Bencelest, weren't you the one telling me late last year to never spray as natural predators will take care of everything, when I took it upon myself to start my own pesticide spray regimen?

Do you know why the other tree which has a ton of new growth isn't producing new buds?

What do you recommend to do for scales?

pepper,
This early spring I had several citrus with the Cottony Cushion Scale doing their damage. I spent over a day on each tree cleaning every leaf individually that had the sooty mold with plain water -- and removed every damaged leaf, including the leaves damaged from leafminers. I used alcohol to clean the leaves with the scales and then used my fingers to smash the scales and any ant on the trunk and limbs -- paying special attention to the crevices and underside of the limbs Then I removed all the pine straw mulch and used my hands to briskly rub the ground under the trees, reasoning I could harm anything on the ground.

Lots of leaves fell after all my intervention and then a few unexpected frosts finished the job. I wasn't thinking about fruit -- just wanting healthy trees. Now the trees are filling out just fine and I haven't seen a sign of scales or miners.

Recently I sprayed with FE and spray with Neem every 10 days or so. I certainly am a newcomer when it comes to citrus trees and the insects. But it has been almost two months and there are no signs of CCS or LM.

Brass tacks, thanks for the advice, but what I really want to know is after you eradicated the leaf miners and scales, and saw all that new growth, are you also seeing blooms or are you content to wait till next year before you see that?

Sorry but it is not me.
I am not the one who watches the environment and save the earth from contaminants.
My motto is whatever works use it.
But I am not an expert giving advice on preventing/eradicating scales. In fact I am not an expert on anything. I just learn from experience from my backyard garden so whatever I tell you or anyone else take it like a grain of salt.
I never have scale problem. Thanks Almighthy.
But here's an excerp that I found from searching:
"Most scale pests in Florida are under effective biological control. Purple scale and Florida red scale are two good examples. Other species such as citrus snow scale are not yet fully controlled by biological methods alone. Looking for and estimating the percent of scale population exhibiting parasite emergence holes gives a good indication of how effective biological control is in that specific scale populations "

It is possible for biological, or natural, control to be disrupted by the misuse of pesticides which can adversely affect natural controls and produce a resurgence of scale pests. For example, two or more applications of sulfur within a few months can severely reduce the parasite population. Wettable powders of copper, zinc and manganese and even excessive dust, can inhibit the searching ability of parasites and predators. Copper applications also inhibit scale-attacking parasites"
But Brass tacks has a good regimen. I would do that first if I were you.
You know once you eradicate the scales and new buds form, I believe that you will have blooms following. Not much but you will have. It is when your tree recuperate fully that you will have lots of flowers but remember only 2% of the flowers will turn to fruit.

I saw the pictures of your tree on the other thread and I am sorry to say that your tree is in advance stage of multiple infestation and I am taking my word back that you will have flowers when you take care of the scale problem. You will only have normal flowers and blooms when you have plenty of normal leaves and normal branches growing.
I am sorry to say that I don't see any of those in your pictures. The little shoots that came out from the bigger branch are not normal branches growing. They are just water sports that won't bear any flowers till it matures. Maybe 2 to 3 years down the road if they get nourishment. The problem is that the pests are sucking almost all the nourishment off of your tree leaving nothing for the leaves.

And here's an excerp from one of the readers in this forum regarding Fish Emulsion:
"FWIW - For years, I've used applications of fish emulsion as a foliar feeding at the same time I apply Daconil as an anti-fungal on my garden display containers. I am pretty observant when it comes to plants, and have never noted any insecticidal deterrent from its application. It is my opinion that fish emulsion as an insecticide is approximately equal to sorcery in its level of effectiveness - but it's only my opinion. You and the readers can decide for yourselves, but I hope I've at least left you with a bent toward skepticism at its use.
Take care, & thanks (indirectly) for the joke. "
But if it is working for you go for it.

By looking at the picture I also think that you have an iron dificiency:
"Severe Nitrogen deficiency- totally yellow leaves with no variation of color or yellow orange veins with some green out on the far side.
With less severe nitrogen deficiency will show up on the older leaves with the new leaves will still having some green .
Iron deficiency - new leaves with green veins on an otherwise yellow leaf with no green border area around the veins.
Magnesium Difficiency- the older leaves have a green delta shape color in the lower center portion while the tips and sides are yellow."

