Hi Mike, sounds like you feel it's helping, yet you're not using it consistently. Hmmm, so maybe a better question would be...When you've finished your current bottle, do you think you'll buy it again?

I'm not sure I'd like to slow down the growth of my trees (yet) as they are pretty young, but I would like to keep them on the smaller side, and I have to balance that against the potential advantages. Do you see any difference in growth?

Mary

Hi Manderin.

I must say, 'Al' would be the one to ask on this one since he has had much more history with it than I, and recommended it to me.

I can only share what I have seen and remember, but it could only be my observation.
I do know that my plants were more resistant to pest without any help from me, but that could of been a fluke, who knows?

I lost touch with the stuff once I broke my foot, and have just started to use it again. I can say I have experienced more fruiting, flowering, bud growth, and more compact trees with regular use in that short time, which is why I am back to using it again.

I have seen Al's plants, flawless, and I hope to keep mine looking as close as they can like his.

So what Al does, I do:-)

Mike

Mike, I value your observations as well as Al's and hope my citrus look like yours when they grow up! :-) I'm sorry to hear about your foot...I hadn't been around for quite awhile for similar reasons and my trees, well, enough said. In a word, it stinks...I hope you heal quickly!

Hi Al,
I'm a bit confused about your formula. You say you use 2 - 2-1/2 tbsp of Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 per 2 gallons of water .
Isn't the weekly rate1 tsp per gallon, thus 2 tsp per 2 gallons?
Also, if one wants to turn one's fertilizer from 3:1:2 to 3:1:3, to reduce vegetative rate, does that mean:
For a weekly application of fertilizer per gallon of water:
1/2 tsp Foliage pro
1 tsp Pro -tekt.

Thank you so much,

Bob

im confused when you say lowering the nitrogen..... arnt u just raising the k and just leaving the n and p the same? or is something here happening that im missing?
very intresting though that this formula can be used to limit plant size but still enable it to produce fruit.

thanks chris

It's been 15 months since I originally asked the question...I've been using the maintenance dose written on the label, which is 1/4-1/2 tsp. per gallon. I have nothing to offer except casual observation. When I received new trees, I would transplant into gritty or 5:1:1. I didn't fertilize for 2 weeks but I did use the Pro-tekt, I thought new trees acclimated better in that there was minimal leaf loss or yellowing compared to previous new trees. It didn't prevent spider mites. I though the leaves were a little greener. I will keep using it. It does nudge the water slightly toward more alkaline, I add a little extra vinegar.

Hi mandarin. I was intrigued by what Al said in the last paragraph of his post:

"Because it's a K supplement, you can almost literally turn your 3:1:2 ratio fertilizers into a 3:1:3 ratio, which in many cases where reduced vegetative growth is desirable, can be used to the growers advantage by cutting your normal rate to reduce available N w/o significant concern about other nutritional deficiencies. So in that regard, it can add versatility to your present 3:1:2 ratio fertilizer stratagem."

I was wondering if you / Al / or anyone did apply it and if so what was the dosage/ combination of fertilizer to achieve the 3:1:3 ratio?

Hi Bob, Sorry I don't know the answer to your question, I'm not trying to adjust the 3:1:2 ratio found in Foliage Pro, but I'm sure Al would know if he sees this. I'm also interested in knowing the answer, as slowing growth might be advantageous at this point.

Digging up this old thread to add anecdotal, not scientific information.

I have 12 citrus trees in 1/2 wine barrels. I attempted to make 5-1-1 mix for all of them. The trees did so-so, and it's been a couple of years. Two trees actually died, and a few of them were sickly.

I decided to try Pro-Tekt a couple of months ago because I was running out of ideas. So I have no idea why or if it has been helping, but my trees are all much healthier. One tree I was sure was a goner is staging a comeback. Another tree that just sat around and never did anything decided to take off. So I have no idea if Pro-Tekt is responsible or - if it is - WHY. Maybe it just fixed a pH problem? Maybe it's working as advertised? I have no idea, but it's relatively cheap as I only use a tiny bit in my fertigation routine

I've been using it on one tree that recently transplanted into the ground and that tree doesn't seem to be improving. I'll keep it up, though - maybe it's just a long case of transplant shock.

