Afraid I don't have any info, ncgal, but please accept my sincere sympathies for the loss of your golden. What a horrific 24 hours those must have been. :o(

I am sorry to hear about your dog. That is so tragic.

I have not heard of plants that repel snakes, but if you find any other information would you please share it? For now I have been generously distributing moth balls through out the garden, so heavily that it looks like hail because I have heard that they repel snakes.

I am so sorry about your dog. I wonder since you have seen others, if there may be a nest of snakes nearby.
I have heard that the copperhead bite is one of the most painful.

I'm so sorry about your dog.

Consider also that you should address areas of habitat:

Populations can be reduced around human structures by removing preferred habitat such as rock piles, woodpiles, slab piles, sawdust piles and abandoned buildings. Keep grass and weeds trimmed or mowed near dwellings, barns and other buildings.

Copperheads prefer habitats with lots of vines, vegetation and/or debris.

I am so so sorry for your loss, ncgal.

About two weeks about I was dogsitting for my neighbor across the street. Her large collie/lab mix was barking at what looked exactly like a copperhead. The snake seemed to back down and I screamed Isa away on time. My neighbor's lawnmower had been broken so the grass was a little high. If you can, I would keep my lawn mowed. I have never seen one on my bermuda, centipede or fescue lawns, but only sheltered by plants in the garden or on a neighbor's brick walkway. I have 3 dogs (one is blind) so this is a concern of mine too. The basset was once bitten by a nonpoisonous snake.

Again, my heart goes out to you.

claire in sanford

ncgal
sorry for your lost.
look at this
Repel them with all natural, environmentally safe Liquid Fence® Snake Repellent, has been shown to be safe and effective at repelling snakes including:

Northern Ringneck Snake
Eastern Hognose Snake
Smooth Green Snake
Corn Snake
Gray Ratsnake
Yellow Ratsnake
Everglades Ratsnake
California Kingsnake
Desert Black Kingsnake
Speckled Kingsnake
Pueblan Milksnake
Eastern Milksnake
Bullsnake
Northern Pine Snake
Northern Watersnake
Red-Bellied Snake
Eastern Garter Snake
Southern Copperhead
Eastern Cottonmouth
safe for use around kids, pets and livestock.
Florida Cottonmouth
Western Diamondback Rattlesnake
safe to use around kids,pets and livestock.

Blueangel

NCGardenGal, I'm so sorry to hear about your Goldie. I haven't heard of a repellent you can grow but I've used the mothball trick and Snakeaway before. The Snakeaway seemed to work but not the greatest. This is a big concern of mine as well, I've got 2 Labs and a Flat Coat Retriever. They are all so naturally curious, I can imagine how they could tangle with a snake. I watch them like a hawk out here in the country, never allowing them out without supervision and I'm being pretty darn careful about making sure their area where they walk is not snake friendly. I've got Copperhead, and rattler here as well as wild boar and Coyote. After dark, I carry a good "persuader" to make sure none of us are in danger from the nasties of nature if we should accidentally run up on one. Again, my sympathies, and hope you find something to keep them away. Please pass it along if you do find a good repellent, I'm going to try some of the Liquid Fence Blueangle recommends. I would be heartbroken if something happened to my furkids. They are a major part of my family.

I appreciate all the notes I've received - thank you all for your wishes. I did meet with my Vet this afternoon to get any info that might help for the future. One of the things we discussed was repellants. I had researched and found references to "Rattlesnake Master", "Wormwood" and something else I forget. And SnakeAway. In her opinion, none of these are effective. What she did suggest is putting mothballs in sturdy and tightly closed plastic containers and poking small holes in the container (like an old bleach bottle - they're sturdy). Mothballs are poisonous, so they shouldn't just be scattered on the ground. Also remove all rocks, woodpiles, vines, leaf piles, high grass, etc. Unfortunately we have huge boulders and a small stone retaining wall. Can't do anything about the boulders or the wall, but we will be moving all the rocks that we can manage.