And here's Strawboss thread posted on April 13

What are the little cotton ball looking things growing on my citrus. I will wipe them off and get a gooey rust colored substance on my fingers.
How do I treat this? Dishwater, insect soap, pressure washer, dynamite or what the heck.

I use fish emulsion about every two weeks but they seem to love it.

This is what I call a massive growth

{{gwi:575402}}

Rick:
I am sorry I monopolize your thread.
This should be my last message here.

I am still tryng to learn how to imbed pictures

{{gwi:575404}}

Pepper,
Yes, the citrus trees have blossoms. Not a whole lot, but I think that may also be due to the fact that I hadn't been giving the trees enough water (for fear of overwatering), plus the one very heavy frost we had that was unexpected -- a very late frost and the trees weren't protected. There were blossoms on the trees when that frost came through. We've had some harsh winds too. In fact -- the winds were so great that I covered the trees to keep them from beating up on themselves and loosing more blossoms. That did the trick -- no more lost leaves or blossoms.

Last year the Meyer fruit was affected by Rust Mites (brown skins). Soon I need to decide what to do about them. Even though I can't see them, I figure they're round about. I had a very bad experience with the oil I used last year (leaves frying and falling off the trees).

Good Luck

{{gwi:575405}}

Ahhh....
Now I got it.

Thanks Bencelest, I am also not 100% convinced Fish Emulsion is a cure all for my problem, but I have seen some success when I was doing treatments a few times a week. I haven't sprayed in a month and a half so I guess with Citrus you need to spray regularly if even to keep pests at bay even when things are optimal? I've used Organicide as thats supposed to kill the bad guys but I don't like that it leaves the leaves sticky and I only would spray that in the early morning. I guess I will go back to spraying a few times a week. Any recommendations on what chemicals to try? And to what frequency?

Bencelest, you may be right about certain deficiencies, I basically used the Vigoro Citrus fertilizer so I don't know if there are certain nutrients I need to ammend separately from that. I have iron supplements as well as magnesium (would epsom salt work the same), so I can try that to see if it helps.

Also, sorry for the dumb question, but how do I find the scales on the tree? I don't see anything on my tree that looks like the scales one would find on rose bushes like this:

{{gwi:575407}}

If this is citrus scale, then I don't see anything remotely like this on my trees.

{{gwi:575410}}

Pepprz:
I am not an expert regarding the prevention and eradication of scales. I hope somebody will chip in here but let me tell you this. I think your plants need help badly and I hope that you will do as I tell you because when I look at the pictures you posted it gave me goose pimples. Peppererz, I am not putting you down but I have not seen such tremendous infestation of that magnitude on a tree like that on the pictures even on the books that I read.
I hope you cut a branch and take that to the nearest Agriculture extension in your area and ask for recommendation how to cure it.
From the looks of things you have more than one case of scales on your trees.
Try google on Search and just type "plant scales" and search for the kind you have and it will tell you the history, life cycle and also how to prevent and KILL them.
Scales once become adults attach itself permanently to the branches like they are part of the bark. Those bast...rds can also camouflaged themselves so good but if you see a bump in the bark and if you use your fingernails to squeeze them you will have some squashy stuff in your hand like gooey stuff- that my friend is a scale. On top of this picture there are that round brown thing that look like half of a half of a peanut- those are scales or even the white stuff on the leaves and branchesÂ..
I can give you also a drastic step to do but you may ot like this but here we go:
If that is my tree , first I would put some kind of plastic on the bottom of the tree and then I would cut most of the branches and leave just 3 to four main branches. Then I would gather all of the infected branch and burn them or put it inside your stove and kill those basÂ.rds ( sorry for the cussing). Or just put them inside a big can and put gasoline inside or kerosine or what have you.. Make sure also to gather the plastic under the tree and do the same thing.
Then , I would get me a sprayer and fill it up with alcohol 1 part alcohol 3 parts water and spray the tree and the ground at your hearts contents. Soak the whole area if you will.
Remember you are at WAR with this BÂds and anything goes.
Thiis way you can get rid of the aphids, the everything that are killing your tree.
Then to invigorate your tree, IÂll tell you that later if you want to.
Benny

You know Pepprz, I can bet you 5 cents that if you do what I told you you will have bloooms and fruit this Summer.
Spring is just around the corner and the plants are now preparing to put out new buds. With these new buds comes with flowers.

