Sandy

I haven't had any zebra swallowtails on my pawpaws yet either. But I don't see too many adults around here and my pawpaws are small and I don't think there are any others growing nearby either.

Sherry - how big is your pawpaw? How many years have you had it and how many pawpaws do you have?

Al_compost

I know the excitement of raising a new species. Remember me last year with the Pipevine caterpillars?? You would have thought I had a winning lottery ticket dropped in my lap!

Congrats, Maryann

2) I suggest you don't try to raise all of them in a cage. I suggest you raise at least a few in GLAD containers (and not too many in each container since they have been known to eat each other). The cage method went horribly for me last year while the GLAD containers recommended by bananasinohio worked much better. YMMV

KC

Just remembered I did not tell you everything Elisabeth told me. She had me keep a damp paper towel in the bottom of the container. I remember the cats spending more time on the towels than on the leaves.

I really hope whatever you try works.

KC

Paw paw leaves are fairly dry and do not mold. If the paper towel is dry and you clean the frass daily, you do not have a problem. I raised quite a few this way. I would not keep it outside in the sun in 80 plus weather though. In the shade or in my house is fine. Also, after seeing a couple "commercial" operations, I am more comfortable with sealed tupperware type operations. This is used for one to a few caterpillars where they are raising lots of caterpillars. As long as you check it daily it is fine. Think about all the moths larvae that are grown on media in cups for university experiments, or the painted lady kits with media kids get. Now, some caterpillars may be more susceptible to certain diseases. You have to work with them and find what works for you and the type of caterpillar you are working with.

One thing that I did when feeding the zebras was to sterilize the leaves. I cut a branch with five or six leaves on it, filled a tub with water and put a couple tablespoons of bleach in it. Then I submerged the branches in it. Then I drained the tub and rinsed, and rinsed the leaves till I was sure I could not smell any bleach. I then could put the leaves in a vase and they kept really well. I could cut off a leaf as I needed it. This helps keep certain viruses and fungi at bay. Not to mention, hopefully, rinses off tachnid fly eggs, (I hope).

Hope that helps,
Elisabeth

I kept my towels a tad damp, dumped the frass daily and changed the towels every other day. I don't remember whether I poked holes in the top or not.

Just brought all my pupas in the house since the house is actually cooler than the shed, at least for the last couple days. I have the ZST next to the BST and keeping my fingers crossed that everybody emerges in good shape.

Sherry,
It looks like you keep at least some of your cages outside. Do you ever have problems with animals (specifically neighborhood cats) trying to get into your cages? Putting cages on my back deck would help me expand my operation but I'm worried the neighbor's cat would attack the cages. She has already proven adept at eating luna males attracted to my females, clearing a 4' fence to get at them.

KC

Try the tupperware. It is so much easier. If you are not comfortable with the babies try it with an older instar just to experiment. Just take a leaf off and place it on the paper towel. No water needed. They really do survive very well.

Isn't it amazing how they very in color. I have read in the research that it is due to temperature but who knows. They can vary from almost black to almost cream. You will be amazed at how tiny the chrysalis is and how big a butterfly can come out of it!

Good Luck,
Elisabeth

As for the tupperware, I seem to remember that pawpaw leaves have antifingal properties so they may not mold readily, but the caterpillars... bah just ignore me I have no experience with ZT, I am just reliving childhood horror stories with other species.

I think I read somewhere that ZT caterpillars have some unusual behavioral traits compared to other swallowtails in regards to their mobility, but google is not being helpful in this case. It could be that smaller containers help them find their way to their foodplant once they crawl off?

Take this with a fist of salt because I cannot find this repeated elsewhere but I think I remember a reference stating that when not feeding ZT caterpillars hide in leaf litter at the base of the tree.

In addition, ZT caterpillars apparently require fresh, newly expanding leaves- old mature one's just won't due. "When hatched, the larvae feed on the leaves. This requirement for new leaves may limit reproduction of zebra swallowtails. New growth on the pawpaws may be stimulated by the defoliation action of the pyralid moth, which also eats pawpaw leaves. As a result the abundance of zebra swallowtails may be dependent on abundance of the pyralid moths to stimulate new growth as much as on the abundance of pawpaw"

So difficulties may not be due to the species. This species is rarely raised, so I think rearing methods just may not be refined. I encourage you to experiment with this species and its conditions. Some in a sealed container, some with leaf detritus at the bottom of the cage (if my memory is right...) and some with the newest leaves you can find. Hey, make it your own little study! The results could help people raising this species everywhere.

As to behavior, we have one paw paw tree in our butterfly house at the arboretum. Last summer we had an over population of zebras. As my hubby put it "an infestation". At some points of the day you would see twenty plus caterpillars chomping away and then poof, nothing. Who knows what the cue was.

