In the diverse world of the Internet, why practice ageism?

i was prepared to give the name of a local guy who is much respected in my area for his knowlege and extensive collection of camellias but he is disqualified by age-restrictions. care to tell us why you are limiting your candidates that way?

I don't practice ageism, but advertisers do. They want to see a younger demographic. FYI, I'm too old myself to be in a story. What I actually am looking for is a personality driven story that shows how older camellia fanatics are passing on their enthusiasm to a younger crowd. Most plant societies have a high percentage of retired folks. That's fine, it's a good way to spend your time and meet new friends, but if younger people don't come on board, how long will the society continue?

when i was briefly a member of the auburn-opelika men's camellia club a few years ago, there were some other members who looked to be younger than 50. you might try contacting the club president, dr. milton alexander, at alexmdrmj@bellsouth.net.

i haven't seen forrest post here in a while. he was/is president of the alabama camellia society (i think) and could possibly steer you in the right direction.

I wonder how many good folks might be tempted to respond and refer people to someone with a handle of 'dirtyoldman' LOL!

Good point, Dave. It's exactly what I was thinking.
I definately wouldn't respond to someone with that handle. Even if I wanted to be in a magazine!

Well, what else do you call an old guy who likes to dig in the dirt? I assure you I'm harmeless. Glad my screen name isn't "Perv." Anyway, I've been working on this and a related story and plan to go see some folks down in the Charleston area who know a lot about camellias. Anybody care to comment on whether Middleton Place was the first garden in the South to have a camellia?

I am 48 today, working in America's oldest garden, and prior to coming here I was the horticulturist for The American Camellia Society. I am also the Horticulturist for "The Great Gardens of America Preservation Alliance" a group traveling the globe now to preserve ancient azaleas and camellias. Contact me at Magnolia Gardens in Charleston

Hi, romantic camelliaman, your group is travelling the globe for preserving ancient camellias? You can enter cuttings in US? And they can go out, too? That's new for me.
Ancient camellias are my passion, too. ;)

My research says that the first camellia planted outside was planted in Col. Lucas' yard in downtown Charleston. I can cross referance this with several sources. In 1830 the Charleston Horticulture Society posted the measurements of his camellia because it was the largest in The U.S. It is listed as a single red. I found an article in the 1932 yearbook of The Azalea Camellia society of America ( when they were 1 society ) that said Col. Lucas' camellia was the first outside. I then "Googled" Col. Lucas Camellia and found numerous sources backing the claim up.
Florence Crowder, one of our Alliance members just imported cuttings from 100 ancient camellias, 20 of which have never been in the states before,

These 11 cuttings from ancient camellias, are they identified? I would be very interested to see the the list ...

They are all named. We will release the names when the plants are 1 year old. The cuttings, unfortunatly, got stuck in customs for 3 weeks. Almost all rooted, but we are not sure if there will be any adverse effects.We have one of the largest collections of ancient camellia varieties in the U.S. here at Magnolia Gardens. Go to greatamericangardensalliance.org and you can see a list of camellias here at Magnolia. Soon we will have a list of all Alliance members and their cultivars. We have 300 ancient varieties not listed that will go into the garden this fall.

A very interesting report! So, I'll have three questions. 1) No list I found but saw the camellia rage! ;) and 2) Why are you thinking that cuttings which got stuck in customs for three weeks, and even that they all rooted can show adverse effects? Are you thinking about virus?
3)Can you explain what they mean with " an actual clone carrying the identical DNA-a living antique! " - do they speak only about cuttings, like our normal cuttings?

If you go to the great garden website and click on Magnolia's name, then click on ancient camellias, you will get our list. The problem is that old cuttings will root, but they sometimes never have enough vigor to be a healthy plant. When any plant, including camellias are hybridized for 1 purpose, such as larger blooms, the other parts suffer. The blooms get bigger and bigger, and the over all plant gets weaker. If the older varieties are lost, as well as their DNA, We cannot cross back in our hybridization programs. Also, for identification purposes, it is important to have the history of the plant, so you know you actually have that variety.

Let me remind you that there is a difference between the meaning of the word _ancient_ and the meaning of the world _old_. There are definitely old camellias at Middleton Place and Magnolia gardens, but there are no ancient camellias at either garden. Examples of ancient plants would redwoods and bristlecone pines in excess of a couple of thousand-years-old in the Far West, if there are any that remain.

As far as the earliest camellias cultivated outdoors in North America are concerned, they are at Middleton Place Gardens at Charleston and were gifts from the French botanist Andre Michaux to the Middleton Family ca. 1786. This information is documented in James R. Cothran's _Gardens and Historic Plants of the Antebellum South_ (Columbia: Univ. of South Carolina Press, 2003), pp. 236-237. One of the surviving Michaux camellias is 'Reine des Fleurs'--an old, but not ancient plant.

