoids which create the high.. If you were to injest it for a high, you should normally be smart enough to know you need to purify the alkoids and try to freebase it through extractions. Normally people who use datura to get "high" extract it through a boiling process.. now from reports that have been presented, the "high" is not a high you would ever even think about wanting to experiance. as from an highly experianced psychoactive user says " datura takes you to places you were never ment to go". Which is why there is so low usage of this plants... YOU WILL NOT BECOME INTOXICATED FROM THE PLANT JUST BY TOUCHING IT. that is just impossible... yes chemicals get absorbed through ur body.. but its sooo small of an amount that it posses 0 risk on ur body.. your skin is ment to keep things out not in. The risk potential of Datura or anyother related plant is extremely small, even if ur where to inject a leaf it would probably cause slight irritation but nothing more.. you would have to consume the flower and probably more then 1. I research about plants and chemicals like these.. i know what im talking about.. If you have children, yes it can cause the threat but to yourself, its a joke unless you intentionally try to poison youself and eat a good deal of this plant.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

PF, your mushroom collector friend obviously either never encountered or had done his research on Amanita virsa and A. phalloides. Both are equally toxic and are not bitter. In fact, testimonials of victims on their deathbeds all have claimed just how delicious they were!

Tropcal, I do agree with you about the Psilocybe mushrooms. I think the victims of poisoning are those who consumed Amanita muscaria, a toxic, but also hallucinogenic fungus. Muscarine was once a popular fly killer. The fungus also contains alkaloids. Certain Native Americans as well as the Druids, were known to use A. muscaria. Unfortunately, this fungus is also quite toxic, but usually not fatally so, as it lacks phallin and phalloidin, the systemic toxins in the A. virosa and A. phalloides.

With the exception of Amanita caesarea, ALL Amanitas should be avoided. For the same reasons Arailia had her severe reaction to just touching the diluted water off her brug or dat plants, no one without protective gloves should even handle Amanitas of any species.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Tomato Worm59, yeah my friend was very aware of the various Amanita species. He even came across a person who supposedly had a method for preparing A. phalloides in such a way as to remove the toxins so they could be eaten. Now, who the heck would want to try that? I remember also how I read a recipie for preparing poison ivy for consumption (written by none other than the famous Eule Gibbons). Man, are these guys serious?! PF


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

I would like to know what the method is supposed to be. Just purely out of curiosity of course, because the world is full of wonderful, perfectly edible species such as Morchella esculenta, Pleurotus ostreatus, Agaricus campestris, Lycoperdons, Cantharellus, Boletus edulis and my own personal favorite, Calvatia gigantea, among many, many others.

Perhaps Lucy Kavaler would have given her entire royalty most likely, to have had the perfect solution to eating Amanita phalloides and A. virosa and live to tell about it! LOL!

I have no idea why people want to eat the inedible, unless it's just the indomitable desire to beat nature at its own game. I equate such to the Japanese daring to eat the poisonous sole, which takes a chef some 2 or more years to learn how to correctly prepare and cook it. Still, some 100 or more Japanese die annually from toxins in the fish. 20 or so years ago, one of their own national treasures, a famed Sumo wrestler, died from the dish.

Isn't this just like our own game of "Russian roulette?"


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

O_O People believe everything they read on Erowid dont they ...Tropicalpunch , so you know, the flower, while still in many specimines exceedingly toxic , is less so then the leaves are , and ... If you were to ' Inject' the alkaloids contained in ONE Toloache leaf during a full moon , the alkaloids would prove fatal , there is no question of this what so ever. One adult leaf taken during a full moon , and simply heated in two tablespoons melted tallow ... untill . its wilted , less than 10 minutes . if split up into equal portions , would provide easily 5, perhaps as many as 10 preperations ( depending on the specific plant) , applied to a area such as the wrists , or neck , would induce such delerium, that if you had no reason to undertake this and survived, you would credit that event as one of the most illogical things you ever attempted . You research things like these Tropical? are you in a postition to accept responsibilty if someone took seriously your claim that ' even if ur where to inject a leaf it would probably cause slight irritation but nothing more.. ' ? I am personaly going to put my own head on the choping block here folks . While it is true that these plants have been given a very bad reputation as a result of the people who ' Think' they can get ' high ' off them, they do indeed have very valuable applications, as medicine, and as plants that have played roles in the development and practice of human spirituality since time immemorial. I will say, it is one thing to research something , and research it alot , it is something totally different to state that if someone did something , there would be little or no harm incured, this is not only totally iresponsible , it is inethical. I personaly know the value of these plants, their medicinal applications have provided relief from ailments in my life, and the loss of self they have induced, provided the mechanisim of transition from the stage of youth to behond . It strikes me that you would have no intent what so ever to treat these plants either of the two ways that they require, as a beautiful garden plant , or a plant that is sacred .