Anyone else using it? Experiences?

Hoping commenting on an old post will get me a beginner's question answered. I bought some ProTekt yesterday, and am confused as to whether to water the ground with it, or spray it on the leaves? Would pouring it over the plant with a watering can work? And lastly, is it ok if it gets on my new buds?

Its intended for both. I use it mostly like a folier spray, if you have small trees or only a few you can mix it up in a spray bottle or if you have more and/or larger trees use a lawn and garden sprayer I have this one https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000E28UQU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I am also trying to add it to my watering routine but find myself forgetting more often than not. I don't believe it will affect the new buds but I am not positive. I got it to use as an emulsifier/sticker for when spraying with neem and HO but am curious about using it in combination with my normal feeding routine. I don't think it would stick very well to the leaves with a watering can but you can just add it to the water as well per the directions and it should suck it up through the roots.

WEll, I'll be..I don't know how anyone finds these older threads but I am glad they do...It's been some time while using Pro-tek and after all this time I can tell you that the roots and leaves to my plants are very much healthier..It's not in my mind for sure...I notice a sharp difference in turgidity and in bug populations..I also notice a much better developed root system and compared to when not using it. I use this stuff on one of the same two exact jades and the one I used with the Pro-tek far outpaced the one without...Call it placebo or not, but my plants are benefiting while I think they are.lol

It depends on what you're using it for. If as a K (potassium) supplement, you might get SOME benefit from foliar applications, but by FAR, the most efficient pathway for nutrients making their way into the plant is via roots. Foliar feeding is grossly over-hyped insofar as its effectiveness.

If you're applying it for the silicon content (which is why I use it), foliar applications will be very ineffective. This is because silicon is immobile in the plant, so in order for it to be effective, it must be present in the nutrient stream at all times so it can become a part of cell walls as cells are forming.

Al

Great! Root feeding is easier so I'm glad that's what you would recommend! Thank you!

Al, my (4 to 5 feet tall) trees are in ground, and have bubblers that water them twice a week, for an hour or so each. I have turned the watering down a bit, and have started adding 5 gallons of water with 7 spoons of Jack's once a week per tree. I have also been sprinkling some AS in the vicinity once a week. The trees are showing their first growth flush in 4 years and several buds for the first time since planting since I started doing this in early February. I wanted to add the Pro-tekt to help the plant fight CLM as well as scale. Should I just add the Pro-tekt to my Jack's solution at the rate of two teaspoons a gallon? You say it must be present at all times, would once a week watering do that? Thanks so much, everyone, for the benefit of your advice!

Thank you for your expertise Al, I will not bother with the folier feeding and add it to my watering schedule instead.

I've been using ProTekt since last summer, but not consistently. For those of you who use it, do you add it every time you fertilize? I have not given much to my trees for the last couple of months, but should probably start.

These are all anecdotal and provide no scientific basis for efficacy. Here is some science:

http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/2001-vol-114/94-97%20(MATICHENKOV).pdf

http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1999-vol-112/5-8%20(MATICHENKOV).pdf

Al, you misunderstand. My intent was to provide some scientific basis for the use of the supplement, not to "pooh pooh"..

Vladimir, I read the abstract and skimmed the paper, and it supports the application of silicon to the soil. Thank you for adding that, it helped clarify and validate what Al was saying!

kcandmilo, that was the purpose of my last post.

that's the way I took it, Vladimir.

thanks for asking about root vs. foliar, because I had the same question.

I ordered some DG Neem (never used it before), and I have read that people use ProTekt with it, so I am wondering how vital it is for spraying the neem. Or does it take the place of adding soap?

It takes the place of adding the soap. The only reason I ordered it in the first place was to use with the neem as an emulsifier, but I am glad it is useful on its own as well.

