You said "My biggest concern is that I'm applying it to fruit trees (edible) and also grown in a container."

That is the same concern I would have with a systemic..I to have used the product on my roses and it is but I prune so there are no rose hips to eat!!! I don't have any personal experience with something topical or organic, but I am sure it is out there.

My understanding is that Spinosad is a systemic insecticide. This means that it must be ingested by the insects to be effective - as opposed to a "contact" insecticide which kills on contact.

Spinosad should kill anything that eats your plants and have minimal impact on anything that doesn't chew on them (beneficial insects).

If what you're looking for is a systemic insecticide with a higher residual than spinosad then I don't know of one (but I'm no expert). I would assume that anything that lasts a really long time would also have a very long pre-harvest interval and be more likely to have toxicity issues. Everything I've read on spinosad says it is "practically non-toxic" to all mammals. So far I've been very happy with its performance (alternated with neem in lower temperatures and potassium salts of fatty acids, etc).

Let us know if you find something else that you like and how it works out. I'm particularly interested in something that can help in my war on mites :(

get some fish emulsion and mix about 1 part FE to about 10 parts water(doesnt have to be exact) into a spray bottle. Spray every few weeks in the morning or evening. No more pests especially mites, infact it kills red mites on contact. Several people here do this including myself with wonderful results. it is a bit stinky and you could attract some cats.

@mksmth, thanks for the formula. I was going to get the fish emulsion so I''ll give it a try. Are mites and leafminers the same? If not, do you think the FE formula will rid/kill leafminers?

@redshirtcat - hmmm... I'm not sure? I've never used spinosad as a systemic; but as a foliar spray. Or is that the same thing? Can I water my fruit trees and veggies with spinosad as I do with neem oil when I use neem systemically? If so, I may just do that instead of trying the Bayer.

I also noticed that the leaves aren't as green as they use to be. Kind of on the pale-green side. Is there anything I can do to help it get green-up again?

SO glad I posted this before opening up the bottle. Bums me out when I do something only to read up later on here that it was a no-no. :(

I'm not trying to use spinosad to kill spider mites (it tickles them) though it supposedly does have good activity against non-predatory mites. I was just letting yodiana know that I'd be interested if she found something systemic that works vs mites since she/he is investigating systemics. (Imidacloprid has 0 activity against mites btw).

I do use spinosad to combat sawfly larvae on my roses and leafminers and caterpillers on my citrus/tomatoes. As I mentioned above I find it to be very effective for those purposes.

Thanks for the tip mksmith but I've tried just about every type of combination of oils/emulsions/watersprays/soaps/etc and I'm still losing new growth to mites. I'll probably start moving toward the commercial miticides that UFL suggests if they keep robbing me of new growth.

As to whether or not spinosad constitutes a "systemic" insecticide: It was my understanding that systemic insecticides were those that could move around in the plant. I guess the distinction you are pointing out is that there is a difference between "translaminar" and "systemic." The former being a chemical which can move about and be stored in leaf tissue but is not transported readily in the vascular system. Good to know, I hadn't known there was a difference. I thought that "anti-feedent that is absorbed by the plant" meant "systemic."

That being said since we're discussing it I should note that as a result of the conversation I looked around and found a paper discussing spinosad being used as a systemic drench on tomatoes where it had some effect. I hasten to note that I didn't mean to use it as a drench, just happened upon the article as a result of your previous post and looking around at the difference between the two. The trial in the paper is extremely limited (to tomatoes in rockwool).

But important classification and semantic issues aside: back to Imidacloprid.

I see in the article that yodinana linked that they are talking about citrus leaf miners but I read in various places that Imidacloprid has no effect on Lepidoptera? Which is odd because other extension offices suggest Imidacloprid for citrus leaf miner as well. So now I'm confused again.

What are you trying to control for with the systemic? Scale? Aphids? I find those to be easy to combat compared to other problems... maybe psyllids?

