Jacklord: could you save some seeds for me?? I'm in Northern Virginia.

Mike

Your greenhouse should provide a temperature rise to extend your growing season about 1 to 2 month on either side of the growing season. You'll see the biggest advantage in spring with the longer days while it is still very cold as you approach equinox. What I did that will work well for you, is insulate the soil surface and in february i used a hair dryer to blow hot air though pipes going down 3 ft deep in the soil. I used CFL 's to heat the air. my fig tree came out earlier and was bearing fruit by early june. A meiwa kumquat tree would do very well along side of your meyer lemon.to.

To put it outside unprotected would probably kill you tree even if its a PT

If you have a brick house you could plant very close to the south wall but you will still have to lean-too green house it to protect against cold air and wind. You will also loose out on about 7 to 8 hours of the 18 hours of solstice sunlight that would make up for the short growing season.

If you place the tree out in the yard you would need to protect it with a make-shift cover as blinkblogger does on this tread. It is near the bottom. pics of frames then covers

Here is a link that might be useful: http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/citrus/msg0122005810811.html

Poncirus trifoliata can easily survive zone 6 winters. I know of several mature trees in zones 5b to 6b here in New England growing outdoors with no protection.

I left 2 of my 4 PT's outside accidentally through a series of 8F nights. The nuclear embryo seedling tree survived with extreme damage. The sexualy fertalized seedling tree died. I have heard from a man down in southern texas the terms horrible when describing the fruits of PT.

My best PT was grow inside during the fall up to winter. AT that time I put it in the basement in front of a window

At 1.5 years I have 10 feet of linear growth on its 3 main trunks and branches. Simply planting one outdoors will take a long time, and I doubt any other citrus hybrid will grow without protection. Much less give you fruit.

On other forums I have heard you state an interest in kumquats. You have connections and know enough to find the 10 degree nameiwa, nippon orangequat ignore indio. Also to get fruit off you meyer lemon you must maintain a minimum temperature of 28F. An owari satsuma does very well down there, and on PT things will go so slow the fruit might last most of the winter where as it must be picked down south 'I am just guess for I don't know enough. I am very new and fairly old to do much experimenting.

Good luck I'm following your progress and readings

Poncirus, I'm surprised your PT was damaged by 8F, was it dormant? In ground or in a container? They are pretty tough when planted in ground up here, even as relatively small trees. If you have multiple seedlings, why not try planting one?

Here's a current picture of my Flying Dragon, planted in late spring 2010. It has never been protected and has not received any winter damage. The tree has seen a low of 3 or 4F.
{{gwi:580352}}
It is ~5.5 ft tall with the water sprout on top. When I planted it it was about the same size (or just a little larger than) the PT seedling in the bottom of the picture.

Here's another local PT example growing at the Arnold Arboretum in Boston since 1980. It is probably around 10 ft tall. These trees have seen lows of at least -8F. I know of two other established trees (both Flying Dragon) that have easily seen temps below -10F in the past decade. This picture is from January and it is still holding onto some of its leaves.
{{gwi:580357}}

Since we're on the subject of edible to semi-edible hardy citrus, here's my Thomasville citrangequat, which is a rooted cutting, that I planted this spring. It will receive significant winter protection, but no supplemental heat, during the winter.
{{gwi:580360}}

Regarding the taste of PT fruit, personally I do not think the taste is that bad. However, the sticky resin and smell are not so fun. In my opinion, because of the awful smell of the juice, they are really mostly for ornamental value and a seed source for rootstock.

MyerMike:

My Thomasville dropped most of its leaves last Winter, but has bounced back in total. It was a rough Winter followed by a rather cold Spring, which I theorize delayed its recovery. In any case, it is presently a deep, lush green with a few small fruits.

My Citrumelos wilt a bit, but there is no major defoliation. Of course, they are 1/2 Trifoliate while the Thomasville is only 1/3.

I recently added a Morton Citrange and an Ichang Papeda to the Lord Estate. Confidence is high.

dave_in_Nova:

If the fruits survive and become viable, you are welcome to some seeds. Cost you a tour of your garden with a brew.

Gentlemen

Take a nice vacation down to hilton head island, Then on the way home stop by Plantfolks, pick up a 7 gal tree for not bad and bring it back. you should get fruit soon. I believe they graft to PT.

Dave I'd take jacklord up on the offer if iI were you, but still get one tree from plantfolks. The seed grown citrangequat should grow faster and stronger than a grafted tree.

I have decided to end my citrus growing after my trees die, although I hope they live long and prosper but there will be no new trees. My main energy is going to figs and blueberries.

