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Refrigerating chrysalids?
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Posted by shannon74 (My Page) on Mon, Oct 12, 09 at 22:09
| So as I have mentioned in a couple of previous posts, I have some GST chrysalids that may be overwintering. The thing I am concerned about is that here in the Dallas area we can get pretty cold during the fall/winter but then there will be a smattering of very warm days, like in the 80s - it is totally unpredictable. I am worried that my guys will think it is time to eclose, then when they get out it will quickly turn cold again not to mention there will not be anything in bloom for them to eat! I have read that some people refrigerate their chrysalids to prevent them from happening. Is this a good idea...or a bad one? :-) I know there are probably those who keep them inside and hand-feed them if this happens, but it seems sad that they will then never really get to fulfill their real purpose. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Shannon |
Follow-Up Postings:
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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Shannon, Thanks for posting this question...I have the same concerns because I am about 15 miles west of Fort Worth & have BST, GST, & PVST crysalids still.
I will be interested in following this thread. I put mine in my garage last year...which was my first year to raise BFs. I had 10 BST crysalids overwinter & I put them on my back porch in March. I never thought about putting them in the refrigerator! My husband already has a problem with me having mealworms in my extra frig! "Why do you keep bugs in our refrigerator???"ROFL It is for the Bluebirds! He would kill me if I add BF crysalids to the frig!
How would you keep the crysalids from getting damaged? |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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| Hi bird nut - It is good to know of someone in the area! - I had one GST eclose last week right before the big storm Thursday night and unfortunately he got out of the pop up hamper accidentally and flew off right before dark that night, I hope he made it through. Now I have another turning black and will probably eclose tomorrow when it is warm. I have not seen any flying around recently. anyway, as for the fridge I had thought about putting them in a large tupperware contnr on top of some paper towels lying side by side and then placing them in the back of the crisper drawer. I REALLY hope to get some thoughts from the experts on this site as to whether this is OK to do all winter. :-) |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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| Shannon, I was really hoping you would get a response on your thread so I could learn, too! I think I will contact the owner of a butterfly farm in Florida that raises them & see what she says...I'll let you know if she responds! |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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| I have 3 BSTs that pupated just a few days ago. Highs up here are only in the 50s now and a little further north there is snow flying. I put these three (they formed their chrysalises on sticks) outside in a large metal locker. They should overwinter and emerge next spring. Sometimes, instead of the fridge, you can put them in a cool, dark spot in the basement, if you have one. |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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| Of course you can refrigerate them. The trick is humidity. Too much can lead to mold, too little and they dry out. You can try the veggie drawer as this seems to be the best. After all, veggies have the same issue with needing humidty (too much and you have a moldy veggie, too litte a dried out one). I once saw a photo essay of a Giant pupa in Michigan. They were establishing whether they survived the cold. It did, not well, as it had shriveled wings, but it survived the freezings. I know that lots of people keep adults and larva over winter this way too. Good luck,
Elisabeth |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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| I have overwintered moth cocoons in the fridge in the same manner Elisabeth mentions. I use a plastic Glad container with papertowels to cushion them. I took them out once a month to give them a cool water bath, dried them off a bit, and put them back in. I put another container of water in a Glad container in the crisper with the container of moths so it would be the same temp as the cocoons. Just dip and rinse and dry. If your chrysalises are on a stick, just trim it to fit in your container and when you bring them out in spring fasten/tape the shorter stick to a longer one. Susan |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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| Thanks so much everyone for your suggestions! I am so nervous to try the fridge technique as I am worried about getting the humidity just right. On the other hand I don't want a butterfly to emerge during a short warm spell when it will not even be able to make it for long if released. This would not be so much of an issue if I lived somewhere that got cold during the winter and just stayed that way, but here in Texas it is so unpredictable. I guess I will try the fridge. ams2009...if you are still following this post,here is another link with some overwintering info: http://www.raisingbutterflies.org/overwintering-techniques/ Thanks again!
