I don't know the answer to this question, because I've never been able to grow a spicebush. I'm just hoping that mine will come back from the roots - we went through a hot, dry spell last summer, I forgot to water it, and the tops all died back. Is there anybody on the forum who's ever grown a vigorous one?
MissSherry

I've had pretty good luck with Spicebush.
They are not vigorous,
but grow pretty well in shade or full sun.
Mine are 5 years old and only about 5'tall.

If you have Spicebush butterflies in your area, they are a must.

Tom

Although I did find two spicebush cats on my little bush last year before it died back, they normally use sassafras here. In south Texas and south Florida, they're known to use camphor tree/cinnamomum camphora, so you don't just HAVE to have lindera benzoin/spicebush to get the swallowtails.
MissSherry

I also (zone 10) haven't been able to keep spicebush alive.
First I had them in sun and they did not do well. Then I moved them to part-sun/shade where they finally died.
I'm guessing they need more water than they got (we had a drought).
I'll try again someday.

misssherry,

We had a spicebush that was here when we moved to our house ages ago. The shrub is now at least 12' high, but that seems to be unusual. If my memory is correct, I've never see them that big in the natural areas around here. We've had a few volunteers grow up in the yard, and have bought a few additional shrubs since they solve some of our garden problems. My yard has what are probably the perfect conditions for spicebush. We have moist, acidic soil and lots of shade. Most years I notice at least a few spicebush volunteers.

We have had trouble with the shrubs that were planted in areas that were too dry and/or too sunny and had to move those to areas they preferred. Spicebush are adaptable, but not quite as adaptable as some of the books and sites I've seen say they are.

Jeff,

I looked a couple of places, but didn't find an answer about how drastic the pruning could be. You might want to try the shrubs forum, or the link I've included below which is an ask a question link on Ladybird Johnson Wildflower Site which covers all North American native plants.

-- Lori

Here is a link that might be useful: ask a question link on Ladybird Johnson Wildflower Site

Yes, Lori, I get the impression that you need a wet, shady site to successfully grow spicebush. I planted mine in just such a spot, but it only took one dry spell - with me forgetting to water it - to do it in. I really think that's it's better adapted to areas without such intense summer heat as we have here.
There're a few other types of lindera that are native here, but, so far, I haven't been able to order them. I can't find any native plant, mail-order nurseries that carry lindera subcoriacea, and I'll have to visit Woodlander's myself to get l. melissifolia, since it's on the endangered list and can't be shipped outside of SC. I've got quite a few other members of the laurel family from Asia planted, some of them lindera, in case our native laurels all get killed by that awful laurel wilt - Asian plants are usually tougher than North American corresponding species. So, my spicebush swallowtails will have to stick to sassafras, for now anyway.
MissSherry

In the end, we decided to put tiger lilies in that area and put a spicebush in place of a barberry where it can expand to its heart's delight.

Jeff

MissSherry,

I have no idea if it's the same where you are, but around here I'm able to get native plants I couldn't find at local nurseries by going to spring or fall sales put on by Audubon, by a wildflower preserve, and to a lesser extent master gardener groups and arboretums. I was very happy at finding two natives I've wanted for a while, namely Carpinus caroliana (American hornbean) and Sambucus canadensis (common elderberry).

-- Lori

The Arboretum in Picayune used to have native plant sales, Lori, but it's been quite a few years since they've done so - I haven't seen any other native plant sales. I order most of my native plants from Mail Order Natives, Woodlanders, and Pine Ridge Gardens. I ordered two carpinus caroliniana trees from MON last year, and they grew from about 18" to about 5' in one year! I love 'em!
An elderberry came up all on it's on on my property close to the house, so of course I left it to grow - the birds love those berries!
MissSherry