So sorry. What a terrible loss. I agree about removing habitat, like brush, fireplace logs, and tall grass. Remember they like to eat rodents and frogs, so my small pond also attracts snakes. My bassett was bitten on the nose 8 years ago and survived - vet said to get a children's chewable benadryl into her asap. My cat was also bitten - survived only after iv for 48 hours to wash out his fluids/system. According to my vet, cats are even more vulnerable than same sized dog. My cats are big hunters, but they all run from a belt lying on the floor - guess they've figured out that snakes are bad news.

Never heard of Rattlesnake master but the oils produced by woodworm are poisonous.

A friend of mine has a snake population issue in her yard and has tried the mothball method. It has been about two months and she says that hasn't help either.

Snakes are not unlike other species of living thing. They tend to gravitate toward things and environments they like. Take that away and you usually get rid of the problem. Sometimes the conditions in a neighbors yard can also contribute to a critter problem too.

Sorry to hear about your dog. Feeling like you have to kill another living thing to be safe is a bad feeling too. Hope you get things worked out.

I'm so sorry for your loss. It's heartbreaking to lose a pet.

I have no offers of repelling snakes other than the usual maintenance. In the heat of the summer, they tend to hunt at night. When I lived on a property in the woods, my close encounters were always just before sundown.

Cameron

Rattlesnake Master is a native Eryngium and a pretty but scrappy plant for the garden. Wormwood is Artemesia which is pretty toxic and aromatic. My computer connection is kinda jumpy right now so I don't dare switch over to google and douple check the spellings - I'm typing them from memory so they may be off a letter or two.

I cannot imagine either of these or the moth balls being that good at getting rid of snakes. Some well placed rat bait to rid the area of small rodents would drop the snake food population but would also be toxic for any dogs in the area.

I'd wait til winter to move the large rocks - just to avoid any hiding critters in them.

My limited experience with copperheads is that they seem to like cooler weather, you don't see them out sunning themselves as much as other snakes, and they seem to like to be around oak trees since their camouflage pattern mimics oak leaf litter.

A friend of mine who's dog repeatedly got bitten just kept a bottle of liquid Benadryl on hand - there's a specific dose per pound so you should know your dogs weight if you plan on treating them yourself. Her dog never learned to leave snakes alone, nor horses and mules - it once had to have special braces installed on its teeth while his jaw was healing from a nasty kick in the face.

So sorry to hear about your loss.

The dosage for the Benydryl is 1mg per pound of dog. I use the chewable tablets. So sorry to hear of your loss.

ncgal, I am so sorry you lost your pet. That is so sad.
I hope you can manage to control your area so this will not happen again.
I don't like snakes, I will not go outside after dark because of them...
There really isn't much you can do about them other then what was suggested already and get rid of anything they can make a home in or near.
Again, so sorry you lost you Goldie.

... I read your post with sadness, so sorry for the loss of your dog.

I have a terrible snake problem also and it's made me rethink my garden and lifestyle. I am deathly afraid for myself, family and pets. Good luck

Carrie

NCgal - I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your dog.

From what I have read, snake repellents are highly ineffective.
Still, Artemesia is pretty and maybe it would help. Like many plants, it is "poisonous". According to the ext. service, it has monoterpene thujone which is toxic in large quantities.
(http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/poison/indexa_e.htm)

For anyone looking to ID snakes, I like this site: www.herpsofnc.org
I used it earlier this year to ID a mole kingsnake, which I thought looked a lot like a copperhead.

seahorse

Find someone who can get you a few black snakes or king snakes. They are harmless to humans and pets (except mayby rats and rabbits) and will keep all other snakes away, including copperheads and rattlesnakes.
I have photos of a black snake eating a rattlesnake if anyone would like to see them.
Hugh

We have no shortage of black snakes, but they sure don't seem to be helping the problem.

That is a good point, which some may not know. Snakes such as kingsnakes are supposed to prey on copperheads.

Sheesh, I think we are not supposed to have rattlers in my part of NC....but every time I hear a rattle (from dry leaves or seedheads), I freeze. Just in case!

s.

I'm so sorry to hear about your dog. King snakes do prey on poisonous snakes but that won't help your immediate problem.

I don't know about poisons or repellants, NCGal, BUT one thing that WILL trap and kill anything -- including snakes -- that comes in contact with it is a possiblity for you, although it's not necessarily the nicest thing to use or think about: a glue trap -- one of the large ones made for rats.