Shannon |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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| One more question - if I use a Glad container do I use the cover? The website I posted earlier recommended a mesh cover, so I was not sure what you had done Susan. Thanks! |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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| Shannon, I emailed Edith that owns Shady Oak Butterfly Farm in Florida & here is what she replied... "IF they are truly in diapause, they can be refrigerated in a sealed plastic container for months. BUT if they are taken out and put in the light in a warm room, they can come out of diapause and emerge. They have trouble climbing up and pumping their wings in a cold refrigerator if they do emerge. Normally, they’ll stay in diapause until the weather tells them that it is truly spring. Of course, if a freeze comes afterward, they’re in trouble. They emerge in response to day and night length. When the days get longer and warmer, they will emerge. If they are kept in a dark cool spot until spring, they shouldn’t emerge until spring if they are in true diapause. Because they may take weeks to emerge when they are not in diapause, I’m always nervous about refrigerating them, just in case. But if they are in true diapause and are left in darkness in a cool refrigerator, they’ll be fine until spring. If I’m not positive that they are in diapause, I don’t keep them in more than a couple of weeks. They will emerge if I refrigerate them and take them out again. The key is not being sure if they are in diapause. Edith" Hope this helps, Shannon...I think I will keep mine in the garage in their box for the winter...usually it stays cool even if it gets warmer during the day. I had 6 BST crysalids last year over-winter & one that didn't come out until July. Most eclosed in April. I lost a few PVST crysalids recently that I had been keeping inside the house & put them out on the porch while it was warm one afternoon...I think they got too hot & died without eclosing. Their crysalids were torn but they weren't alive inside. I won't do that again. I had the top on the container & it must have gotten too hot when the sun came onto my porch in the late afternoon...usually, if I have them there I take the lid off. I won't do that again!
I have at least 20 PVST cats right now & just found 2 tiny BST cats on my fennel. I hope they all pupate & wait until spring to eclose! I brought in about 15 monarch cats that have all pupated except for the last 2 that are just now "J'ing". Hopefully, they will all eclose in a few weeks & head south. I had raised about a dozen last year at this time & they all eclosed before it got too cold.
What are you raising right now? |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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| Definitely use a lid for the container. I guess I didn't worry about them emerging in the fridge - never crossed my mind actually - probably a good thing. I have done both the fridge and the outdoor method for moth cocoons and got my info on Bill Oehlke's website. As Edith mentions, they won't emerge until conditions are right e.g length of daytime hours, temps. I don't think the temps in Dallas will remain consistently warm long enough for them to eclose at inappropriate time. Good luck! Susan |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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For what it's worth, I'm keeping my chrysalids outside on the porch all winter long this year, with sheets covering the cages at night - in the daytime, I just move the sheet back on one side to let in some light, and so I can check on them. We have those warm spells in the winter, too, so I'll keep the cages covered all day at those times, to keep the light down.
Many, if not most, of the biological happenings of critters is determined more by light and length of day than by temperature, at least that's what I've read. Birds reportedly migrate based on the length of day - when days grow shorter, they move south, when days grow longer, they move north.
I guess it's silly, but there's something creepy about putting them in the fridge, and, like Edith points out, they need to be in true diapause, not just be taking longer than normal to emerge from their chrsyalis - there is a difference.
I'll report back as to how the "porch all winter" method works - it seems more natural to me.
Sherry |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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| Hi everyone - WOW, have I mentioned that I LOVE this forum. This is all such helpful information. Edith, I am definitely not going to do the fridge method after reading your post. I think, like Sherry said, it seems unnatural, and although we are helping nature out a bit by hand rearing the cats, I like the idea of keeping things as close to the natural way as possible. Plus there is a lot of room for error with the fridge. So I am going to go with the covered patio method and I guess cover any chrysalids if we get a freeze. That is interesting about your monarch cats, Edith, I have seen several monarchs around lately - you should have SEEN the butterflies at the Dallas arboretum this weekend it was like heaven! :-) It was my first time to see PVST in person and I was in awe. I had wondered whether the monarchs I have seen lately are still heading south or at this point do some just stick around where they are. I have two GST chrysalids and about 30 cats in various stages. I think it will be mid November before they are all pupated, fingers crossed that they make it that far. Needless to say my porch may be crowded this winter! :-) Thanks again everyone, I too will keep you all updated on how my porch wintering goes. Shannon |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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| just wanted to say i just realized that your name is