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_sbgibbons_

Chicken Grit substitution?

_sbgibbons_
9 years ago

Good morning!
I've looked/called everywhere around here and nobody has insoluble granite or quartz. It's always oyster shells or something of that sort. I've bought chicken grit from Amazon on the past, but the price went up to $17 for a 5lb (tiny) bag and I need at least 10lbs. I may just break down and buy it, but I wanted to check and see if there was a substitution that was just as good as chicken grit. Right now my mix contains lava rock, turface, chicken grit, and a few plants and a bit of pumice mixed in as well. Or If anyone knows where I can buy chicken grit in the Lemoore/Hanford/Fresno area or even a cheaper website. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Sorry if my post is all over the place. I'm trying to do 10 things at once! Haha Y'all have a great day! - Sam

Comments (30)

  • bouldergrower
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You can buy a 50 lb bag of gravel at Home Depot for $4.50. I can't believe the size of the grit would make that much difference.

  • nil13
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would just get some 3/8" pea gravel or 1/4" crushed granite from a rock yard.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Stoneys in Lemoore

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pea gravel tends to be on the large side, although it certainly is cheap. I would still aim for the 1/4 inch size, but most inert rocks / gravel will work. I'm a quartzite user, myself.

    Josh

  • dhd47
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I get mine at a southern states hardware store. You will fine it really cheap at any garden or hardware store near farming areas.

    DhD

  • _sbgibbons_
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you for all of the advice! :)

    I've been to Stoney's in the past, but it was for another reason. I'll definitely go up there tomorrow and see if they have anything quartz that small, hopefully they do! I found some on eBay as well.. It's 50lbs for $25 which is an amazing deal, but it doesn't say how much shipping is. I'm sure it's a ton!

    I didn't know any type of rock would do. I do want to keep it pretty small though and that's going to be the biggest problem. Hmmm.. What to do..

    This post was edited by Sbgibbons on Sat, Sep 13, 14 at 0:36

  • penfold2
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've used perlite in place of granite. It holds a bit more water, so you may need to adjust the ratio of ingredients slightly. It's also much lighter, which may or may not be a problem for you. But otherwise, it works great.

    {{gwi:35868}}

    {{gwi:35869}}

    {{gwi:637411}}

    -Chris

  • _sbgibbons_
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was thinking about perlite, but since turface and lava rock are both water retentive, would adding another substance that holds water make the mix hold too much water? Or is that pretty much impossible?

  • jpaz
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I offer the following for just general information. I don't wish to suggest this is something you should adopt -- it is just the way I prepare and use inorganic substrate. I personally think it is important to remove dust and use material consisting of a range of particle sizes -- mine range from -1/8" to approx. 3/8" with most being from approx. 3/16" to 1/4".

    I am presently using an inorganic medium that consists of just one component -- what I call "freshly mined and raw" pumice - unscreened with the fines present. I use pumice because it is readily available to me free, is of light weight and I have always had great success using it in my growing media. Similar inorganic products such as "Kitty Litter" or other expanded clay material - sometimes mixed with sharp grit, gravel or decomposed granite - will work just as well.

    {{gwi:637412}}

    Freshly mined raw pumice as described above

    I don't screen out the small granular pumice fines - but I do wash out the dust using a fine sieve in conjunction with a "power spray head" garden hose as dust tends to migrate to the bottom of containers where it can form a drainage impeding "sludge".

    Washing out dust using a "power spray head" garden hose and fine sieve

    {{gwi:637413}}

    Washing continues until the water runs from the sieve reasonably clear

    {{gwi:637415}}

    The pumice described above after washing it to remove dust

    {{gwi:637417}}

    The pumice described above after sun-drying

    {{gwi:637419}}

    Discocactus grown in pumice described above

    This post was edited by jpaz on Mon, Sep 15, 14 at 2:45

  • penfold2
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I was thinking about perlite, but since turface and lava rock are both water retentive, would adding another substance that holds water make the mix hold too much water? Or is that pretty much impossible?"

    Perlite, pumice, and lava rock all have pretty similar water retentions in my experience. And while they do hold more water than granite, they still seem to be on the low end of the spectrum when compared to Turface. You could use less Turface in your mix to compensate, but my mix above still worked fine with a 1:1 substitution. Also, there's no reason you have to use 3 ingredients. As jpaz showed above, some people do fine with just a single ingredient. Using at least 2 ingredients of differing water retentions does give you more ability to adjust overall water retention, though.