Through _The American Camellia Yearbook_, one learns that the Reverend John Grimke Drayton began planting camellias at Magnolia Gardens around 1840. I will provide a citation to confirm this. The camellias at Middleton Place Gardens definitely pre-date those at Magnolia Gardens. Old, yes; ancient, no.

We use the term "ancient" in the camellia industry to describe a variety named pre-1900. Your facts about Reine des Fleurs are in Error. Camellias are registered when the are named. The International Camellia Register clearly states Reine des Fleurs' is a child of Donckelaer. Reine des Fleurs' was named in 1845. Donckelaer, its mother, was named in 1843. I have done research and about half of the sources say Michaux planted a japonica at Middleton, another half say it was a sasanqua and a few say it was a tea plant. I get real nervous when there is confusion about species. This usually means non-botanical or non-horticultural people are writing the history. We do not make mistakes on species. Anyway, you are correct about the date of camellias at Magnolia. But Michaux could not have planted Reine des Fleurs' at Middleton. His son Henry Michaux would be more likely. The dates just do not match.

As a camellia historian, I have researched for several years Middleton Gardens claim to have a camellia japonica named Reine de Fleurs that was brought to Middleton and planted by Andre Michaux. Research proves that this isn't true. Andre Michaux died in 1802 in Madagascar. Reine de Fleurs first appeared in nursery catalogs in 1845 so it was not possible for Andre Michaux to plant it, much less bring it to America. In fact there is no proveable documentation that Mr. Michaux brought any plant material to the U.S. although legend gives him credit of introducing many plants into the U.S. It is possible that Henri'Andre Michaux may have brought the Reine de Fleur with him to the U.S. as he lived until 1855 making the dates plausable. I have been to Middleton Place many times and studied their camellia collection in depth and have concluded from the cultivars planted there that no existing plants date any earlier than the mid 1800's. The same is true for Magnolia Gardens, their earliest camellias date from the mid 1800's. There is one sigificant difference however. Magnolia has an extensive collection of camellia japonicas added to its collection after the mid-1800's whose original nursery dates go as far back as 1725. In fact Magnolia has original invoices to document their purchases and has the largest collection of pre-1900 camellia japonicas in the United States.
As to the question whether or not camellias are ancient, it is widely documented that the Chinese were using camellia sinensis (tea plant) as early as 500 BC. I believe this qualifies the camellia as being ancient.

I am talking about Andre Michaux's gift of _Camellia japonica_ to the Middletons, not _Camellia sinensis_, _Camellia sasanqua_, or any other camellia species. What bothers me about this thread is that there is much being claimed as fact without the proof of authoritative, credible sources. Again, I refer you to James Cothran's _Gardens and Historic Plants of the Antebellum South_. The varietal name 'Riene des Fleurs' is cited there, along with Andre Michaux's name, not his son's name. You should consider speaking with Professor Cothran if you doubt the information he provides in this highly regarded book. And who is to say that Michaux's 'Reine des Fleurs' is not a totally different cultivar from the one bearing the same name, but a later date of introduction? The standardization of camellia names is, after all, a fairly recent phenomenon.

In all probability, the Mr. Lucas, to whom you referred, takes a back seat to the famed Louis LeConte, as far as the outdoor cultivation of _Camellia japonica_ is concerned. Mr. LeConte's Woodmanston Plantation and Botanic Garden in Liberty County, Georgia, flourished from ca. 1800 until his death in the late 1830's. LeConte grew camellias, including 'Alba Plena,' and many other exotic plants. His botanic garden was acclaimed by European horticulturists in Great Britain and on the Continent.
See James Stokes' "Notes on Georgia Camelliana," _The American Camellia Yearbook_, 1949, pp. 164-186, and "Restoration of the LeConte Botanical Garden," _The American Camellia Yearbook_, 1973, pp. 178-184. The unsigned 1973 article opens by stating: . . . Louis LeConte was one of the first to introduce the culture of _Camellia japonica_ to America. His son, Joseph LeConte, wrote in his _Autobiography_ published in 1903: "His special pride was four or five camellia trees--I say trees for even then (some years before the death of Louis LeConte in 1838) they were a foot in diameter and fifteen feet high. I have seen the largest of these, a double white with a thousand blossoms four or five inches in diameter, snow-white and double to the center. . . . "

Further research in _The American Camellia Yearbook_ indicates that _Camellia japonica_ was introduced into Gulf Coast gardens, particularly the early plantations of Louisiana and Alabama, very early in U. S. history.