I Googled lindera subcoriacea, and look what I found - my old thread! This happens to me all the time - I Google something about butterflies, caterpillars, or host plants, and my own words pop up!
I was browsing Woodlander's the other day and found that they now sell lindera coriacea/bog spicebush! I ordered three plants, so I'm looking for as much information as I can find as to how to grow them successfully. I've got a sunny, wet site picked out for them, and I'll probably add sphagnum peat moss or something else acidic to ensure that the soil is acid enough. Hopefully, they'll thrive and then I can see if the spicebush swallowtails will use them. I always like to have more than one type of host plant for all my butterflies, so in case a calamity befalls the main host - in this case sassafras - I'll have another back up host. And, of course, it's exciting to try and grow rare plants, which this one is. It'll probably be better adapted to southeast MS than l. benzoin, which doesn't do well here - bog spicebush/l. coriacea was first discovered right here in my immediate area.
Sherry

It wasn't until just this past week that I learned that spicebushes are male and female. I just never really gave it a thought before. I bought two tiny bushes last year and was planning on starting more someday from berries that I thought I'd eventually get off of the bushes. Being that I don't know what sex(es) mine are, I might have to go to an alternate plan and start new ones from cuttings. I might have two males or two females, so in that case I guess there would be no berries unless of course there are others closeby.

I'm glad that mine didn't get any SBST's on them last year because they wouldn't have even provided enough food for one cat. I know that I have SBST butterflies here in the garden every year and am not sure if the cats here are eating spicebushes or sassafras or both. I think there are some sassafras trees in the woods around here.

Cathy

Yes, Cathy, spicebushes and sassafras come in male and female, but, unless you want the berries for the birds - which I would - then the leaves are the same on plants of either sex. I've noticed from pictures that the flowers of l. benzoin and l. coriacea look just like those of sassafras, so you can see how they're closely related. Birds just LOVE sassafras fruit - I've got a few female trees that make the fruit about every other year - and the mockingbirds and thrashers fight over them. I imagine they'd love spicebush fruit, too if I can ever provide them with any!
Sherry

I am looking for Spicebush seeds or plants. I do not get the Spicebush Swallowtail here but if flies north of where I live. I have a good butterfly garden which has attracted many rare and uncommon butterflies to my area. Maybe I could have a stray Spicebush Swallowtail. Or if someone has eggs of Spicebush Swallowtails I'd like some.

While I really enjoyed your thread about your garden, I would caution against trying to "import" new species of either plant or butterfly. The consequences can be unforeseen ...

Jeff

Sherry, It's amazing what a person can learn here on the forum, not just about butterflies but about all kinds of plants too. I'm like you and would actually like the bushes to have berries for the birds. Birds were my first passion before I got into butterflies, so now I enjoy both.

I hope that my spicebushes make it over the winter; we've had a pretty brutal winter so far with temps as low as minus 15 deg. I don't know how many years it will take before I know if mine are male or female or both, but I hope it's not too long. I'd like to get more in the event that neither of mine are female. You saying how much the birds like sassafras berries and saying how closely it's related to spicebush makes me really want more bushes. I wish there were a way of knowing the sex of a bush when a person buys it. There's no way of knowing before it would actually get berries, right? I've had a mockingbird hanging around here that I know would just love the spicebush berries if the bushes here would get any.

I'm sorry to hear that your L. benzoin bushes didn't make it and hope that your L. subcoriacea do well.
Cathy

Thanks for the advice Jeff :-)

Danny,

However, one never knows what might show up in your yard, if you just provide good nectar and host plants. I grow tropicals in pots on my patio. I don't trade for exotic BFs or purchase them. I do trade and share with local people. When you start researching plants, you'll learn lots of the BF favs are not natives. Lantana and buddleia are two that come to mind easily. So, as much as I love natives, I have some that aren't. If these plants were noxious weeds in my state, I wouldn't be growing them. I check out all plants on the USDA plant database.

You have the makings of a good habitat. Just give it some time. "If you plant it, they will come." If the BFs are in the area, they'll find your place. I've documented 72 different species in 2 years time. My last BF documentation was the 3rd sighting for our state, an Orange Barred Sulfur female. It was a county record. It just showed up and nectared on a red salvia. It also found my Cape Honeysuckle on my patio. I'm sure that particular BF came all the way from Texas because I planted a tropical plant! The spooky thing is that BF made it all the way up to NE OK without anyone else spotting it.