I use it as a neem oil emulsifier and as a nutritional supplement to FP 9-3-6.

I'm not sure where the idea that ProTeKt is an appropriate emulsifier came from? Here is something I wrote in a thread about neem oil that you should find helpful if you want the best results when using neem and many other insecticides.

pH is based on a logarithmic scale from 1 to 14. Where a pH of 7 is
neutral, a pH of 6 is 10 times more acidic than a pH of 7. Many
insecticides are sensitive to pH levels because of something called
hydrolysis, which is a chemical process whereby larger molecule with
insecticidal properties are broken (cleaved) into smaller (ionic)
particles that may lack any insecticidal properties when they recombine
with other smaller particles. How much effect hydrolysis has on
insecticides depends on the insecticide's chemistry, water pH, water
temp, exposure to sunlight, and how long the mixture has been in the
spray container.

Neem oil is susceptible to alkaline hydrolysis, which means that a pH
greater than 7.0 causes degradation, so adjusting your spray water to a
pH from 5.5 - 6.5 for neem products is beneficial; whereas some
pesticides are affected by acid hydrolysis at pH levels below 7.0, so
they should be mixed with water adjusted to pH levels from 7.5 - 8. In
either case, the sooner you use the spray mixture, the more effective it
will be. White vinegar or citric acid (from a wine-making supply store)
are very effective at reducing water's pH.

Too, ProTeKt 0-0-3 raises pH, so you probably would not want to mix it with neem.

Al

Al, the idea comes direct from Dyna Grow....the instructions on the Neem bottle itself are to use 1/2 a teaspoon of Pro-TeKt as an emulsifier. I've been using it for a couple years now.

Josh

Thanks, Josh. I'm going to write Dave a note & see what he has to say about what I said. It doesn't make sense (to me and at this point) to use a pH raising ingredient as an emulsifier for a product that is susceptible to alkaline hydrolysis. Maybe I'm not getting something right. I learned about the alkaline hydrolysis issue many years ago from Greenhouse Grower's Benchrunner Newsletter. I'll post his reply.

Al

Thanks for researching this, Al.
Depending upon the response, I may go back to using a castile soap as my emulsifier.

Josh

about how much castile do you use with the neem?

A few drops in a quart of water.

Josh

Al, I too appreciate you looking into it since I have been using it as Josh does..

Mike

Thanks. I sent an email to Dyna-Grow, so I'll likely get a reply on Mon. I sent it to cust service because I couldn't find Dave Neal's direct email, but I just found it a few seconds ago; so, if I get a canned reply from cust serv. that doesn't answer the question, I'll redirect the question to Dave.

Hope you guys had a good wknd.

Al

Hi guys... I'll be listening for your response Al, since I use it too!!

As always, thanks Al!!!

hi Josh. Mike!!!!

;-)

laura

Hi Laura...I am so happy to see you. Thank you for stopping by and my we send our love to you...!

I have to say Dyna-Grow's reply to my original question was disappointing, and their failure to reply to the added pressure I used in my most recent communication in hope that they would elaborate was even more disappointing. The message string follows these short comments. Remember to read it from the bottom up so it makes chronological sense. Go to the bottom of the message string now.

Read me third: Hi, Alex - It's widely known that vehicle pH and acid/alkaline
hydrolysis can play a significant role in determining efficacy of a
high % of insecticidal solutions. Shouldn't you (or Dave) be able to
offer guidance re whether or not alkaline hydrolysis is in fact a
consideration when using neem oil...... since most tapwater is
alkaline and Pro-TeKt increases pH somewhat? I'd hate to go back
into a forum setting and suggest all is ok based only on the idea
you've been recommending the practice for years.

Also, dish soap/detergent solutions are known to be very hard on
cuticular waxes and (if it gets into the soil) lipid membranes in
roots. I'm a little disappointed because I was expecting a reply
that addressed my question directly. I told the folks at the forum
I'd contact Dyna-Grow and post the reply. Are you sure that's the
reply you want me to go with? If so, I'm going to have to offer my
own commentary that essentially says the reply didn't address the
question. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I value my own
credibility in forum settings.