Erowid is a both a blessing/ curse in this day and age, It provides knowledge that is activly being supressed, but then , the knowledge is not always accurate , having looked through their vaults, I will say the great majority of thoes posting ' information ' have little or no interest in many of the plants they discuss in the two senses stated above, as beautiful plants, or as sacred plants. If you do attempt to verify your own advice, be sure to notify your family that you were warned, and should you decease ( almost certin ) to post your death certificate . I am of the mindset people should be alowed to do what they wish with their own body , this is a right we as human beings should all be privilaged to . If you die as a result of these plants, if I die as a result of these plants , that is our fate, our own doing . But to state that 'even if ur where to inject a leaf it would probably cause slight irritation but nothing more.. ' could possibly be taken seriously by someone who was even less informed about the nature of these plants, then you yourself are ... It is folks like you who have directly contributed to the ' bad reputation ' these plants are gaining . This is not ment as a slam , this is being blunt Tropical. You wouldent handle any species of rattlesnake thinking it was safe to do so simply because it was 'said' to be a ' less toxic ' variety ? Granted, if it dident kill you , it still is probobly going to bite you , and it is going to hurt . I think in many ways the datura / brugmansia group is similar to these animals , and in many cultures directly associated ... Many will kill you, some will permenatly impair you , others will cause you great pain , and some may in select individuals cause minor swelling, each may be capable of anywhere in between , a dry bite of many of the more deadly of rattlesnakes, will likely still cause pain , but 'may' not kill you ... I compare the two, there are people who know these animals well, there are people who know these plants well , there are in some cases both ... Thoes that are truely informed understand from experience their risks. I doubt any rational herp expert would tell someone ' Go ahead and handle a copperhead, the most it will do will sting a bit ' ( no not rattlesnake but less venomous ' generaly' ) If someone who was in position to know stated that , they are no different . Was your intention to cause someone harm / death ? if so ... Find help ...


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

I do believe that there are some misinformation on erowid... with the mushroom aminitas was saying thoughs are toxic and thats how the cause hallucinations but not all hallucenigenic mushrooms are toxic. The injecting part is a typo, I ment to say enjest*** Im not saying its safe to consume, but i am saying its nothing to worry about, who's gonna consume unknown plant material?? other then consumation i see no reason why this plant should have a warning to its toxic natural as there are hundreds and thousands of other toxic plants. I was merely saying that the plant would be like any 'unedible' plant. Just dont eat it and your fine. As for people being allergic to it, I can understand, but people can be allergic to food! So my statement was trying to show its not something that needs to be worried about, just treat it like any other plant at the park or something and DON'T EAT IT and your fine...


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Tropical, I did not mean to say or even imply all hallucinogenic fungi are toxic. I WAS referring to Amanita muscaria, and not even touching on the Psilocybes. There is also another Amanita that mimicks the muscaria, A. rubescens. It is toxic and has no known "get high" alkaloids. Now another fungus, the Paneolus, is toxic, but I've heard of some claims to it's dope-like affects.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

I am just posting this for anyone with angel trumpets. My dog had to be taken to the vet as he had been quite ill for the past day or so. Where I live it is hard to find a vet on a sunday but luckily its a small town. Anyways we thought my dog had been in a fight with maybe a quill or a baby porcupine but as it is he had just had a run in with one of the seeds (sharp needles) from the angel trumpet plant we have in our garden by our shed. They are beautiful flowers but do not mix well with animals who are used to roaming without caution. He now has an absess on his shoulder, an open wound and is now on $60 dollar medication until he is better. He also as a puppy had epilepsy, he has been on medication since he was diagnosed. He had a re-occurance because of the whole incident. So just a warning keep them out of reach from yourself, children, and animals.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Angel Trumpet seed pods don't have spikes. You are talking about a datura, several kinds of those do have spikey seed pods. They are usually referred to as Devil's Trumpets. An Angel Trumpet is a brugmansia. As for the toxicity of both the daturas and brugs I think it depends on the person. I pinch the leaves and stems with bare hands. I'd never ingest any part of the plants and I'm careful not to touch my eyes or mouth after handling them. I've never had any type of reaction, contact dermatitis or anything else from them or any other plant, including poison ivy. Sorry to hear about your dog. I'm surprised that the spikes pierced his skin through his fur.
Karyn