You take a piece of large (4 -6") PVC or similar tubing cut to a foot or so long and SECURE the glue trap to the bottom of the center of it. Make certain the tubing you use is too small for any of your PETS to get into and bear in mind that any rats, mice, chipmunks squirrels or anything else that walks or crawls onto that glue trap WILL BE STUCK there for good -- including a snake.

Place a few of those in areas where you think the snakes might be likely to inhabit and check them periodically -- If you have pets, I'd remember to check them before letting the pets into the area, as a trapped copperhead could be even MORE dangerous to a dog sticking its snout inside a tube trying to get at it.

That's the ONLY way I know to trap snakes (some glue traps actually list snakes as one of the things you can catch with them). The repellants work only so long as they don't get washed away by rain, and mothballs may repell, but then they're also toxic, and even if you have them in containers with holes in them, every time it rains, some of their toxicity is being released.

I really DON'T know a foolproof answer... Worries me, too, as my little Tater Tot would probably go APE over a snake.
Jeff

Oh no he didin. I had to check the date twice to make sure this was a new post from you. So good to see you are still out there. We've wondered about you here every now and then. I hope you and Tater Tot are doing well. Adele

Thanks Jeff - that's something I hadn't thought of. I'm not sure if I can do it - 2 of my dogs are big, but I also have a 7 lb Pomeranian ........ who is very nosy, lolol. And I really hate the thought of killing innocent squirrels and chipmunks. Good thought, though.

Thanks also for your insight that toxic liquid would leak through containers with holes - that hadn't occurred to me.

I do think I may have come up with another idea I'm that thinking about. I have a small pond out front where I found the 2 Copperheads I killed after Hunter died. (He was bit in the BACK yard, so I don't think I got the killer snake). But every fall I cover the pond with bird netting to keep the
leaves out and a couple of years ago a snake got trapped in it and died.

I do pretty much know the general area where the snakes are in the back ...... I'm thinking of buying a large amount of bird netting, scrunching it up and staking it in the ground. This entire area would then be temporarily fenced off to keep the dogs away. (Adding additional fencing alone would not work since the snakes could slither right through or use some of the mole holes to avoid it). But if they get caught in the bird netting that might do the trick.

I think we're safe for the rest of this year - so I have until next summer to work out a solution. I've also contacted several landscaping contractors and offered the rocks (free) if they will just come and take them away. They're way too big for me to handle, and I think getting rid of as many of them as possible would help also. Of course, there's nothing I can do about the small stone wall, but that would be part of the area where the bird netting would go. I'm thinking that any small, trapped animals could
chew through to get away, but the snakes don't have that capability.

Winnie

Okay - here's the problem with the bird netting...

I put bird netting around my plants that I want to protect from rabbits, etc.... The netting sits on top of the plants.

One night, I left some netting in the woods. The next week or so, when I came across the netting (I had forgotten I left it there), it was housing a dead BLACK snake - I was so upset. I would have been happy had it been the copperhead that was found in my garden the week before, but unfortunately it was a black snake.

Sorry... maybe your netting will trap the copperheads, but beware it may trap a "good" snake too.

Carrie

Just a tad OT, I want to say that it's really nice to see that Jeff's back posting and I hope he's here to stay! In my early lurking days I always enjoyed and learned a lot from his posts..... and I've missed him.

Jeff, I've emailed your sticky trap description to my son who is having snake problems in his chicken house and fears for the feathered kids - thanks, hopefully this will be the right trick!

Glad you're back, please stay and play with us!

Just have to say it's so nice to see you back Jeff! i did a double take at the date, too.

I agree with the bird netting/deer netting issues on the ground. We are in the slow process of surrounding our large backyard with the netting stuff to deter deer (fits and starts). During one of the slow times, some sat bunched on the ground for a month or more in a long line. When we got back to working on it, pete found 3 snake skeletons in it that had gotten trapped. Prolly all water snakes and/or blacks. We do have coppers but they're a fairly rare site. I wouldn't bet on a small critter being able to get itself chewed out or disentangled. We use it to cover our ponds in the winter for leaves and i've had to rescue a number of snakes and critters out of or out from under the netting.