Jim Cothran is a friend of mine. Even he does not question The International Camellia Register. Facts do not lie. All I can say about Col. Lucas camellia is that in "The Magazine of Horticulture and Botany and all useful Discoveries" 1839, Col lucas' camellia is stated to have a 2 ft. 11 1/2 inch circ. and a 1 ft. diameter. In all writings of The Charleston Horticulture Society in the 1830's, There is no mention of camellias at Middleton or Magnolia. This leads me to believe that neither had a very interesting collection. I know all the postings for The American Camellia Society. I was their horticulturist for 8 years. Once again, I have seen the camellia at Middleton. It is Reine de Fleur. The dates still do not match, as much as we may want them to.

I went back and researched the above listing. The camellia in Col. Lucas' yard in 1830 had a total circumferance of 49 ft. 8 inches and a height of 16 ft. 10 inches. With a 1 ft diameter, even if the plant had been transplanted with a 6 inch diameter, Which no one has claimed, all points to the fact it was atleast 30-40 years old-if one understands camellia growth culture. This leads me to believe the 1933 Annual of The Azalea Camellia Society of America is correct when H. G. Conner states The first Camellia was planted outside in America by Col. Lucas' in Charleston in 1804. Mr. LeConte is not mentioned, but others such as Floy, in 1816 as well as Marshal Wilder, Cheerwood and Dunlap are. No mention of Middleton here either.

Thank you, romantic camelliaman, now I found them. So many wonderful camellias like Anemonaeflora, Grape Soda ... so many! Do you assure new generations from them?

It is generally agreed that _Camellia japonica_ 'Kumasaka' is one of the earliest known cultivars of record, dating back to ca. 1695 in Japanese horticulture. We, likewise, acknowledge 'Alba Plena,' introduced to Western horticulture ca. 1792, as the first _Camellia japonica_ variety cultivated in Europe and North America. The "double white," or 'Alba Plena,' is one of the several japonicas Louis LeConte grew at Woodmanston Plantation as early as the eighteen tens.

The fact that tea (_Camellia sinensis_) has been drunk in China for a couple of thousand years has no real bearing on the discussion of the use of the word _ancient_ in reference to named _Camellia japonica_ cultivars. From where I sit, it seems inappropriate to use the word _ancient_ to describe camellia varieties that are better described as _historic_, _heirloom_, _antique_, or _vintage_ varieties. Ancient Egypt, Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece. You get the picture.

As for "the bragging rights" pertaining to the earliest landscape use of _Camellia japonica_ in North America, I'll continue to throw my support toward Andre Michaux's gift of four japonicas to Middleton Place Gardens in 1786. I've never met James Cothran but do respect his academic credentials and scholarship, and thus, recognize his _Gardens and Landscape Plants of the Antebellum South_ (Columbia: Univ. of South Carolina Press, 2003) as a carefully researched, authoritative source on this subject. The following paragraph is excerpted from a _New York Times_ article on Middleton Place Gardens:

It was Henry's good fortune that the French botanist, Andre Michaux, arrived (1785) while the garden was in his hands. They were close friends for 10 years. It was during his friendship with Michaux that Henry planted the first azaleas at Middleton. Michaux brought to Middleton mimosa, gingko, varnish tree, tea, candleberry tree and four camellia Japonica, three of which survive. They are the oldest camellias in America.

It should not come as a surprise to you that there are numerous Internet sites that support the contention that Andre Michaux introduced the camellia to Middleton Place Gardens in 1786.

I respect your opinion, but I must still say that the facts do not Lie. The camellia is Rein des Fleurs. No matter how many sites say Michaux planted it, it cannot be so. In the quotes I have found about Middleton and the first camellia, There is usually statements included like " It is generally understood" which leaves wiggle room. Michaux could have given a camellia to Middleton, But it could not be Rein des Fluers. If, as I believe, The first camellia planted outside was planted by Col. Lucas, Then we are doing him a great diservice by rewriting history.
Single red camellias were entering the country about this time. The first camellia imported to America came into Hobokan NJ. We know that from a dated ship manifast. Col. Lucas' camellia was a single red also. Red is an rarer color in camellias, so a gift of a single red would have been a great gift. Jim and I have debated this also, and I have seen no documentation that the camellia was Rein des Fluers. If it was another camellia, Then no one should pick that camellia and say it is the one. This is where the problem begins.

I decided to spend the day doing research. In Harold Hume's book, "Camellias in America" 1946, beginning on page 47, Hume discusses what he calles "The Legend" that Michaux planted the first camellias at Middleton. He states on page 48 " There is nothing in literature contemporary with Michaux's activities in America to indicate that he introduced camellias" He also states" Michaux kept a diary, part of which has been lost, but in the part that remains, covering the period 1787-96, camellias are not mentioned." He does mention the size of Col. Lucas' camellia, but does not give him credit as "first"

I have researched all the camellia books I have from Hume's collection to Chidiamian's "Camellias for everyone" 1959; " The magic of Camellias" by E.G. Waterhouse 1968. and many others. All mention the Michaux legend as one that cannot be verified. I did stumble into one supprising fact though, Every source credits John Stevens of Hoboken, New Jersy with importing the first camellia to this country in 1797. This is documented by a ship manifest. If the date Michaux planted the camellia at Middleton in 1786 is true, then all camellia history in this country must be rewritten. There goes those nasty facts once again.