May the growth be with you
Steve

Poncirusguy,
I'm not sure you are aware, but Beaufort County SC, where Plantfolks is located, is under Quarantine for Citrus Greening. Unless the situation has changed recently, for all practical purposes, inter-state transport (and/or transport to non-quarantine areas) of trees and plant parts from Beaufort county is prohibited.

Here is a link that might be useful: Quarantine order for Citrus Greening

jacklord,

Of course! The yard is always open for tours.

How does a Negra Modelo sound?

I'll be in NC for a week in Sept and have found a grower down there who has a few Thomasvilles. Hope to get one or two.

Scot_6B

I was not aware of the quarantine. I had always dreamed of passing through and picking up a bloomsweet grapefruit on own roots or a meiwa kumquat on benton citrange or K x R.

The bloomsweet grapefruit is the only citrus that I will consider giving a try if I could find the fruit for seeds.

Global warming is quit real and I will be able to grow some "good tasting" citrus this far north.

Steve

Greeting COLD HARDY CITRUS GROWERS

How have your trees done this winter. As we all know it has been brutal.

Steve

Steve: All snarkiness excluded, your July 30 2012 assertion that "Global warming is quit(e) real" typed in hot Summer is less objectionable than if typed today, considering the brutal Winter which has set a LOT of modern era records in terms of local snowfall measurements and local low temps, so you were wise not to proclaim the G.W. belief today. That being said, my old Bloomsweet GF have faced 14 degrees and had only partial defoliation from that. They faced 18 degrees and lost almost zero leaves. If you still have an interest in getting seeds, I can ship a ripe fruit to you to both sample and get seeds from. If you like lemon flavored GF, they are good eating.

Coping, my citrus faced 14 degrees along with high winds. They had frost cloth and c9 lights and had little to no damage. The wind blew my cloth off the bloomsweet and it took severe damage. All limbs under 1/2" diameter were killed. I grafted a croxton grapefruit on it this summer and it put on 6" of growth. This small croxton graft on my bloomsweet took no damage which surprised me.

How does your bloomsweet compare to grapefruit in terms of cold tolerance?

My new arctic frost satsuma was left unprotected and it was totally defoliated and may have taken more damage, I am still waiting for it to wake up. I thought it would have fared better.

I emailed you i would like a rip fruit to try and try to grow it in ga I with sub of atlanta.

c5tiger: The 3 Bloomsweet GF here are now 20 years old, and they were 17 years past their sell date at Home Depot, (where rookie's like me buy fruit w/o any idea about the importance of WHICH ROOTSTOCK is keeping their tree hopes alive in Winter) when exposed to the 14 degree event w/o any protection. Since the 3 trees never passed 10 ft by 10 ft dimensions, I 'spose that they may be on something other than sour orange. Just wildly guessing. If they were on trifoliate, that would sure help the cold hardiness on old trees. On the other hand, a newly planted Henderson GF on trifoliate sat a few feet away from one of these Bloomsweets during that 14 degree event, and I did quite a bit of work to protect it. Not enough. Dead Henderson. No more gonna do that. Trifoliate was obviously not a magical solution when dealing with a young tree of less than 4 feet. Last Spring I topworked the smallest of the 3 Bloomsweets, using Chandler Red pummelo bark grafts at about 5 feet to 7 feet altitude. The recent 18 degree event caused the unprotected Chandler grafts to defoliate about 70%, but after a few weeks it seems that only a couple slim twigs died back a few inches. New sprouts are now emerging from the Chandlers sitting high up on top of the Bloomsweet branches.I credit the high altitude grafts with imparting greater- than- pummelo cold hardiness from the Bloomsweet branches to the young grafts Just like the Page mandarin grafts done last year at 5 ft to 6 ft on a 6 years old sour orange tree with a 2-1/2" thick trunk. It got pretty good cold protection for the recent 18 degree event, but still lost a few inches at the tops of 3 skinny shoots As opposed to one Page graft done last year on top of a Thomasville Citrangequat old tree at about 8 foot high This grafted scion grew a few leaves last year after the graft took, but did not gain more than a few inches height. When the 18 degrees hit it, it had ZERO protection, but only lost a few of it's 8 to 10 leaves. It is still a beautiful green. I attribute this Page graf't's extra cold hardiness to the old T.C. cold hardiness being imparted to the dinky scion at the high altitude The higher the graft, it seems the more of the r/s's cold hardiness is imparted to the grafted hitchhiker on top..I suppose that your Arctic Frost's publicity/marketing info on the plastic sales tag did NOT have a qualifying statement as to the cold hardiness not being at maximum potential until the tree had grown big over the years. Archie Manning's 2 QB-playing sons did not reach their maximum potential as QB's until way past their high school days.Think biggerer and olderer for your citrus to reach their maximum cold hardiness.

coping

It sounds like you did overall OK with your citrus trees. I am happy to hear so. I was asked by several citrus'ers to let the global warming article die and I agreed. How ever I did think of reviving it with the entry of "I am really awed at the power of these global warming driven ice storms and record setting cold blizzards we have gotten across the mid west and eastern United states". Oh but I promised to let It die.