Our neighbor's dogs killed a copperhead and managed to get bitten in the process about a month ago and since it was right after the first time i read this big thread, i was able to tell her to use benadryl and get the dog treated asap. My other neighbor who's a herpetologist & all around go-to-for-advice kinda guy later said it's actually very unusual for a dog to die of a copperhead bite- mostly they get bit once, and learn to recognize the color pattern and especially the distinctive smell and will avoid them in the future, even if they still harass other snakes. The neighbor's dog's neck swelled up but it was ok with some shots and time.

Well, I don't know what the answer is. Hunter did die (my Vet agrees it's unusual for a dog not to survive this kind of bite)and he was the biggest of my dogs. I'm not willing to take a chance on losing another. I think our threat is over for this year, but we've had Copperhead problems in all the 8 years we've lived here. So far (unless I can find another alternative) I think the netting will be my best chance for next summer. It will be unfortunate if a "good" snake is trapped, but I'd rather that than lose another dog.

OK, so sorry but I gotta say it - glue traps! Wow, isn't trapping and killing anything that moves in your garden a little environmentally unfriendly? I have lost pets to all manner of hazards as well as old age (my own impending hazard), so I am very sorry about the cherished pet that was killed, but that was VERY unusual. I have had both a cat and a dog bitten, which I think is unusual anyway, but neither died. A little REASONABLE precaution would seem in order. There's ticks out there too, and debilitating diseases that accompany them, but we don't drench the garden with pesticide anymore, right? King snakes do eat other snakes, including copperheads. All your snakes eat voles and mice. We would be knee deep on globe in rodents if not for snakes - heard it on Natl Geog documentary, so it must be true. Snakes don't care about poisons and repellants, so knock yourself out putting those out please. But I object to killing nonpoisonous snakes and chipmunks with glue traps and excessive use of netting. There are copperheads and lots of other dangers out there. Dangers like mold spores and chemical residues in dry-cleaned clothes and synthetic carpet INSIDE your house as well. This snake thing is not a rational fear, balanced by probability of a bite. It's a phobia - so it's not about them, it's about US. If a person's phobia of snakes makes them give up gardening, then I feel sorry about that. Maybe some therapy for the phobia is in order. Friday I saw two ring-neck snakes twisted in romance under the redbud trees. They are part of the ecosystem, and I felt happy that they are able to survive near my house. Last night my son saw a 6-foot copperhead against the garage door, hunting toads that hunt bugs that inhabit the garden that I steward. The next time I see him, he is dead, because a 6-ft copperhead is a danger I can remove selectively. I feel sorry about having to kill it, but that's the price as people like me continue to push the natural world into smaller space as we expand to suck up all the available space and resource. I moved out here to have some natural buffer around me, but I pushed animals out of their homes by building this house. I am not a liberal or a "tree-hugger", but letting what can co-exist with me live seems the least I can do.

Six feet?!! Okay, I've heard enough about snakes - Six feet? OMG, that's big! How do you propose to kill the six footer? And... how can you even surmise when you will come across that particular one again? Please let us know how you handle this... Thanks for the rest of the post - very helpful for those of us (me..) who DO have phobias...

Carrie

I've done a lot of research on Copperheads since Hunter died and I have never come across anything about them getting to that size. Everything I've read say's they don't get longer than about 36".
Winnie

Thanks, Winnie - that post about a six foot snake really gave me the chills.... you are a dear..

Carrie

Well, my son is 6 foot even, and he reported it as long as his armspread, so apparently toads are nutricious. lol. My book also says 24-45" range however. A sponge-mop to hold it down near the head, followed by a flat-edge shovel to behead it works. They are territorial, so I think I'll have a photo to post at some point, though maybe cool weather will send him off to a quiet place to doze. Babies have a yellow tail, which they may shake against leaves, making a sort of rattling sound, as a defense mechanism, but lots of nonvenomous snakes do the same thing.

My herp neighbor found a pregger copperhead a few years back that was about 3'. I was surprised at how small around she really was, in comparison to having 12!! babies. I got to shoot pix of her and then her and the babies after she had them (which were pretty cute, really, in an odd way). He relocated them to an inaccessible area to the public in a rural park. I'd hate to see a 6' copperhead. I'm not phobic about snakes in general, but that might give me the willies. I think he'd get the shovel treatment at my place, too!