Varietal names in the late eighteenth century are certainly a red herring. Assuming that there are surviving Michaux camellias at Middleton Place Gardens, it seems that it should be a simple matter for a dendrologist, or some other scientist, to examine and/or test the plant(s) to determine an exact age. That should put the matter to rest. You're welcome to use the phrase "Michaux legend." According to that "legend," Michaux gave three or four camellias to the Middletons. I don't know how many of those plants still survive. Perhaps you should contact your counterpart at Middleton Place to garner a few more facts.

And how do you explain the supposed hoax perpetrated by the Bartrams regarding the _Franklinia alatamaha_, or Ben Franklin Tree?

As the witches in _Macbeth_ say: "Hell is murky." This, too, is a murky subject that all the ship manifests in China cannot clarify. And again, I remind you not to forget the famous plantsman, Louis LeConte of Georgia.

I know very little about the Franklinia's discovery, or Macbeth's witches, only camellias. I will end this discussion by saying " I can call myself the president of the U.S., I might even be able to convince a few others to believe me, but no matter how much I claim it, I am still not sleeping in the Lincoln Bedroom Tonight"

To jay 7bsc...I do not see a way to contact you through GardenWeb. Send me a message, please, as I have a thick folder of correspondence between leading Camellia growers and well known horticulturists written in the early 1940's as they attempt to sort out Camellia history. Much of what is in this folder became the basis for Harold Hume's Camellia writings. This is an unknown, valuable resouce for Camellia historians and should be seen and evaluated.

I am researching pre-1900's introductions. Would you have any info on those that you would be willing to send to me?
Thanks a bunch

Dear Florence_2007:
In order to find the information you require, you should visit the library of the nearest Southern research university, e.g., UGA, Clemson, Auburn, UFL, and investigate the works on the camellia by Harold Hume and G. G. Gerbing. _The American Camellia Yearbook_ (1945-present) is also a "treasure trove" of information on camellia varieties, antique or modern. Most people would consider the information you have requested too voluminous and time intensive to be typed into a message on the Camellia Forum. If a trip to a research library is impossible, you might want to drop by your local public library and request to borrow the Hume and Gerbing books, as well as the annual volumes of _The American Camellia Yearbook_ through interlibrary loan. Who knows? Your local public library may even have some of these books on its own shelves.

Today I mailed to Florence some information that might be helpful re Camellia research. Also included two articles published in The American Horticulture Magazine, dated 1941 and 1945 that were written based on the collective thoughts of the numerous letter writers who contributed and wrangled over the subject of Camellia history. It is doubtful that all will ever be agreed to, but a lot of good minds have tried to untangle the various threads found in writings from around the world. Interesting subject.

I'm sorry, I should have stated that my request was to nandina regarding the information that she posted.
To Jay, I have done all of that and much more and I have all the books recommended. If there are others that you know, please advise.
I agree it would be too time consuming and spacious to post. I should have made myself more clear.
Thank you both for your time and efforts toward my project.

To research the truth about where the first camellia was planted outside, You can "Google" "The Magazine of Horticulture, Botany and all Useful Discoveries vol.5. Then Choose the link that carries you to "Find it at Harvard" Click on Vol. 5 and go to page 150. There is an article there from The Charleston Horticulture Society 1839 about Col. Lucas' Camellia. The Last line in the article reads " If the double and fine varieties of the camellia should prove as hardy as the single, and can be successfully cultivated, they must add greatly to the splendor of the flower garden". This statement reveals that the editor of the journal, C.M. Hovey, and The Horticulture Society of Charleston were unaware of any double camellia of age and substance growing outside in Charleston in 1839. It seems odd they would have missed the double camellia "Rein des Flueres" planted at Middleton over 50 years prior. This documents Col. Lucas' single red camellia as the first planted outside, Whether Middleton has another camellia named "Rein des Fluers" or not, it is a double and is not mentioned.

According to the Southern California Camellia Society's _Camellia Nomenclature Supplement_, the correct spelling of this cultivar's name is 'Reine des Fleurs,' its alternate name being 'Lady Derby.'

In no way does your "research" disprove the widely acknowledged claim that Andre Michaux gave Henry Middleton four camellias in the late 1780's--an era during which varietal names were nonexistent.

Just wanted to make sure you were still out there Jay, You are correct about the "e" The camellia that is reported to be given by Michaux is a double that would be over 50 years old at the time of the above writing in 1839. Does it not seem strange that The Horticulture of Charleston was unaware of the camellia at the time of the above publication.I point out facts to support my case. I have seen nothing but "legend" to support the other.