Read me second: On 03/20/2017 01:50 PM, Alex J. Sevilla
wrote:
Dear AL,
We have been recommending the use of Pro-TeKt as an emulsifier for years. The amount that you use as an emulsifier is minimal and will increase the pH slightly. We also recommend plain dish soap as an emulsifier. We have never heard of any issue from users of our Neem oil due to alkalinity. As to the information from Greenhouse Grower's Benchrunner Newsletter, we cannot comment.
Best Regards,
Alex J. Sevilla
Vice President, Sales & Marketing
DYNA-GRO™ Nutrition Solutions
2775 Giant Road
Richmond, CA 94806
T (800) DYNA-GRO
C (305) 951-7826
alex@dyna-gro.com

Read me first: -----Original Message-----
From: Al F [mailto:@mi.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2017 10:40 AM
To: alex@dyna-gro.com
Subject: Dyna-Gro Web Site Inquiry ProTeKt as an emulsifier
From: Al F <@mi.net>
Subject: ProTeKt as an emulsifier
Message Body:
Hi, Dave. We've exchanged messages on other occasions. I've been active at the Garden Web/Houzz site since 2005. My question arises from a discussion about neem oil that makes me question my own information.
Folks have said that labeling on either Pro-TeKt or Neem Oil recommends Pro-TeKt as an emulsifier for neem oil. My understanding is that neem oil is susceptible to alkaline hydrolysis and as such should be mixed in water/emulsifier that was in the 5.5-6.5 pH range. Given that Pro-TeKt raises the pH of water to some degree, is it a good choice or is my information bad? Since most tapwater from municipality sources is well above neutral, shouldn't it be acidified before adding neem oil? I THINK I read it in Greenhouse Grower's Benchrunner Newsletter several years ago, but I'm not certain of this. Comments, please?
--
This e-mail was sent from a contact form on the Dyna-Gro website (http://dyna-gro.com)

Thank you for looking into that Al, I wish they would have had a better response. I only use Pro-TeKt with Neem because the bottle recommends it. I was fearful of using the wrong kind of dish soap, harming my plants. I didn't consider that they may steer me wrong. Do you find a need for an emulsifier when using Neem?

Thank you for looking into it Al. I suspect that the reason their answer was brief is because the guy who answered did not know enough to reply to your comment directly. I'm willing to bet that you know more about this stuff than most of the guys that work there answering questions. I wonder what would be the most effective given the limitations of dish soap and potentially Pro-Tekt. I have used it (ProTekt) as an emulsifier when spraying for bugs this winter. I am not sure how effective it was since I did not compare it to using dish soap. What I have found effective with spraying this winter is to add not only neem, but a bit of HO and alcohol. The addition of HO seem to help the neem emulsify further. Again, no comparisons made, but it did seem to work for a while until the few that escaped reproduced...

Laura, what is HO?

Probably H2O2, hydrogen peroxide...?

Josh

Horticultural Oil

I just found out about a neem oil product called Trilogy that is formulated with an emulsifier, so you don't have to add Pro Tekt or any other emulsifier. See this: http://extension.colostate.edu/topic-areas/insects/insect-control-horticultural-oils-5-569/

Here is the label for Trilogy that says it can be used on citrus: http://www.certisusa.com/pdf-labels/Trilogy-label.pdf

Great discussion and information - thank you all! - just a comment - by habit, when I have been spraying with a neem (or other HO) mix, I have always agitated the mixture [shake vigorously] and added/used hot water. This appears to be workign for me rather well; however, any leftovers settle rather quickly. I have not tried Pro-Tekt.

An emulsifier is necessary in order for the oil to spread completely over all of the surfaces of the plant in a thin film. I, too have used it without an emulsifier and was careful to agitate it well before and during use but found that the oil had a tendency to pool on surfaces.

By the way, horticultural oil made from petroleum contains emulsifiers.