Sherry, you will get the hang of it and then they will become one of the easiest of the caterpillars to raise. I think pipevines are harder because the leaves collapse so easily. Speaking of which, I have three that have eclosed due to the 84 degree April weather and then we will have 60's next week. Not to mention not a lot of nectar flowers out there yet. Yeesh.
- Elisabeth

Sherry, I think you are right about humidity. Although, they grow here in Ohio in dry conditions once established. However, they tend to prefer streambanks. I attended a lecture that talked about the fact that the fruit floats and a friend of mine mentioned paw paw fossils. I can't help but think that they just slowly floated their way up to North America over a million years and the Zebra came with them!

You don't have to wet the paper towels. This will cut down on effort and disease. Also, you can just shake the dry frass out this way too. Just make sure you know where your caterpillar is.

Sherry, how are they dying?

Elisabeth

Thanks for your documentation on these Cats. I know it's kind of emotional, especially when you've invested all the time into it :)

-Nick

Keep us posted,
Elisabeth

If they are doing fine, don't worry about the bleach. However, if you want to go the extra step, it wouldn't hurt and you can get comfortable with it. Don't forget, they actually sterilize buttefly eggs with 10 percent bleach solution. You can start small with a half cup bleach in a half full bathtub to rinse a bunch of paw paw branches. Then just drain and let the shower run on them for a while. It is really easy this way. But like I said, if things are working for you now. Don't worry. We lost some of ours to what appeared to be a microsporidia. It is simillar to OE in monarchs. They become sluggish and almost mummify. This happens when they are overcrowded like we had last year.

-Elisabeth

http://eorganic.info/files/u33/NPV.jpg

Susan

Congrats BTW!

If you are losing them at the molts and they are not turning black, melting, or smelly, it really sounds like a microsporidia. How is their frass? Healthy looking, not dry or runny? I am part of a, drat what is the word, email loop(?)for butterfly disease. I will post it there and see if I get any responses on zebras.

I think microsporidas are the worst. The bugs can and do live fine with them in the wild but if they get stress, like being reared in a cage, they die. However, the alternative, being eaten by a wasp, is much worse.

Keep trying,
Elisabeth

AL_compost

ZSTs are not the caterpillar you want to try sticky traps with. From what I've read, the ZST cats would likely end up in those traps since the cats will hide out in the leaf litter at the bottom of the pawpaw.

catman529,

I'd love to experiment with ZSTs and rearing bags but I don't have a pawpaw big enough to do it. My gut feeling is it would not work very well.

KC

Last year, most of my zebra cats were dark...this year, my largest one is pale like the one in the photo above. It's growing very fast...hopefully it will get bigger than last year's cats, which only got about an inch long before pupating. This one has a good chance of reaching a better size.

sandy

Jeff

Mine pupated green (I think the color is determined by their surroundings; this one was surrounded by its hostplant leaves when it went into pre-pupa so I think that's why it turned green)

Last year I got a video of a zebra cat molting into the pupa stage - I should dig that one out sometime.

Catman, I am not sure about color. You are probably right. Most of the studies seem to indicate it is related to time spent around the host plant. It seemed like to me that most of the ones that overwintered were brown and most of the ones that eclosed (even at the end of the season) were green. However, I had at least one green one overwinter. Isn't it a lovely shade of green?

They will turn dark before eclosing. Not as dark as Monarchs, but you should be able to tell.

Cheers,
Elisabeth

Cool photo - I successfully reared one Giant last year; hopefully I can do better this year. The nearest foodplant that I know of (where I found the cats) is a 3.5 mile bike ride away from home, so refreshing the food isn't as easy as with the Zebras.

I have about 10 other specimens that range from 5th instar down to 1st and 2nd instar. I plan to rear these all and release them as adults. I don't remember seeing this many specimens last year!

It was about 3mm long when I found it, so I didn't quite rear it from an egg. Right now, though, I've got one that's in its last instar that I did rear from an egg. That reminds me, it desperately needs more leaves. Got to go get some...

I can't quite picture your set up. If the tupperware tops are flat it may be a problem. I have had problems with them pupating on the tupperware tops if they are flat, as they are slick and if I am not there to watch them they cannot get to something to crawl up and stretch. I have had success if they pupate on the tops, with the pupa hanging down,on a wire rack shelf. then they can hang of the case or the wire. Alternatively, you could release the pupa and low temp hot glue it to a stick or something. We have done this with a bunch at the arb. We made a nice cage with 3 inch by 10 inch wood boards to glue them to. The boards slide in and out. They can grasp these boards as well as the cases. The sides of the cages are mesh the can hang from as well. We designed this after seeing a couple simillar things at other exhibits. The only thing is to make sure which side to glue down. I think you can figure that out.

On another note, I spotted a zebra in my yard. By the time I got a net out to catch her she disappeared. I checked out my paw paws and there were no eggs. We went out for a couple hours and when we came back there were eggs. Now, you would think this is a cause for celebration but my paw paws are 12 inches high with about 5 leaves each. I had to practically denude each of them to take the eggs. So, I have eggs now. I would have prefered to have momma so I could take her to the arb to lay her eggs. Oh well....