Jeff - question about that glue trap. What kind of glue do you use that will last a while, and is it applied just to the bottom of the PVC piece? Is the PVC anchored ina any way from rolling or just tossed down some where? Thanks.

Tame - That must have been an experience. I get too caught up in the moment to remember to grab my camera. I would love to see some of the photos you guys have taken though.

No offense, I know we all think on a different wavelength so I am not judging but I wouldn't use anything that trapped any and everything that came across it either. I love my garden snakes and black snakes and want them to stick around. Not to mention we have frogs and turtles and all kinds of other interesting helpful things around here that I enjoy looking at.

I wonder if you call a herp vet in the area if they could give you some options. Maybe you could call a wildlife rehabber that specializes in reptiles. I know there is somebody you can get in touch with that could relocate the snake/s where you and the snake can both be safe.

i know i posted them before- but here's just a couple of those shots:

preggo mamma from above:
{{gwi:583389}}
preggo mamma 3/4:
{{gwi:583392}}
mess o' babies (11 of the 12):
{{gwi:583394}}
one baby up close (they look 'mean' and strike even as tots); you can see the pits one the top of its head:
{{gwi:583396}}

The little ones were probably about as thick as a pencil if i recall right. You kind of get a sense via the scale of the moss. -Tammy

Wow.. how neat is that? Of all the creatures in the world reptiles have some of the most beautiful patterns.

Those shots show off a lot of their details. Have you thought of submitting them to one of these herp sites that provide photos for identification?

No- never really gave it a thought. Perhaps i will. Yeah, they were really pretty- too bad they tend to be ill tempered as well. They did behave for us for the most part. Alvin demonstrated just how fast they learn- he put his foot close to herd the 2 babies we shot (who wanted to crawl away) and they struck 1 or 2 times before they realized they couldn't penetrate the shoe/boot and ignored it after that and settled down. The female he handled with the hooks & such and she was quite calm and docile. I never got closer than about 2 or 3 feet to any of them. The kids got to observe up close, too, and i now feel confident they could ID one quickly. It's like the difference of trying to learn to ID weeds from pictures versus having someone show you in person the subtle differences. To me, there's just no comparison.

In the area that encompasses the Ozark Mountains and foothills (Arkansas, Missouri, Oklahoma) there is a subspecies or race of copperhead that has a lot of pink in its coloring - a very pretty snake. A friend of mine that works with reptiles at the zoo takes it upon herself to rescue as many as she can and when you visit she always has them in buckets or boxes or pillowcases in transit to someplace. Sometimes to be released, sometimes to other people who will house them awhile and then release them, some people to breed them I guess. I never ask. From all I've been told the bite is very painful but not life threatening as long as you end up in front of a doctor before too long.

On one of my recent trips she picked me up in her pickup (the only vehicle allowed in OK) and we headed off to her place way out in the country by Lake Oolagah (I love those Native American names). On the way we had to stop and pick up her preteen daughter from school. We screamed through the school parking lot, shuffled some debris around behind the seat so that the kid would fit along with my luggage. It wasn't until we got out into the countryside that my friend mentioned we would have to stop so that she could release some snakes into the wild. I thought this would be great and that I could take some photos, since I had my camera with me.

We stopped on an old country road in the shade of some trees and found a spot with a small stream - a perfect spot for a release, a rarely travelled road, shelter, food and water, a reptiles dream home.

I had visions of a snake or two, maybe one poisonous in the mix. I was wrong. They were all copperheads, and there was a bunch of them. I don't remember how many exactly but it was more than 7. I also assumed they were in containers in the bed of the truck - WRONG! they were in tupperware containers on the floor of the kingcab, right at her daughters feet!!! It all came off as reckless to me but in all her life (and her children's) no one has ever been bitten - her horses have left plenty of scars on everyone and have proven far more dangerous than the reptiles.