I argued with a lot of people that it was unwise to expect citrus of any kind to grow in areas like mine with out an already in place greenhouse for backup for the 1 out of 10 years like this one. My green house will be readily put up and taken down. However I will install it in fall and remove it in spring to get more out of my trees.

It sounds like your living in zone 8a you can succeed with the most cold hardy of tasty citrus and get good fruit. Best of all you can plant stone and pome fruit trees too.

Thanks a lot for the Bloomsweet grapefruit offer. I am no longer looking for any variety of citrus. I have found homes for 1 of 3 poncirus trees. I have found a home for 1 sweetlee tree. The meiwa and nagami kumquat tree will become bonzii bushes with no expectation of fruits. I will keep 1 PT and 2 sweetlee trees as rootstock for meiwa and nagami grafting. The remaining PT will be planted outside and the sweetlee will be grown as a sweetlee.

I have learned so much on this forum that help with other plants that I can say that growing these trees have payed for them selve even if none survive. I have also learned that the only thing harder to grow other than citrus is the PAPAYA tree. don't do it.

Steve

This past January I've seen colder temps here than the last 4 or 5 years. Numerous drops to the mid teens (F) and at least one night down to 9F or so.

In the yard my citrangequat (3 years old) completely defoliated, and some "experimental" seed-grown madarin trees also completely defoliated, and lost most small branches.

Inside the greenhouse my Satsuma mandarin trees are undamaged, also I have some potted kumquats, Meyer lemons in the greenhouse that are undamaged. The coldest temp recorded in the greenhouse was about 16F on the coldest night.

I also have some various palm trees that were completely defoliated and spear pull.

Picture of a seedling grapefruit a couple miles from my house after 14 degree weather, 30 years old and 15' or more tall. It defoliated but is flushing back out now.

Our all time record low was 9 degrees in 2001, it probably took a substantial amount of damage but obviously survived.

For the record, Thomasville citrangequat is trifoliate x orange =citrange. Citrange is crossed with a kumquat to give the Thomasville. Other citrangequats exist. Citrangequats are therefore 1/4 trifoliate, but being 1/2 kumquat makes them more cold hardy than some PT hybrids.

One cannot predict how cold hardy PT hybrids will be. I have a cit-triwasha, 3/4 PT, 1/4 mandarin. It partially defolialted in temperatures of 22 to 24. Nearby, a triwasha was undamaged. as well as a Swingle citrumelo. These last two are 1/2 PT.

Has any ones 7 a or colder thomasville citrangequat survive the winter of 2013-2014

Steve

Steve, I don't know about citrangequats, but locally here most all the citrumelos and citrandarins died way back to either the ground or to a few feet up the largest trunks. Really a bad winter.

Now I planted a few citrumelos at my office in DC and they don't seem to show any damage. Probably a 7B microclimate there.

Jacklord, did you end up losing your Citrangequat after winter of 13-14?

Curious.

McGarrett

I to am interested in the outcome of your citrangequat

I am also curious of your kumquat tree you started from seed a while back

Trace How is your citrangequat tree doing

Few curled leafs but it doing fine. I have found they are more fussy thank typical citrus but not as fussy as kumquat. My kumquats are the only trees that lost leafs this year and treated them the same.

Thanks Steve

Trace

In a few week when its warmer I'm going to plant my thomasville in the south side of my yard. Its not doing much of naything in the pot no new growth just some leaf curl and drop not bad. It seams to be more fussy than citrus.

Trace

Hey Boys,

Yes the Polar Vortex took out my hardy citrus except for one Citrumelo. And it ain't looking too good after this winter.

• My thomasville in Zone 6B croaked last winter.Completely dead after 11 years and 2 seasons of 40+ fruit.

They survive a "normal" winter around here just fine. But the last two have been ferocious.