not edith, birdnut - sorry!! :-) |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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| One thing about the porch method though, you have to protect against ants and dryness. I have had several eaten by ants. Also, in the wild, they get rain and snow. I have had many come out in the garage but some do get dehydrated, and if the garage is warmer, as in an attatched garage, they can come out a little earlier. Daylight does affect diaupase but remember these guys are ectothermic (getting their heat from an outside source). Warmer temperatures will speed up their metabolism and activity. This does, IMO, cause my garage chrysalises to emerge earlier. Isn't Edith great! I took a course from her and correspond occasionaly. I can't believe she has the time to talk to any of us. She has a great website and I encourage anyone to spend time looking at it. It has a wealth of info. Cheers,
Elisabeth |
Here is a link that might be useful: Edith's website
an oops
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| P.S. Thinking about it, I did have a bad oops with the refridgerator once. As Edith mentions if they are not in diaupase, this can be a problem. However, I think (and this is where I get in trouble :)), it tends to be when they are about to emerge. I put some in the fridge that were about to eclose to slow them down. They were in my garage and some of their siblings had started to come out early. It was still really cold and rainy here in Ohio, with little to no food sources out yet. That was a mistake and they didn't make it :(. So, my advice would be if they just pupated, it's fine. Just check them once in a while. If they look like they are developing, take them out. Mind you I am in the north and my weather and spring have different issues than in the south. Good luck,
Elisabeth |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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| I think a lot of what we do is trial and error; one person's method may not work for another and we just act on our best intentions after grappling with the information we gather from the efforts of our predessors and hope for success. Which makes us all scientists in a sense. We've all used a certain strategy only to have it fail occasionally but we keep forging ahead in a quest for the perfect one. I think, after evaluating what has worked for others, we just have to feel as comfortable as possible with our decision and follow through. ....and ARGGG I hate failing but darn it, it just happens to be a fact of life. Am I a success with everything I have tried and done? Heck no! As a wise woman once said to me (actually many wise women, and yes, a few wise men) it is progress we make and not perfection. I have learned so much on this forum and hopefully I am not getting too smart for my britches and will continue to soak up all the knowledge I find here LOL! |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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I'm beginning to wonder if I'm doing right keeping mine on the porch. Ants aren't a problem - the cages are on high tables, and my porch is 3' off the ground, never seen an ant there - but it's warmed up today, and it's cooler in my unheated guest bedroom in the house than it is on the porch right now. The house is slower to change temps than the porch - the temps in the guest room are steadier, without the ups and downs outside.
Still, quite a few butterflies emerged too early last year, in the guest room, so I guess I'll leave them where they are. I don't think humidity is a factor here.
Keeping chrysalides in a spot where they emerge when their host plants are starting to make new growth is a problem!
Sherry |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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| "Keeping chrysalides in a spot where they emerge when their host plants are starting to make new growth is a problem!" LOL! I hear that! Thanks for your kind words Susan. It is trial and error! And when you are caring for 30 or more (maybe hundreds for some of you)cats and pupae, it can be overwhelming. I just hope I don't lose as many Leps as I do plants, :)! Cheers,
Elisabeth |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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Shannon, glad Edith's info helped! I love all the info she has to share on her website!
I am planning to keep mine in my garage..it's darker & more consistant temps than my porch. I lost some PVST crysalids by putting one of my boxes out on my table on my back porch...I get afternoon sun & I think they got too hot! I currently have a bunch of cats still eating & hopefully will be overwintering here as crysalids. Most all of my 14 monarchs have eclosed with only 3 left. I have 2 BST cats still eating & I have Bordered Patch cats & crysalids that I found on my wildflowers, Golden Crownbeard. I brought about a dozen in at first & then brought in more. I have a lot of Fire ants right now & I think they kill the cats. This is a first for me & as far as my BF books say, they overwinter as larvae so they might eclose before winter hits.
Shannon, Email me...I was going to email you but you don't have an email attached to your page. I have a couple of A.fimbriata(White Veined Pipevine) plants that I can share with you & some seeds so you can start attracting PVSTs to your yard next year. I am also planning a trip to the Dallas Arboretum next Sat. Nov 6 for their Autumn plant sale & to go see the new BF exhibit, too. I go to Dallas at least once a week with my work(I'm an Interior Designer) & could meet you another time if you are interested. |
RE: Refrigerating chrysalids?
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| Easy solution: Send 'em to South Florida!!! Really, just wanted to wish you luck with the winter adventure. Glad I don't have to worry about it. |
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