Thanks Bencelest, I think I will try the alcohol spray. I would have never thought such a high concentration of it would be safe, but it can't hurt either.

And if you have ants on your tree get rid of them.
Those are the disease carriers to multiply your scales and other pests. If you can get rid of the source, then got it made.
There are so many kinds of scales that can attack your tree of shape and form and there are brown black, white green oh, I don't know.

Yes the ants are present. I will line the trunk with diomataceous earth to get rid of them.

Let me know when you spray your plant with alcohol and the result please. It's going to take a few days to find the result. You should inspect and really look very close to the branches for scales and experiment how you can find them. After a few days those bumps that you found will become an empty shell (I hope). And to the leaves I think you also have some mites or something. I'll let you know later. OK?

After looking at your pictures I think your plant is infested with powdery mildew, aphids, scales and spider mites. And lichens.
You can go to the store and get ones that will kill those creatures. Remember each of those cretures have different kinds of ways to kill them so you are talking about $40 worh of chemicals.
Some people will object with my cure so let's have them guys. How will you do it?
If it's my tree I'd strip it good so I will have a new nice looking tree this summer with flowers. With lots of new branches.But to each its own.
You owe to see how my trees look right now with new leaves and all.

Someone said lichens are harmless so don't remove them. Bencelest, you may be looking at the before pictures from the other post, when there was a pretty bad infestation. It is not as bad now. As for the bumps or scales I don't see or feel them. The splotches on the bark is pruning sealer, so the pictures make it look like some sort of fungal growth but it's not.

Oh, OK. Yes, I don't know anything about lichens. But when I noticed when I lived in Florida, if the tree has lichens there were no growth and the tree appeared to have less leaves and appeared sick.
But the leaves on your other thread has aphids and spider mites. Lots of them.
Once you get rid of them let's talk about how you can force to have new growth so you can have fruit this year.
You can spray alcohol 1 part and 3 parts water to get rid of spider mites and aphids. Make sure you don't mix it with any other chemicals specially dish detergents. dish detergents are more harmful than alcohol to plants.
Some thought, where do lichens get its nourishment other than the host plant and I thought they are parasitic plant.

Bencelest I am afraid I was wrong and you were correct. There is a massive infestation of some kind of scale some brown some black. Upon closer inspection I was able to scrap off little raised dots. There is so many though I am going to spray tomorrrow morning with the alcohol. These were probably still in tact when I was spraying before as I thought the little bumps was just the stressed out bark but it was the scales all along. THIS IS WAR!!!!!

heh-heh!
Don't let me say it "I told you so". (LOL)
Anyway, we are halfway there for your fruiting citrus (to be).
I am also thinking, to scrape those things in the bark that you put without damaging the bark of course and very importantly if you are at task for scraping all those black sooty molds on the leaves for photosynthetic activity to expose the greens on the leaf surface so they can mfr food for the tree and thereby will promote fruiting I mean flowers.
You said you are AT WAR!.
So remove those black residue. A used tooth brush will do.
You at the same time maybe scraping aphids, scales and spider mites so don't damp the used water on the ground but in your garbage disposal or maybe some dish soap or chemicals.What we want is to kill those ba....rds.

Pepperz:
Brass tacks has a good point here as he pointed outlast April 24 in this htread
" pepper,
This early spring I had several citrus with the Cottony Cushion Scale doing their damage. I spent over a day on each tree cleaning every leaf individually that had the sooty mold with plain water -- and removed every damaged leaf, including the leaves damaged from leafminers. I used alcohol to clean the leaves with the scales and then used my fingers to smash the scales and any ant on the trunk and limbs -- paying special attention to the crevices and underside of the limbs Then I removed all the pine straw mulch and used my hands to briskly rub the ground under the trees, reasoning I could harm anything on the ground.
Lots of leaves fell after all my intervention and then a few unexpected frosts finished the job. I wasn't thinking about fruit -- just wanting healthy trees. Now the trees are filling out just fine and I haven't seen a sign of scales or miners.