    -Chris

  • jpaz
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Chris wrote:

    ".......... As jpaz showed above, some people do fine with just a single ingredient"

    There is danger of "Thread drift" here so I don't want to post a lot of extraneous material -- but about twenty five years ago I mixed the Pumice prepared as I outlined above (80%) with aged and weathered pine bark (20%) and used that as my basic soil mix for several years. Along the way I started using the pumice alone hydroponically (drain to waste) -- I don't want to use this post to describe that -- for those interested please go here

  • jpaz
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Back to the subject at hand ......... I was recently in a local feed store that had several types of bagged grit for sale -- their chicken grit contained crushed oyster shells, but their pigeon grit didn't seem to have any and looked pretty good. The sales clerk confirmed the absence of oyster shells so I bought a ten pound bag just to play around with. When I got home I noticed a chemical odor when I opened the bag -- come to find out, this pigeon grit had indeed been chemically treated to combat some deficiencies (calcium, etc.?) pigeons are reputedly prone too. I didn't know anything about any of that so I returned the grit to the store.

    This post was edited by jpaz on Sat, Sep 13, 14 at 16:45

  • _sbgibbons_
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I looked at chicken grit, chick grit, and pigeon grit today at a feed store and they were all either shells, or like jpaz said- had some sort of additives..

    I am still new to the gritty mix game and I usually play around with it. I don't have it down to a science. Meaning, I treat it just like I do my recipes- I don't really measure anything. I just eye it. A scoop of this, a scoop of that until it looks right to me. Haha. I do add a little more turface than what is in Al's mix because it gets very hot here during the summer and my plants tend to wrinkle from under watering. I still have this issue with a couple of my plants even after I upped the turface.

    I have a bag of pumice, so if a buy anything new I'll try growing it in that to see how it does. :) Buuuuttt, I still have about 40 pounds of turface and lava rock to use. That's why I was wondering about something else I could add to those two items because I think those two alone would hold too much water. Do y'all think any type of rock would do as long as it was small enough? I don't have to have it suuuper small, but I would like it to be about pea sized or smaller.
    Sorry I don't sift to know particle size.

    I'm going to go to petsmart tomorrow to look and see what kind of aquarium or reptile rocks they have. It's a long shot! I'm sorry I probably sound like a broken record. I'm half asleep. Haha. Thanks again for all of the help!

  • dhd47
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've gone to the local Southern States store they have a lot of customers that have farms so they have all those good things you will not find from Home Depot type store.
    I got a bag of grit that was something like 50 lbs for $6. I thought it was such a better deal then the small bag that I had to get it no matter how long it would last. Now I've used up about 1/3 of it with my first mix.

    Dave

  • dhd47
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh yeah, how do you get free pumice. That's nice because what I find it isn't cheap.
    DhD

  • jpaz
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    DhD wrote:

    "Oh yeah, how do you get free pumice .........."

    Be a "blood brother" to a Cactus Nurseryman for about forty years.

  • jpaz
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sbgibbons wrote:

    ".......... I am still new to the gritty mix game and I usually play around with it. I don't have it down to a science. Meaning, I treat it just like I do my recipes- I don't really measure anything. I just eye it. A scoop of this, a scoop of that until it looks right to me .........."

    I wouldn't get overly concerned about precise soil (or rather soilless) mix component porportions for general cactus and succulent container cultivation. The overriding criteria remain superior drainage and root aeration. Gritty mix is a catch phrase in vogue these days but the concept has been known and practiced by C&S enthusiasts and experienced growers for many years.

    Dr. Franz Buxbaum, in his book CACTUS CULTURE BASED ON BIOLOGY (translated by Vera Higgins), Blandford Press, 1958, was the pioneer in using coarse inorganic growing media to insure superior drainage and root aeration -- acidifying water and soil by testing and modifying the pH -- using complete, balanced fertilizers incorporating micronutrients -- and using non-porous pots in order to maintain healthy root systems.