-Elisabeth

I grew up in NYC and I still get dizzy at times there. You should go with your daughter there. They have some wonderful plays and musicals on broadway this year. During the winter the American Museum of Natural History has a butterfly house. It is tiny but has some of the birdwings. Very pretty.

Cheers,
Elisabeth

May 17, late evening

May 18, basking before its first time flying in the wild.

This specimen spent only 10 days in the pupal stage! That's about as fast as it gets...

I'm rearing a total of 11 specimens (including the one that has emerged) and so far, only one of them dies. If I successfully release 10 out of 11 specimens, I'm guessing that would do some good to boost the ZST population, assuming that the survival rate in the wild would not be as high. Does anyone have thoughts on this? Is it likely that 10 out of 11 would survive in the wild?

In the case of my first batch of monarch cats, as you've seen, the survival rate in the wild turned out to be 0%. Better luck next time with that...

-Jmcat

sandy

As I said in another thread, several years ago I had ordered two paw paw trees online. I don't think they ever were alive from the time I got them. I had the same thing happen again with more that I ordered, so I gave up on buying them from people. I think small ones in pots would be okay, but I'm leery about the bareroot ones. I had also tried to start them from seed a few years ago, but I hadn't done my homework and didn't know that they needed shade the first couple of years. They came up and were a few inches high but then died. After I found out that they should have been in shade, I knew that's what killed them.

A friend saw that someone had seeds for sale online last year and so I decided to give it another shot and planted some that I can plant out in the backyard. They're about half a foot tall, and they're getting planted next month. I've never seen a Zebra Swallowtail here or anywhere else as far as I know (unless I saw one before I got into butterflies and just didn't know what it was at the time). None have been reported for my county. I was told that they hang out around the river several counties away. If only I could make a trail of paw paw trees from there to here! I sure hope that I'll be able to attract them here sometime. We live fairly close to a creek, so I'm hoping that will help. Do you have a body of water right near where you are? I think you mentioned that you only have one or two paw paw trees, didn't you?

You said you're going to try to raise them again. Do you have any type of strategy? I didn't know if you'd try a different method. I'm still baffled over why I have so many GSTs die when I feed them rue. The eggs get laid on those plants, so it's not like I switched them from one kind of host plant to another. I want to try raising them on wafer ash some year. Right now my couple of trees are in flower pots and are only a few inches high, so I think it will be quite some time before I can feed them wafer ash leaves. I even thought about moving them to a more open location instead of keeping them in small storage containers. If I had potted plants of rue, I could sit them in my butterfly cage and see if that makes a difference. Rue has a pungent odor, and so I was thinking maybe they can't stand that in a pretty tight space. I figure it's worth a try to raise them in a more open space. So I didn't know if you were going to try something different with your Zebras. I certainly hope that they do well this year for you.
Cathy

I'd like to try raising ZSTs again. If I get the chance, I'll first try raising them in the usual open cage, then if that doesn't work, I'll go back to the sealed containers, although I still can't see how that works - it seems very abnormal.

I live pretty close to some big creeks, and real close to a stream or small creek. I have 6 pawpaws, but two of them are real small, having just been planted last year. I saw one of the few ZSTs I've ever seen nectaring on some flowers on a creek bank near here.

Sherry

So when I found GST eggs here, I put them in that type of container with some rue and they'd always be crawling off of the cuttings. I don't know why Monarchs would do well in the containers and not the GSTs other than maybe the smell of the rue gets too strong in there. I think I just may try raising them on rue again, but I'll put them in my big butterfly cage that I made for the Monarchs.

I agree with you, it seems abnormal that the ZSTs would do well in the sealed containers and not the open cage. I hope you get a bunch of ZST eggs/cats to work with and find out a good way to raise them.

I guess you're lucky to have those creeks near you then if they help to attract the ZSTs, which I think that they do (not that I'm any expert, of course...just a hunch). Shucks, I don't know why I was thinking that you only had 1 or 2 paw paws. That's great that you have 6. I would like to have 6 or so here in our backyard. I figure the more the better to attract the Zebras. That's nice that you saw one nectaring at the creek. I think they like to hang out near water. I'm not sure exactly why unless it's for the puddling.

Cathy

That's very interesting about your species of paw paw growing higher up than our A. triloba up here (if there actually are any up here anywhere). I imagine that there would be some trees somewhere in the county. There's actually an island in the river between our county and the next one that is/was called Paw Paw Island. Being that it's accessible only by boat, that thankfully probably saved whatever paw paw trees are on that island from destruction by man. I would just love to find it someday, but we don't have a boat. Many years ago (like early 1900's) it was apparently a big thing for people to picnic on the island. I bet they got to see some Zebra Swallowtails, only at the time I guess they wouldn't have known that and just enjoyed them for being just a butterfly. Can you tell I love to read and reminisce and wonder what it would have been like to live back in those days? :)

Did you throw a birthday party for that 1-yr old ZST? :) Gosh, it doesn't seem like it's been a whole year already, but yep!

Cathy