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

  • Posted by chena z7 Texas (My Page) on
    Sun, Sep 17, 06 at 18:02

Hey!
Great thread... Thanks for the reminder.. I deadhead Dats everyday I always put them in the trash becoz of livestock and furbabies... BUT I always forget that just getting it on your skin could be toxic.. Guess I'm just lucky not to sensitive to stuff.. I will absolutly be more cautious...
Blessings
Chena


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

From what I understand, the tropane alkaloids contained within the genera Datura, Brugmansia, Iochroma, Atropa, and Mandragora are incredibly toxic. Anything that puts you in delirium for an entire day, then follows up with decreased motor skills and blurred vision for perhaps a week after the initial experience, should evidently be a mark of the toxicity of Scopolamine and Atropine. I've never heard of somebody dying from the toxic alkaloids themselves (and I would appreciate it if anybody could point me to an example), but I could definitely see the possibility of a person dying from malnourishment, dehydration, impact trauma (from falling, maybe, or stepping into traffic), or any number of neglects resultant from a state of delirium. Also, it is quite possible to become intoxicated by very minute quantities of vegetable material from the plants. The Preissels' book, "Brugmansia and Datura: Angel's Trumpets and Thorn Apples," illustrates that the meat of a species of duck in Mexico is poisonous at certain times of the year because they consume the foliage and seeds of Datura ceratocaula.

I touch my Datura all the time, even if it's just to get the scent of the leaf on my fingers. It's an alluring sensation, but I wouldn't allow the plant to touch my face. I recall sniffing the bloom of a Datura metel at a nursery once, and coming closer to the plant than I expected, putting my nose into the flower as far as it would go, touching the flesh of the organ all the way. For the rest of the day I felt light-headed and wanted to wander, but exhibited no other outward symptoms. I'm sure that a number of members of these forums can attribute an experience of altered physiology, even if it's so minor, to the very aroma of their Brugmansia or Datura.

As a side note, I consume the berries and bitter, solanine-containing foliage of my Solanum nodiflorum when the fruit is ripe, and experience no adverse effects. I don't eat it by the bushel, mind you, but I don't think that there's enough solanine within the plant to kill me after a handful of leaves and a bunch of berries. I would not suggest the ingestion of Solanum tuberosum foliage, nor any foliage from a solanaceous plant, without knowing the relative concentration of the alkaloids within the plant. Also, sinner_gurl mentioned that tomatoes were once referred to as wolf peaches. Lycopersicon, indeed, means 'wolf peach'! No clue what the whole wolf thing is about, though.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

I must not be sensitive at all to these plants. I always put my face in the brug blossoms and get pollen all over me. I use my hands to cross pollinate some of the flowers and have never experienced any effect whatsoever. I do the same thing with my daturas.
Karyn


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

I have never had any problems touching my brugs.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

This posting won't seem to go away..so here's my 2 cents worth.I've handled HUNDREDs of cuttings,for many years,and Have NEVER experienced anything uncomfortable.But,I would Never eat,drink,or otherwise consume any brug part.There's plenty of plants that grow wild around here that I would never consume either.But,some folks may be sensitive,so lets be careful,and just enjoy the view!Mark


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

This same story has been passed around the net for at least the last two years. Many plants we grow in the garden are poisonous. Common sense is required.
Pam


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

I find a lot of encouragement in this thread...especially the teens that steal datura seeds and ingest them. I see some distinct advantages to the status quo. If the kids stealing the seed ingest enough they'll rid the world of their genetic shortcomings before they can pass on those faulty genes to possible progeny. Some of the kids are possibly prodigies in passing on their genes as even younger teens. I don't have an easy answer for dealing with that situation other than the wistful hope they'll continue sampling from people's gardens and begin doing it at ever younger ages. If we're fortunate they'll find some other toxic substance before puberty. if they're lucky they'll be memorialized by being included in Darwin's Lists.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