Also, I suggest you get involved with the Texas lep site. You will learn a lot and have opportunities to help document the lep in your state. You'll also meet some great people who will be glad to share your passion. Your state has so many wonderful opportunities to add to your BF checklist.

Sandy

I have lots of volunteer spicebushes in the woods area of my back yard. None have made it past 3' tall because the deer keep them pruned.

KC

Those are the size the the butterflies love to lay eggs on. Do you ever pot any of them up?

Those are just the size that the butterflies like for ovipositing.

Sandy

Sandy,

I'm not sure what you mean but "pot any of them up?" Do you mean dig up the bushes and put them in pots? If so, I have never done that.

I have yet to ever see a spicebush cat on the bushes (I keep looking for folded leaves). I don't know whether I've ever seen a spicebush swallowtail here. I assume all the dark colored swallowtails I see around here are BSTs. They are not nice enough to land and give me a good view.

KC

I sure was redundant in my posting! Guess I didn't check it before pushing submit.

The reason for asking if you had ever potted any of the spicebushes is that last year the SBSs found my small plants that I had for market and laid eggs on all of them. They devoured every plant. This spring the leaves sprouted back out. The spicebush butterflies haven't returned yet. Hopefully, they'll be back later in the summer. Most of the pupae overwintered and eclosed this spring.

I have a spice bush that was here when we bought the house. It is at least 8 ft and extremely healthy. We are looking to move it to another location in order to install a privacy fence, but some of these posts make me nervous. It is really in an "in the way" spot to do anything at the back of the property, but I'd hate to los such a healthy plant. Anyone ever transplant an established bush before?

Everything I read about them suggests they are difficult to transplant. They are fibrous rooted, which is better than trying to transplant a tap rooted shrub or tree at least. I would dig far and wide, trying to preserve as much of the root ball as possible. Copious amounts of water are recommended to counter transplant shock.

If there are seedlings or suckers around, I would also try to dig and pot some up, in case you lose the big shrub.

These are very slow growing shrubs, so don't expect too much growth after transplantation.

Susan

I have a love affair with this plant, but have not yet had success with it. Last year mine completely pooped out from the heat and 2 hours of high noon sun, with all shade the rest of the a.m. and p.m.. It was also planted in pretty clay-ee soil.

I got another one this year and planted in nearly all day shade under a dogwood tree and it is in a deep and wide bed of 70% sphagnum and the rest good rich bagged soil. So far it seems happy, but that seems to be a VERY subtle state for spicebush and I am not yet reassured that I will have success. I figure if it can now make it through two spring awakenings and summers it might be considered established, but until then, I'm just crossing my fingers and giving it lots of water. I know it's a female, it was sexed in the nursery, so if it gets established I hope to find a male for it.

I'm glad to have found this thread and conversation because online information about Lindera benzoin barely mentions that they can be hard to establish and be very particular. It's gotta be some kind of perfect soil for it to survive in much sun at all from my experience, though it is often listed as adaptable to lots of sun, but I don't buy that advice.

I have a spice bush that's about five years old now and about ten feet tall. It's doing alright, but it took a while to get established. They like wet soil or at least they need to be well watered and not exposed to direct sun very much when they are growing.

My problem is that I don't get caterpillars on mine very often. I didn't notice any last year and I haven't seen any this year. I'm thinking of ordering a few more to see if I can get enough to really attract the butterflies. Around here they really seem to like the Camphor bushes. They seem to be invasive here, so I can't buy any. I'd really like to find a few, since they are easier to grow than the lindera benzoin.