Recently I sprayed with FE and spray with Neem every 10 days or so. I certainly am a newcomer when it comes to citrus trees and the insects. But it has been almost two months and there are no signs of CCS or LM. "
I am not sure if FE helps him to eradicate the bugs but surely it helps him to envigorate his tree."

BTW I use FE as a fertilizer and they are very good. But I am not sure about neem oil or the other kinds of oil that gives adverse effect on the leaves specifically dropping all the leaves off of the tree. I'll find which one.

Another thought:
I don't think I ever ask you if your citrus is planted in pot or on the ground. I am willing to bet it is planted on the ground because of the lichens attached to your tree plus the infestation which is open to all the increment weather.
Wether it is planted in pot or ground I believe the soil is compacted and that is why there are not much normal new growth and or problem with nutrients.
Can you post an overall view of your citrus including the sorroundings? then another picture closer to the base of the trunk and soil that sorrounds it.
Flowers come only on new growth and that's what we are aiming for- new solid plenty of new buds therefore flowers and then fruitlets.
We're getting there.
But we need to amend the soil so it will be citrus friendly meaning the pH is at optimum so all the nutrients can be picked up by the roots to send to the leaves and all.

A follow up"
Also here's a ver good advice from Rhizo and Toni
Posted by rhizo_1 7a AL (My Page) on Fri, Apr 27, 07 at 9:58

A simple alcohol and water mist, or horticultural oil spray can kill the eggs that might be lurking in the little nooks and crannies. That's on top of what Toni suggests, which is good advice. Eggs will not easily rinse off with a stream of water, but need a bit of help. "

Hort oil was what I was thinking off and not neem oil. Sometimes neem oil gives an adverse effect on leaves as reported by some members here. "Dropping off all the leaves"

The organocide is a sesame based oil. I have had the leaf fall off any time I've used it for other plants so I always use it much less strength than they recommend.

I jusr sprayed with the alcohol / water mix. Scraped off a few patches of scales. Tomorrow when I spray again I think I will take a bath bristle brush to the trunk and larger branches as a toothbrush would take forever, and yes Bencelest these are 2 grapefruit trees planted in the ground. A ruby red and a pink grapefruit.

Good! You are doing good.
How big are they?

How big are trees or the scales? One tree is probably 20 years old and the other one is probably 17 years old.

Here's the Ruby Red which is approx 17 years old and the one with new growth but no blossoms or fruit.

{{gwi:575412}}

This is a case of severe undernourishment and bad infestation of scale. When was the last time you fertilized and how much? Use 2 doses of dormant oil spaced about 2 weeks apart. This will kill the scale and whiteflies. I think you are dreaming trying to kill scale with alcohol on a full sized tree!

Here is a link that might be useful: mrtexas

You know I am beginning to think that your soil is not compatible with your plant by looking at the picture.
For a 17 year old tree that is a very small tree . It should be 10 times bigger and 10 times denser than that. I believe your soil is the culprit plus the bugs that are eating all the nutrients. You need to add a lot of soil amendments.
Let me ask you what are those black soil that surrounds your plant?
Either way whether the soil is high or low on pH you need to have a high concentration of compost. The grass appears to be barely living even. If you have a good soil, those grass will be fat and green. So it means that I would guess that you have a very high alkaline soil so that no matter what you do your plant and even the grass the nutrients are not available. it is as if a baby has a closed mouth when you feed her. so no matter how you feed her none will go into her belly. The same thing with your citrus.
Here's what you should do.
Sharpen your spade because I think you will have to dig real hard to a very hard soil.
Dig around the tree up to the drip line 12 inches deep. Be careful. Don't damage the roots that are protruding and they are shallow rooted.
Buy about 2 bags of steer manure, 4 bags of pine bark 4 bags of sand or perlite and as many bags of compost you can afford. 4 to 7 bags.
What you need is a lot of humus in your soil to correct the pH imbalance and to be well draining and water retaining.
I wish you can check the pH of your soil so I can actually tell you how to correct it. One way is get a sample of your soil at 4 locations at 6 inches deep and have your ag extension measure it for free.
It's useless to use the cheapo pH meter that cost $12 or so.
But if you will do the above I am pretty sure you'll see the difference a month down the road. Provided of course you got rid of the bugs and the that you just discovered.
And another thing:
You mentioned that you only apply dilute solution of some kind of oil to kill the bugs because you said it defoliate your plant in the past.
DonÂt do that. You may kill the majority of them but ones that were left ones that you did not kill will only develop resistance to the oil that you use and once they multiply again the oil that you will apply will have no effect to the new generation of bugs. ThatÂs how we develop anti toxin for snake bites. We inject small amount of venom into a horse but not to kill him and in the long run the horse develop antibodies to the venom.