I agree with lilies4me on the idea that those who choose self-destruction should, by all means, self-destroy, but I do not believe there to be a large genetic factor in such action. After all, how many of us have a genetic predisposition to jumping off cliffs? While genes may be present in some form which encourage the individual's want to alter one's physiology, the greatest factor is environment. Throughout my years in middle school, I had a friend who was much like me, if not more like me than myself. After my freshman in high school, I moved away and was subjected to isolation for about three months, during which I did a lot of reflection and thinking. My friend, in my initial absence, found himself quite misplaced. I felt much the same way. He surrounded himself with a multitude while I had virtually no contact whatsoever. After some time, he found appeal in many things, including drugs. I, on the other hand, took solace in mixing disco and heavy metal into my musical tastes. This would be the precursor to a massive rewiring of my synapses which produced what I can, today, call myself. At the eighth grade, my friend and I were almost indistinguishable. Nowadays, we could not be further apart. I am not trying to illustrate any superiority, but rather to show an example of environmental influences upon the self. Zen versus instant gratification is the result. I could delve into stranger incidences, but I would rather not go there.

Point is, let the kids have their way. Darwinism will control what goes on in places where rowdy bunches of hooligans choose to raid gardens. Ethics are non-existent when one subjects oneself to one's own device.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

This summer I received a cutting of Angel Trumpet. I didn't know what it was, she reffered to it as trumpet flower. I planted it in my garden, and recently saw it on Breakfast Television. It was stated that you could harvest the seeds, but had to be very careful, as the plant was very toxic. I decided to try this. I opened the seed pods with a knife, and scooped them out into an envelope. I immediately washed my hands.
Within ten minutes, I felt shortness of breath, slightly dizzie and tingling in my fingers. This lasted about forty minutes, bringing me to this website, to see what was wrong with me. I feel fine now, but I don't think I will be planting the seeds, as I have small children.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Chances are you touched a datura, as brugs are more of container plants that normally grow into trees. Daturas are often mistaken as angels trumpes, but while in the same family, are 2 totally different plants. I have never had any side affects from touching any plant, not even poison ivy... perhaps you are allergic to a chemical in the plant... something to get tested for.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

I have 4 Brugs which I pull yellow leaves and faded blooms off regularly without gloves, never had a reaction. And for years have removed seed pods from Datura with a nipper and bare hand, no reaction, until about a month ago. I nipped about 20-30 pods off the datura to encourage more bloom (very successful) but after about 10 minutes my fingers that transferred the pods to the trash can began to tingle, I realized I was having some kind of reaction to the datura. Immediately washed my hands with 2 very strong soaps one contained pumice the other a brown soap used to remove grease. The tingling subsided but, I did experience light sensitivity and my pupils did enlarge. I DID NOT get high. But will be more concious of how I handle the plant in the future. of course I did not tell DH about this all the Dats and Brugs would wind up in the trash if I did.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

I experienced watching my son hallucinate after having ingested angel trumpet. I had to take him to emergency room where I sat for 5 hours while they did a cat scan ( because the toxin can cause brain swelling or fluid on the brain) multiple blood tests, for liver and kidney failure, drug screening to see what all he had ingested, and an EKG and then the agony as a mother just sitting there watching your son talking to thin air and to people who were not even there. Kids if you are thinking about trying this drug DONT! It can cause permanent brain damage or even death. Find jobs not drugs and make something of yourselves instead of experimenting with the unknown or trying to prove a point to your so called "friends" if you feel you have to prove something to the kids you call friends then they are not true friends. True friends don't expect you to prove anything they like you for who you are not what you can do or stories you can tell about what kind of drugs you have tried in your short lives. Believe me coming from a parent with a teenager, Please just say NO to any form of drug or alcohol. As the emergency room nurse told my son," You are not a goat, don't eat plants!"


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

Does anyone think that stories like the one Araillia posted might influence others reactions to the plant??? Like a placebo effect.

Yes the person mentioned probably had an adverse effect but do you think everyone(the majority)who havnt had bad effects have posted their experiences.I can see my heartbeat/pulse fluctuating if I thought I'd been poisoned by a plant everyone has been preaching kills teenagers.

The uneducated or plain careless experimenters end up in hospital (and of course those with allergic reactions)

Wildcat said
"but I do take the original story about with a few grains of salt...as I do most of the crap that floats around the Internet."

great someone who questions what they are fed

TNGreenThumb said
"Flame me all you want, but if someone intentionally ingests something that they haven't fully investigated (or even if they have) then the consequences are what they are. I shall weep not a tear."