My limited experience with spicebush in my zone 7b is that my transplants require almost all shade conditions and lots of water. I planted as under story plants below a canopy of native oak in a raised bed. We have had unusually high temps the past two summers. I have two that came back (out of three planted last season) and I've planted four more this season, in which three are still growing. One this year just seemed to never take well and it's little leaves just curled up, dried and the stem appears to be dead. All transplants were delivered bare root. The weakest of the four bare rooted plants received this spring was potted up and it's doing very well. It gets very early morning sun and the rest of the day it is in high shade.

My largest spicebush planted last year put up a sucker this spring so I think it must have a fairly good root system. I don't know the sex of any of the transplants, which is why I'm trying to get so many established. I hope I'll have at least one healthy male and female someday.

Mary

Tom,
I might be able to help you with the Camphor. We have two that we keep small for the Spicebush Swallowtail and I often find seedlings growing nearby. If I find a couple, do you want them?

I never got back with you about the PawPaw. The second one that I bought back in the spring has now died so I spent $15 a piece for nothing. DH planted them as we were told and I did what I was told for upkeep but no luck. If you still have some, I'd swap with you - I'm not going to buy anymore but still would give yours a try.

JCragle,

From what I've read I think you could keep them pruned back and if you have a high deer population there they might do it for you. Anyway I wouldn't be afraid of trying it if it were me. Good luck and happy growing.

The "Future Plants by Randy Stewart" website states that lindera benzoin can be trained to small trees. I have not yet pruned mine but will eventually have to because they get so big. I don't anticipate any problems pruning them.

I red that they don’t take pruning very good . They should be growing with minimum pruning . Pruning them to much can kill the tree. They are beautiful when grown with a lot of room.

Brigitte is relaying incorrect information. Lindera takes very well to pruning.

Still adding to this discussion......... When I bought my first two lindera (early in Spring), I chose one with dried berries and one without. I planted them under trees. My soil is clay and is wet and soggy in the spring. The female got berries the next year. I "plant" the berries in the same area in early fall - no special treatment - and it looks like most of them root.

As I was planting my little copse of native trees, I went into Shorthills Provincial Park and St. John's Conservation area to see what is growing there, and where (dry? shade?, wet?). I chose my trees and shrubs and bought them at local native plant sales and local nurseries that sell native plants. All of my trees and shrubs are thriving - because I chose them for the conditions I have. I have Freeman maple (not my first choice but we needed 2 large trees to block the neighbours), ironwood (ostrya) , blue beech (carpinus), spicebush (lindera), black gum (nyssa), striped maple (acer ), tulip tree (liriondendron), white pine, sassafrass. I also have pin oak (gathered acorns and planted them where they are growing) but don't know if I'll let them grow because I don't want the nuts falling into the neighbour's yard. All planted between 2013 and 2017. All (except freeman's) were saplings so I've been pruning all so they turn into a nice shape. One more year of that and they will be fine on their own.

Yeah, I'm sure Brigitte had an experience that lead her to state this, maybe she had sickly Lindera; but mine have always totally ignored prunings and just kept growing. I've had wonderful results over the last 9 years with my older two lindera shaping them through pruning into lovely shaped 12+ feet tall shrub/trees fitting for their location. I LOVE Benzoa Lindera.

Keith - Did your Spicebushes keep "suckering", and would you say that this is a problem? I'd like to see a pic of one of yours. I would like to try to make a one or two trunk tree. My location (soil, light, moisture) is perfect for one, but it's a tight spot and there is no space for a shrub.

I'll get a picture up here. I've had the spicebushes for quite a while and only this last summer did they send some actual runners out and I wanted a couple of them, but nothing that couldn't be easily controlled. Here and there over the whole yard I do find that seeds have planted but they are also not so numerous as to be bothersome and I have saved some of the seedlings for another location. But to your question, no major suckering problem at all. I'll get a picture here of my two large spicebushes shortly.

I bought two very small ones not knowing the sex f either... how close should I plant them from each other if I want any chance of them pollinating (assuming they are differing sexes)? If I plant them 50 feet apart is that too far?

Mine are planted about two feet apart and some produced berries this season. I don't really know what the max spacing can be if you expect them to pollinate each other.