Mr. Texas said it in a few words ones that I wanted to say.
If it so happens you know the pH of your soil, the next step is to tell you the kind of fertilizer to apply.
There are fertilizers that can make your soil acidic , alkaline or neutral. It is also important to test your (tap) water alkalinity.

If you do what I told you you would create a friendly soil the citrus roots can grow into. You'll find that new root hairs will grow in abundance so that they will suck all the nutrients from the soil provided the pH is at optimum or between 5.6 to 7.2. Either lower or higher than that there will be some nutrients not available to citrus thereby causing chlorosis.
The reason why testng tap water which is what you water your plant with is because overtime it will affect the pH of your soil.
Tap water could be alkaline or acidic. You can use the right fertilizer to counteract the effect of your irrigation water.
Well let's see first if you can eradicate your bugs and put the compost around your plants.

Bencelest I will have to check the PH, I never thought of that since this tree has been here for so many years. And with Citrus I just assumed since I live in Florida it is growing in it's native soil, which down here means mostly sand.

The black stuff around the soil was mostly shadow from the dark picture, but before I took the picture I did pour a 40# bag of Black Kow manure. Didn't really go to far, I may need several. That and I watered it and the soil doesn't seem to dry up as quickly as before with pure sand.

MR Texas, I fertilized with the Vigoro Citrus and Avocado fertilizer sometime in November, and then just again in the beginning of April. I think adding compost may be the biggest difference since the Citrus roots are shallow.

Bencelest, the entire lawn is mostly weeds as grass here doesn't grow too well in the sand. I will test the PH with a cheap PH meter I have.

I added Miracid last Nov too thinking maybe it needed more acid but I didn't add too much and if anything the tree had improved since then. If I had a before and after picture you'd see it is doing much better than last fall. I know it's got a long way to go, but I am not giving up on it.

MR Texas, the dormant oil you mentioned, how different is it from the Organicide I already have and tried? I don't want to apply it if it's going to defoliate the little amount of leaves the trees have already. Should I just apply it with a pump sprayer and focus the oil on the trunk, avoiding the leaves?

What you need is soil amendments. Something that will keep the moisture /water/nutrients in your soil so the roots can take them to the leaves.
You can do this by sowing it to the ground and mixing it well with the sand/soil. By doing this you can more or less get the soi pH to a safe level. between 5.2 and 7.2. Add a lot of compost, peat, bark whatever so it can hold moisture. If you do that you can solve many of your problems. It is not enough adding chemical fertilizer to your soil. Those fert will just drip down so fast the roots have no time to absorb them. You need to add compost or any organic materials such as peat, composted pine bark or any soil conditioner you see at the store.
Also you will just get fustrated using your pH meter. It will tell you different readings all the time. Not reliable. What I did to mine was threw it as far away as I can.
Here's what happens when the pH of your soil is:
"if the soil is too acid or too alkaline, the large number of H+ions or OH- ions will interfere with the attachment of fertilizer ions to soil particles. They may cause the fertilizer ions to be held too strongly to the soil particles. If this happens, then the nutrient ions cannot be used by the roots of plants and you say that the nutrients are unavailable to the plants. For example if the soil is too acid, calcium, magnesium, potassium, sulfur and nitrogen are not very available to plants. If the soil is too alkaline, iron, manganese and aluminium are not available to plants. Copper and zinc are not available when the soil is too acid or too alkaline. If the fertilizer ions are held too weakly to the soil particles, then they will be easily washed out of the soil by heavy rain, and will be lost to plants. So if you want to use fertilizers properly, it is best if you can make sure that your soil is slightly acid but not strongly acid or strongly alkaline. If the soil is too alkaline, then many plant nutrients like iron, manganese, boron, copper and zinc will not be very available to plants. "

Thanks Bencelest. Here is a picture of what this Ruby Red looked like on November 12th 2006, almost 6 months ago so it is getting better.