Before I had Pro-TeKt, I used Dr. Bronner's castile soap, a NON-detergent soap, as an emulsifier. I also had used Murphy's Oil Soap. Both worked well.

Josh

I make my own cold-process bar soap, and was planning of making some liquid castile. Perhaps I can use that in place of the Pro-TeKt.

The reply below is to my second effort seeking clarification. I'd say that Alex's reply supports my contention that neem oil is susceptible to alkaline hydrolysis upon being mixed with water/emulsifier with a pH higher than neutral (7.0). You'll get best results if you use deionized/distilled water + a nonionic surfactant like Hi-Yield's Spreader/Sticker, at a pH of 5.5 - 6.5.This means that some acidification might be required.

BTW - (referring to Alex's comment about smothering insects below) if you're looking for a suffocating spray, you might as well use HOs. Neem's primary value is in its prevention of maturation in current generations of insects and reproduction disruption of mating insects, preventing future generations from occurring.

Also, even though household detergents and dish soaps have some insecticidal properties, they remain poor choices because they act as solvents on the natural waxes in leaf cuticles and root lipid membranes. Using potassium based soaps from palm/coconut/olive oil are much better choices if you must use a soap. I would choose an insecticidal soap, specifically formulated for use on plants. Murphy's Oil Soap and Castille's Oil Soap are also better than household detergents or dish soap ...... and BTW - there is nothing special about Ivory Dishsoap. ;-)

Al

Dear Al,

Azadirachtin,
the active ingredient in Neem Oil, starts to breakdown in the mixing
tank when the pH is alkaline. This may be an issue if the solution is
not used immediately. Pure Neem Oil is known to clog the pours of
insects and basically suffocate them. When Dyna-Gro recommends the use
of a small amount of Pro-TeKt or dish soap as an emulsifier, it is
because it works and we have never had any issues.

Everyone
knows the benefits of Neem Oil. Dyna-Gro sells 100% Pure Neem Oil that
is cold pressed and from the freshest harvest available. Dyna-Gro sells
Neem Oil as a leaf polish, and cannot directly recommend its
insecticidal properties due to labeling constraints. I hope this
addresses your concerns, and feel free to post this response on your
forum.

Best Regards,

Alex J. Sevilla

Vice President, Sales & Marketing

DYNA-GRO™ Nutrition Solutions

2775 Giant Road

Richmond, CA 94806

T (800) DYNA-GROC (305) 951-7826

I had long given up on neem oil and purely rely on hort oil (Bonides). Home made Neem oil pesticide is nothing but trouble for some plants. The amount of damage it can do is just not worth it. I have had a cestrum nocturnum react badly. A gardenia that dropped half its leaves and a Tabarnaemontana leaves that just turned mush. So far with citrus I did not see such severe reactions though. Anyway, I never seen such problems with hort oil and seems to me equally effective and pretty safe. Probably something like Trilogy that Vladimir mentioned above is a better concoction.

Soap does not emulsify neem oil very well and tends to separate very quickly. So spraying with it sometimes delivers soap or oil even if shaken/stirred well constantly. The only reliable way I found it would remain in suspension for a while is to run the mix through a blender first.

Al, is there enough alkaline hydrolysis of neem oil (when Pro-Tekt is used) to significantly adversely affect its insecticidal action?

I think alkaline hydrolysis will affect azadirachtin in neem oil. I could not find any definitive article on it particularly. So any beneficial effects of azadirachtin could be compromised - like its effect on insect life cycle and fungicidal effects. The positive benefits of the oil itself should not be compromised. So it should still be able to smother and kill adult pests.

This is one interesting article I found on alkaline hydrolysis that may be of interest. Does not specifically mention neem. But basically corroborates what Al said about it earlier.

Also, as Al said a non-ionic emulsifier would be a better choice for neem oil. They are expensive and found a few on the net. Amleo has one for sale.

EDIT: The article linked above is a Ad for a commercial product Nutrol - but I thought info presented should be of interest.