An ounce of prevention goes a long way......so they say. That the T.C. has significant cold hardiness does not make it 'unfreezable' enough. If a wide 4 foot tall circular fence using 2" X 4" cheap wire fencing would have encircled the mature T.C. and had been filled with dry leaves and a plastic cover to keep rain out, only the unfenced top would have frozen to death. In Spring the fence can be removed and the leaves fall down to become a mulch ring around the tree. It can grow back quite well from the 4 foot tall live trunk as sprouts emerge. Two feet thick (or thicker where needed) leaf blankets that 100% enclose every leave/twig/branch/trunk in all directions can buy a lot of temperature insurance. Bags of throwaway leaves line the streets in Fall in some neighborhoods. Save some for temperature insurance. And Spring mulch.

Copingwithclay

That is exactly how I am keeping my in ground fig trees alive in in zone 6b. They sailed effortlessly through our -12 F winters and grew well last spring and should pop out soon this spring. I cover my figs to protect to 2 feet from the soil line.

I grow the Thomasville and other s in mass, I cover them with a bucket of water, they do great......Thomasville is ripe Dec...it is nice

Pics of Satsumas I grow

I had

Frank, what do you mean you cover them with a bucket of water?

Cory

Hi sorry

I have 3 groups of trees in my yard all citrus. Each group is cover by plastic, blanket and tarps, a bucket of water 33 gallons in center....nothing has died from cold, moles yes lol

Both my poncirus trifoliatas sailed through the winter of -12F; --8F,several below 0F. The in ground tree will loose about 1/3 of its not hardened fall growth spurts. The 30 gallon, 275 pound PT last grew in June. It will loose less than 1 % to 5%. The sad fact about growing citrus Meyer lemon trees and citrus Tangerine trees is that they are proving to be easier to grow than my Cherry trees, Plumb trees, Apple trees, hardy Kiwi vines: Seascape strawberries. My hardy chicago figs do better than my citrus trees. As for my kumquat trees, they are Fortunella and don't count.

Steve

Thanks Frank, now I understand. Interesting. Do you ever heat the water or is the large mass enough? Do you keep the wrapped plants in a sunny, protected spot or a more shaded but protected spot so they don't overheat on warm days? When do you usually wrap them, and when do you unwrap them? I guess you have a frame that holds the blankets and plastic and tarps? Do you wrap the trunks separately at all?

Cory

Hi the trees are in 1 open enclosure, I do heat the water with a small fish heater...although I doubt it is needed, the ground never freezes in the enclosure. It also there no light for 3 months or so, some years I let them get light and remove the tarp. In late Feb.... I am just starting to now

I think if I was going to do it all over, I would plant more early satsumas......

The Thomasville aren't great until early winter

Frank, this is very interesting. How big are your trees? Can you post a picture?

Cory

4 4feet or so....I can we what I can find they are still covered

Thanks Frank. I would like to see them covered too and the location if you have a picture. I might like to try this.

Cory

I Will see what I can get for pics

Anybody know how to get rid of the moless in the winter. They are more deadly than the cold, the destroy the bark

Thanks Frank. I don't know much about moles as I haven't had that problem, thank goodness. It is probably because the ground stays unfrozen under the covering. I remember learning not to put down a winter mulch until the ground freezes so that rodents don't live under the mulch and chew on the bark and roots. Probably the same with the moles, but you can't let the citrus tree roots freeze. I hope someone has ideas to deter the moles for you. That must be frustrating after discovering how to protect your trees in such a cold climate.

Cory

Yes thanks, they cheers up a kunquat tree this year

Chewed

A guy I know here in the Portland area had Thomasville Citrangequat for years and the cold didn't hurt it but the moles got it. I've had PT for years and I like the fruit. I am growing an Ichang lemon but it never flowers or fruits. I've got the Mandarin Orange type Owari Satsuma and sometimes I bring it in for the winter but it usually only a week or two when it's brutal. It tastes really good.

JohN S
PDX OR

Does PT mean poncirus trifoliata and how do you eat the fruit.

Yes. PT = Poncirus Trifoliata. I mixed some in with other dishes and some I ate by itself. It does have seeds, and it's a powerful taste. If you like bland fruit, I wouldn't recommend it. Part of it is that some friends have recommended PT as a rootstock, so PT is a "beach head" in the citrus area that may or may not develop by grafting on, say, yuzu, or Thomasville Citrangequat. We have had new record heat here each year for the last 3 years. I'm 52 and I've never seen something like this here, so it could develop that way too.

John S
PDX OR

Do your Thomasville plants lose some leaves during winter? It's always an hybrid with Poncirus than loses leaves during winter..