{{gwi:575414}}

And for a very short time I had the right idea to add compost and mulch around under the canopy but someone on here (sorry I thought it was you Bencelest) busted my rear for doing this: (telling me it would cause root rot)

{{gwi:575416}}

I did it initially to get rid of the weeds that were growing right up to the trunk and week by week I extended the mulch out toward the drip line pulling the mulch away from the trunk as the weeds underneath died off.

I think basically I should have stuck with my original idea but instead of pulling the compost and mulch outward, keep it where it was initially, but just build the outer edge till it reached beyond the drip line all covered with mulch like you see here.

Kind of like this. Blue line indicates where the mulch would extend out to at a depth of 3-4 inches of compost top dressed by 1-2 inches of mulch, which is what the above picture has.

{{gwi:575418}}

That's not the mulch I have in mind. Although they may retain water and fertilizer, it will consume nitrogen that is needed by the plant badly when they start decomposing. You could use that as top dressing but what I want you to use are compost that are already decomposted meaning already rutted. The color of this things are black. Even black soil is good to mix with your sandy soil because they were decomposted organic matters. That's what you want organic matters in your soil. You can buy this in store just buy garden soil or peat or what you can find.
It will be impossible to have root rut if you have a very well draining oil. And I am not the one who told you you'll have root rut.
The mulch that you put will not help your plant to improve pH.
I'll give you a hint: It is black in color.
You seem to see already by just adding that top dressing. What more if you add what I am telling about. Up to the drip line mind you. On the drip line is where you will find the most of the roots that are helpful.
Even you can add, steer manure for fertilizer. And they are so cheap. %.99 a bag. put 2 or 3 bags around your plant up to the drip line.
If you do what I tell you you'll se it will triple the buds and the leaves of your plant and most of all the leaves will be dark green. And don't be surprised that they will have flowers with them. then fruit.

Bencelest I think you misunderstood me, I make my own compost and it does look black. That is what is underneath the mulch. There is 3-4 inches of my own compost covered by the 1-2 inches of mulch to retain the moisture.

And yes I will be picking up 3-4 backs of the Black Kow maunure today layed down first and then a few inches of my compost and then topped with mulch. Thanks.

OK. Let's see what happens. Put lots of your compost up to the drip line.

When you buy the black kow fert buy also miracle grow camelia/azealia/ rhododendrum 30/10/10 fertilizer and fertilize your citrus everytime you water in diluted form meaning if the label says 1 tbspn per gal per month and if you water every week use 1/4 tbspn per gallon per week or 1 tbspn per 4 gal per week. That way you constantly giving fertilizer every week and your citrus will appreciate you.
See you in a month and please let us know yourr progress.
Did you get rid of the bugs yet?

I will be updating this with pictures soon. Nothing amazing, but the battle is not over, but I am not getting the amazing results I was expecting, bringing me back to my initial diagnosis of my trees having canker.

Strangely enough, I was at a house in town at a friends house and their once beautiful Tangerine tree that was huge looks like it has the same disease that has attacked my trees. Same circular lesions on the bark with the lighter colored halos which indicate canker.

Hello pkapeckopickldpepprz,

If you want really good advise on your Citrus tree, my mother
is a tree expert, log onto www.sweethomeandgardenchicago.blogspot.com she is linked
with the Chicago Tribune for her expert advise on Gardening
and Trees. I hope this will help you.

Should I send her the link to this thread? I don't see anything on her site about tree tips or Citrus at all other than her trip to Florida where she was amazed by the trees. Not knocking her but she is in Chicago and I am in Florida, 2 totally different growing regions, much different pests/issues here.