    When I first started growing cacti (summer of 1939 in northern England) the standard C&S container potting mix almost universally employed by hobbyists and nursery men was one one third broken (or crumbled) bricks or coarse builder's sand (for good drainage), one third "garden loam" and one third leaf mold (ubiquitous from a variety of sources) -- both of the latter for providing organic nutrition. In general, most C&S grew pretty well in those mixes - I used them from 1939 until about 1951 (when I was cultivating cacti in Texas). Somewhere about that time I think there was a general shift toward using peat moss as the fibrous/nutritional component for C&S container grown plants (maybe due to the difficulty in obtaining leaf mold plus the uneveness of its quality?) and the use of coarse gravels and grits (I used DG -- decomposed granite) for good drainage. Sometime in the early 1960s (when I was growing cacti in southern California) Pumice and perlite (and other similar products) came into vogue as suitable inorganic components for insuring optimum drainage and root aeration. I started using pumice when it became very popular in the C&S community about 1964 and my cacti in particular grew much more robustly -- I have used pumice as the inorganic component of my growing media ever since. I don't know when expanded clay products such as Turface and Kitty Litter (sometimes mixed with sharp grit, gravel or decomposed granite) came into vogue for use in soilless mixes -- and I have no experiences using them -- but it seems to me they will work just as well as pumice and other natural volcanic material which is often hard to find and quite pricey. BTW, I now mostly use straight pumice because it is readily available to me free, is of light weight and I have always had great success using it in my growing media. It is also compatible with the plants I grow (Brazilians, whose habitat climate is one of very hot, wet summers and warm very dry winters) and the way I grow them. Those are very important considerations for any one concocting their own growing media.

    The bottom line is, there is no one soilless potting soil formula that meets the needs of all growers of cactus and succulents in containers, but as you experiment in developing your own mixes keep the foregoing fundamentals constantly in mind.

    Here is one of my favorite organic mixes that I have used from time to time, and still use for specimen cacti that I grow in containers outdoors:
    {{gwi:637421}}
    70% pumice, 20% aged & weathered pine bark, 10% sifted, decomposed granite

    Here is a twenty year old (or so) Melocactus salvadorensis growing in that mix in my front garden patch (10" round plastic container):
    {{gwi:637423}}

    This post was edited by jpaz on Mon, Sep 15, 14 at 2:41

  • _sbgibbons_
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Al- that's the brand that I've been buying off of Amazon, but they've now raised the price to $17 for 5 lbs. And unfortunately I've called or been to every feed store within an hour of my house with no luck which is so odd to me because everywhere you look out here is a farm. But ordered it off of Amazon yesterday, despite the price.

    Jpaz-wow, you have so many years of experience under your belt. You started growing cacti in 1939?! That's just amazing! You are definitely an expert gardener. I respect you so much. Thank you so much for taking the time to give me thorough explanations on growing materials and things that you have experimented with. This is what my mix looks like.{{gwi:637424}} it is lava rock, turface, chicken grit, and a little bit of pumice. I don't know if it is good or not. I have had a few problems with a couple plants since repotting into the gritty mix and I'm not sure why, but I figure I'm still in the beginning stages and I'll figure it out soon. But the majority of my plants are thriving, so that's good. I am going to try growing in straight pumice too. I am still going to be on the lookout for another small rock that doesn't hold any water because I'm not going to be able to pay that much for chicken grit all the time. But thank you sooo much for all of the help and advice you've given me. :)

    That goes to everyone on this thread as well!! - Sam :)

  • jpaz
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Sam. You wrote:

    ".......... Thank you so much for taking the time to give me thorough explanations on growing materials and things that you have experimented with .......... I am going to try growing in straight pumice too .........."

    You are most welcome, Sam. Remember that your selection of growing media should be based on the species of plants you grow, how you grow them and where you grow them (always bearing in mind the necessity of good drainage and root aeration). Straight pumice works ideally for me because I mainly grow Brazilian cacti hydroponically (drain to waste methodology) here in southern Arizona. The pumice absorbs and releases the nutrient solution in just the right amount and dries out satisfactorily in the right time schedule. The substrate is exceptionally well aerated and thus my plants grow robustly with good form and strong spination and produce an abundance of flowers and fruit. Strait pumice may not produce the same results for you.

    BTW, your present medium mix looks pretty good.

    Here are pics of some cacti I have grown using the above methodology:
    {{gwi:626993}}{{gwi:477561}}
    top: Coleocephalocereus aureus
    bottom: Discocactus horstii

    {{gwi:626994}}
    {{gwi:626996}}
    top: Micranthocereus streckeri
    bottom: Arrojadoa dinae

    {{gwi:626998}}
    {{gwi:472288}}
    top: Uebelmannia pectinifera
    bottom: Frailea castanea

    {{gwi:627000}}
    {{gwi:627002}}
    top: Micranthocereus polyanthus
    bottom: Micranthocereus densiflorus

    {{gwi:476568}}
    {{gwi:627005}}
    top: Uebelmannia buiningii
    bottom: Micranthocereus estevesii


    {{gwi:627007}}
    {{gwi:627009}}
    top: Coleocephalocereus aureus
    bottom: Micranthocereus densiflorus

    {{gwi:627011}}
    {{gwi:627012}}
    top: Melocactus azureus
    bottom: Arrojadoa rhodantha

  • nil13
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like to keep things simple. If straight lava rock doesn't hold enough water then just add one other material to increase water retention like DE or Turface. I don't see why you would have to take lava rock and add turface to increase water retention and then add some grit to decrease the water retention. Just add less turface to the lava rock.

  • tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Is there a Tractor Supply Store nearby?

    tj

    Here is a link that might be useful: Grit and bear it

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sbgibbons, my mix looks almost exactly like yours :-)
    Be sure to fertilize....and be sure to water consistently. That ought to straighten out any problems.

    Josh

  • _sbgibbons_
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Tj- thank you! Thank you! thank you! I'll be going out there tomorrow! I called them and they have 25lb bags for $7.99! What a steal! It kinda sucks that I already bought a 5lb off of Amazon for $17 though. Oh well, lesson learned! How did you find that place? I Googled for chicken grit in my area and called all the feed stores. Anyway, you are awesome, so thank you again!!

    Jpaz- your cacti are beautiful. I don't really stick to one type of cacti or succulent. I just buy what I find attractive or what I'm interested in (which is everything really). I'm still a newbie, so I'm sure as I learn more, my taste will become more refined. Here is a couple pictures of the majority of my plants. A have about 8 or so that are in my garage that are waiting to be repotted, so those aren't pictured. I like to buy my plants as babies so I can watch them grow. Although, I think next spring I may but some bigger ones.
    {{gwi:637429}}
    {{gwi:637430}}
    They aren't anything like yours, obviously cause I'm not am expert and I'm just getting started, but I hope one day I'll have the knowledge and experience like you do. The weather here in Lemoore, Ca. Is very hot during the summer and pretty cold cold during the winter (to me anyway being that I'm from South Mississippi), so I am going to give the pumice a try. It can't hurt. Thanks for all of your help. :)

    Josh- Yeah, I do need to get on a better watering schedule. Right now I water about every 4 days or so and I am thinking I need to water more than that when it is as hot as it is here. How often do you water?

    Nil- The way I see it is, turface has high water retention and lava rock is medium and chicken grit is very low. I like having all three because it gives it a better texture and it's really hard for me to bust up lava rock small enough to mix in with the turface perfectly. I feel like the chicken grit balances the turface better than the lava rock because the size... If that makes any sense.

    This post was edited by Sbgibbons on Wed, Sep 17, 14 at 23:07

  • tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You are very welcome. WE all call it chicken grit, manufactures don't like the limiting implications of that, so they call it Poultry Grit. I didn't limit my search to a geographic area either. I just looked for national chains in the results.

    tj

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Watering really depends upon the weather, the plant, and the pot. Some of my plants are watered every two days, other plants watered every 3 - 5 days during the Summer.

    Josh

  • nil13
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bust up lava rock? What size are you using? I would just use the 1/4" stuff. I use turface with 3/8" pea gravel without any mxing trouble.

  • _sbgibbons_
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nil- I have to buy the stuff that is used for landscaping. I'm not sure of the measurement, but it's rather big- about an inch or so? I've chatted with a lot of people that use lava rock in their mixes and most of them have to do the same thing I do, which is buy the the bigger stuff and bust it up with a sledgehammer until it's small enough to use in the mix. I've only found one place around here that has it and I buy the smallest size they have. But busting it up isn't hard and I even enjoy doing it most of the time. :)

    Tj- Ohh okay, that makes sense. Well, thank you again. You saved me a lot of money and time. I've never been out that way, so keep your fingers crossed that I don't get lost. Haha

    Josh- I wish I knew the water requirements for each plant. I need to sit down one day and do research on them. The one I'm having the most problems with is my sedum treleasei. It was perfectly healthy when it was in soil and when I switched over to gritty mix, it began to yellow and lost close to 10 leaves.
    Here is it before:
    {{gwi:637431}}

    And after : {{gwi:637432}}
    I honestly don't know where I went wrong with this little guy.

  • greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Fine roots?
    How many roots were lost when you rinsed all the old potting mix off?

    Josh

  • _sbgibbons_
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, most of them have fine roots except for the two biggest ones and they don't have ton of big roots, just a couple. And they didn't lose very many roots, if any. I'm not like others when they say they aren't gentle with their plants. I like to take my time with them and gently remove the dirt when doing a root wash. I have given it some consideration that maybe it is the fact that I take time with my root washes and it allows the plant to take in too much water, but this wouldn't make sense as to why only a couple plants aren't doing well. Thanks for your help Josh. :)

  • imran ismail
    3 years ago

    Walmart