>> What are you trying to control for with the systemic?
Yodianna: >>> My citrus tree (Bearss Lime) has leafminers
@Redshirt, I thought Yodianna wants to use it against leafminers. It seems we're mixing too different topics together. Wow, it does surprise me you are having such a difficult fight with mites on a citrus -- is it a huge in-ground tree? I've had some as well on one container citrus tree, but finally got it under control just with oils/sprays. I could not shake them from one of my roses, so I pruned back all the rose foliage and soaked it with oil (three times, couple weeks apart) and I think it's finally under control as all the new foliage looks good.

@Yodianna: Leaf miners and mites are not he same, Redshirt is looking for help with a different pest. Yes the Imidacloprid (Bayer product you mentioned) is now the recommended product for Citrus by the UC IPM to help fight against CLM. Yes it will work on your lime in the container. Please note: this will NOT make any significant change to the CLM damage already visible in your tree. Those things can do their work and be gone fairly quickly.

The Bayer for roses you currently own is twice the concentration (if I recall correctly) of Imidacloprid plus major nutrients. If so, I'm almost positive you can just use it in half the dosage suggested on the Bayer for Fruits label. Or just do it correctly and keep the roses for your roses and only use the fruit one for the citrus.

The UC IPM article is clear, application timing is important 1) to avoid when pollinators are present, 2) to ensure uptake before leafminers are expected to arrive, and 3) for sufficient time before harvest. It does suggest using in conjunction with Neem oil, though that alone has limited effectiveness, it is worth applying as a deterrent. Again, timing important. You may be able to substitute the Neem Oil and use FE instead for this point, which may also help green up your leaves (a little, maybe, depends ;-). The reason citrus leaves are not deep dark green varies based on several factors, so a picture is needed to help be sure. Likely cause w/o pictures? Needs nitrogen or iron.

IMO it's not worth applying the systemic if you aren't in a heavy CLM area and if you have a mature healthy tree. For an organic approach you can cover/box the tree with fine mesh during the expected infestation period (probably for two months this coming Fall). Your situation and your choices differ from mine. I used the Bayer product on some of my smaller citrus (container and 1 in-ground) that would decline if suffering a bad CLM infestation. I think the UC IPM guideline used 1 month as a baseline for absorption rate? for a smaller container tree it will be much faster than that.

Please don't quote me on the above without reading the UC IPM articles closely as I studied the article a couple months ago and am recalling without reviewing it. Either way you should (continue to) do your own due diligence.

Good luck!

Sorry, lets just ignore mites. My initial 1-line question about a systemic vs mites has been blown into something else.

Wow, thanks all! Had to read everyone's posts a few times and looked up a lot of the terms but boy am I ever appreciative.

@rhizo_1, thank you for outlining for me which pests require a systemic insecticide and which ones require a biological pesticide. I took notes - "S"ystemic for sucking pests. "B"iological pesticide for "B"iting (chewing) pests. Now only if I can remember which pest does what. It has been a challenge for me to find out which pests I'm battling and unfortunately I don't usually notice until they've done a good amount of damage. By then, the plant is pretty infested.

This is my first year gardening and I started the season kind of late (early May). I realize its pointless to use a treatment that won't affect the culprit, I just wished that I had started "gardening" during the dormancy period so I could've taken preventative measures I keep reading about (or maybe I wouldn't because I had no clue of the challenges until now?). Nonetheless, I figure if I didn't use the correct treatment then at least it'll prevent whatever it was intended for. Wrong mind-set, I know. I'm learning to be more conscientious about the beneficial insects, birds, pollinators, etc (reason why I spray at night) but its so frustrating at times. Given the proper timing and usage, would you use the Bayer product on your plants/trees with edibles?

@redshirtcat, I guess I am looking for something systemic. But only if its effective in battling the pests I'm fighting and doesn't have any health concerns with edibles. I didn't know I had a mite issue before this post; but I discovered mites (or aphids) on my tomatoes and peppers last night. Grrrr.... I've used neem oil and spinosad on my roses with success; but with edibles, I'd like to try the FE. Which commercial miticide are you referring to? I thought both neem and spinosad were commercial products, no?