I've worked with reptiles in my past though I was never certified to work with venomous (and never wanted to be either). Snakes don't bother me like they do other people. When my vole population gets out of hand I've been known to haul home anything legless with scales to help with the problem - including copperheads. My tune may change if a person or pet gets bit, but until then they are all welcome in my yard.

A problem with catch traps - glue traps, snap traps or bird netting left on the ground is that unless you check it every day the rotting animal stuck in the trap can really stink up your back yard.

heh, I wear open toed shoes in the yard all the time but this conversation makes me want to get some of those brown work boots.

I agree, seeing something in person is way more effective than seeing it in a photo but you know, some people don't care to get that close. Sometimes if you can at least get them to look at photos they have some sort of frame of reference.

I think my attitude changed about "legless" creatures when we killed one in the yard about five/six years ago. It ended up being something like a Northern Brown Snake. It was a while back so I'm not sure but I am positive it wasn't poisonous. Of course I went on a crusade after that and ended up in a few shouting matches trying to protect a couple of black snakes.

It's funny because I have had snakes as pets in the past but still had that fear of snakes in the wild. I think a lot of that has to do with not being able to tell one from another. Since I have been reading up on them I am more comfortable with being closer than before but still not into handling them.

I think it is great that your friend is into the retrieval and rescue effort. I know they are not exactly endangered species but there's no telling from one day to the next what will and won't be on that list. It's good to know that there are others helping to balance things out some.
-Tina

I knew with all this talk about snakes I would see one. I picked up a potted plant and there was a little brown snake. Nothing lethal but a snake all the same.

Bird net does seem to be effective at catching snakes. I have seen small animals stuck in it, too. So if you do use the bird net, please check it often (especially in hot weather).

s.

So my son found another one on the road Tuesday afternoon, while taking a walk. He ran to a house nearby for a shovel, but he and the neighbor ultimately ended up running it over with a car to kill it. Unbelievable that it stayed still for that execution.

I'm sorry you lost your dog. I just had a dog bitten by a copperhead on Sunday. He is doing much better today though. The snake was under the trash can right by the house. That was the fourth one I had seen on my street in three days. We hadn't seen any for 12 years before that.
Dana

I debated between bringing this thread back up (found it thru search) and starting a new one - hope ncgal is okay with this, I truly don't mean to open an old wound.

But, there is much good info in the posts above and this morning I spotted a copperhead in my backyard - sent shivers down my spine! I have a small dog and thankfully, I spotted the snake before she did. Now I've got her backyard access closed off and am just hoping the copperhead moves on. Pup won't get back out until I beat the bushes and declare the area snake-free. Not a good way to spend an otherwise perfect Sunday :o(

Hi Zigzag,
Yes, it's that time of year again. :-( I keep a sharpened hoe at each door and am very watchful. I have no problem chopping them (killed 2 last Aug after Hunter died from the bite). I can share my property with Black snakes (don't want to, but I will) but anything that has the potential to kill my dogs has to be dealt with. I have bought the bird net and am still contemplating using that bundled on the ground (within some temp fencing to keep the dogs away) but so far the thought of trapping innocent animals has kept me from installing it. I'm prepared to go that route if I need to.

ncgal - thank you. I really didn't want for you to feel bad that I'd topped this thread and appreciate your understanding. Your unfortunate episode led to lots of good advice.

I would so have chopped this snake, but for now, it's staying way back up against a timber retaining wall so I'd have to haul it out first to chop it. If this thing doesn't disappear on its own, my son is ready to come over and exterminate it by shovel hit. He mentioned some sort of sulfur powder spread on the yard perimeter to deter snakes - I'll have to research that further before consideration.

Like you, I don't like any snakes, but some do serve a beneficial purpose and I'll tolerate them ..... copperheads don't - they are just evil.

Snake Away contains sulfur - 28% and the same chemicals as mothballs. Lowe's sells a lot of this stuff. We also sell Espoma's "Soil acidifier" which is 30% garden sulfur.

I've never used either. I only have one house cat who rarely ventures outside and even then is afraid to walk on grass. She was traumatized as a kitten by a couple of hummingbirds. So I tend to only worry about myself with snakes. I'm very careful when picking up rocks and moving things that have been laying around for a while. I do all my cleanup in the woody areas in winter. I don't even walk down there in summer.