AdamFeatherFeline said
"While it is true that these plants have been given a very bad reputation as a result of the people who ' Think' they can get ' high ' off them, they do indeed have very valuable applications, as medicine, and as plants that have played roles in the development and practice of human spirituality since time immemorial....I am of the mindset people should be alowed to do what they wish with their own body , this is a right we as human beings should all be privilaged to....

Couldn't agree more,

lilies4me said
"If the kids stealing the seed ingest enough they'll rid the world of their genetic shortcomings before they can pass on those faulty genes to possible progeny."

LOL and my favourite post quote (sarcasm)

chantillylace37 said
"Find jobs not drugs and make something of yourselves"

You mean I shouldn't drink coffee or alcohol and smoke tabacco and take my pescriptions?Does anyone else find this comment horribly stereotypical and narrowminded???

AdamFeatherFeline said
"treat these plants either of the two ways that they require, as a beautiful garden plant , or a plant that is sacred "

Well said people!!


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

The statement:

"YOU WILL NOT BECOME INTOXICATED FROM THE PLANT JUST BY TOUCHING IT"

begs a definition of "intoxicated" and "touching"

The oils from a plant become more concentrated at certain times of day.

If a person roughly handles or handles for an extended period of time without protection a toxic plant (I think it's agreed that all parts of the datura are poisonous) with oils concentrated at it's surface (especially from leaves or seeds) it is reasonable to assume that a person could become dizzy. It is also reasonable to assume that a person could define "dizzy" as "intoxicated" especially if it is an unpleasant experience.

Skin is an organ and does absorb to a certain extent substances. If the poster of the statement doesn't believe this he/she can try using DMSO on his/her skin.

Poisonous effects vary from person to person based a number of factors including metabolism. The poster doesn't seem to have a sensitive system.


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RE: Angel Trumpet Warning

This is a rather aged thread, but I couldn't help but chime-in on it, because this has become a subject in our home. (I beg your forgiveness for resurrecting the dead.)

Brugmansia (Angel's Trumpet), Datura (Devil's Trumpet), and notable others (Belladonna, ad infinitum) in the plant kingdom, have highly variable toxic/pharmacological affect upon the human body; as well as wildly varying concentrations of such substances, within their parts and on their surfaces, over time.

As a category, humans vary widely in their susceptibility to the various alkaloids found in such plant specimens. Furthermore, individuals have a wide variation in their reactions to such substances over the course of any time interval you might be interested in examining. I would imagine age to be a huge factor in some cases.

There is much misinformation being disseminated on both sides of the fence with respect to this issue toxicity/sensitivity.

I, myself, have been working with Brugs for quite some time, now, and do not--for the most part--react adversely to any of the plant substances I have encountered. While I certainly don't ingest the plant or anything from it, I don't take what I consider to be paranoid measures to protect myself from being exposed to, or decontaminating myself after exposure, Brugmansia plant parts or secretions.

I have had a single incidence of slightly blurred vision in my right eye after accidentally getting a dose of Brug sap in it. It was not much of an incident, if I may say so, and was--at most--a minor irritant to me for a couple of hours. I have had zero effect from wading into my Brugs with the pruning shears and getting my hands and arms covered in the plant secretions, along with a nick or cut--or two--on my hands and elbows. This is regular behavior for me, and I have not developed the habit of conversing with my toe nails or lady bugs.

I do, however, react violently to things like malathion analogues and consumer-level defoliants; and cannot tolerate exposure to them for even short periods of time; so, I take far more care about avoiding manufactured chemicals than I would ever think about with respect to my Brugs, and I haven't many stories to tell as a consequence.

Maybe I should type-up alarmist-toned messages, warning people not to ingest insecticides and weed killers, and spread them around the Internet?

Naw....it's too insulting to the intelligence of the reader.

In terms of credibility, the story attributed to the Y! group does have the overall tone of the Apocryphal alarmist tale--complete with the liberal use of the exclamation point for emphasis. It rings far more like a fabrication; woven from generally valid bits of common sense, and taken to the extreme; than it sounds like the narrative of an actual event.

We all benefit from the application of valid common sense; which, admittedly, seems to be rarer these days that it was when I was a kid.

Nobody benefits from histrionics--except, maybe, Snopes.

"Hmm...methinks I am being fed some BS on the Internet."--WildCat

I do have to agree.


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