@cebury, phew! Thank you for clarifying my original post. My citrus tree that's affected with the leafminer is a "new" tree. I got it from Home Depot a couple weeks ago and noticed a few of the leaves were damaged when I bought it but didn't think it would get worse (and it was the last dwarf tree in that variety). I don't think I am in a heavy CLM (leafminer?) area and I'm hesitant to use the Bayer Citrus due to the timing and with it being edibles. The package instruction also says that you can only use it once a year so I would prefer to use it with all my trees next season. Any idea when that should be? I'm still trying to figure out when I'm suppose to use dormant sprays (copper and sulfer). I've never heard of boxing or covering a tree? Where can I find the fine mesh? Do you only cover mature trees? Is there a resource I can refer to find "expected infestation periods" for all the insects and pests. I can't imagine it getting worse. Ugh. Again, thank you SO much for your input.

@All - The tag (with tree details and care instructions) that hung off one of the branches read "Dwarf Bearss Lime," but then last night I noticed a sticker on the container read, "Dwarf Lime Calamondin." I googled "calamondin" and its suppose to be an orange?

Oh brother! :)

Yodianna,where are you located?

You (we) should address your "biggest concern" first, since it affects how you proceed from there. Is the systemic safe for edibles? That is somewhat debatable but still a polarizing topic in and of itself as there is no yes/no answer you can take with absolute certainty. It will have to be your judgment call.

Others here know much more regarding pesticides than I, so I'll keep it light. Here goes:

Imidacloprid is a poison. It is not safe for humans nor pests to eat. However, it has recently been approved and available retail for us home gardeners to use on certain fruits and vegetables (at the stated amounts and frequency) and is considered "safe" by those who produced it and the government agencies that approved it. As with many other pesticides/herbicides, it is being used in other countries for some time before here in the U.S. Some research has shown that Citrus fruits take up Imidacloprid poorly, which is why it is approved to use at a low dose and limited frequency. The earlier it is used before harvesting fruit (like right after the tree has flowered and no more flowers exist), the safer it is for consumption.

If in a heavy CLM area (like Southern CA) the damage to young (So the question you need to ask yourself is: do I trust the manufacturers and the government agencies who tell me this systemic is safe for me to use on citrus (edibles)?
Or should I take an alternate approach to protecting the trees from CLM and take whatever damage happens?

Some people will adamantly answer the first question as NO. That everything is directed by money, so companies don't care about our safety and government agencies are paid by said companies and government=stupid people, so definitely NO. Others trust the companies, our agencies which are directed to protect our healthy, and the other country's agencies, and will use whatever product is available on the shelf. I'm about in the middle of the spectrum and I have used the product on certain citrus and feel safe enough to feed the fruit to my own kids.

There are only two alternate approaches I've seen discussed, one is to create a frame/box and buy a very fine mesh at the local hardware store -- basically you are attempting to keep out tiny moths from the tree when the CLM is scheduled to arrive in your area. Yes it will look silly and reduced airflow may cause other problems you have to be watchful for, but it is temporary. The other method is to alternate spraying two different products on the leaves (I think every 10 days or so) during the target infestation period. Many have tired this and say it is of limited effectiveness, whereas the Imidacloprid + Neem works the best, but at a cost.

After you answer that main question, then the alternates can be discussed in detail.

Hello!

Why not try the all natural route using 'lacewing bugs' which can come back year after year and devour just about any soft bodied insect including mites. During its larvae stage, one will devour up to 200 victims a week!

You could also try predator mites:-)

In my experience, there is NO systemic that will rid your plants completely of mites, all the while killing off many beneficial insects. In fact, theat 'Bayer systemic' insecticide is like candy for mites. It will leave your plants even more susceptible to an attack. I will never use this stuff again on my trees, unless I am prepared to battle mites before they take hold of all my plants.
I don't think that many people even know that many of these products can actually make super mites, resilient bad pests in which they begin to become immune to these products and render them useless only to kill off the beneficial ones.

FYI: Rhizo has directed that maybe you give FE a try and that can be very effective. She is right to me, since I can testify to that!

Have a great day!

Mike

Hi Mike!

There was a separate conversation there re: mites and Rhizo. The OP is asking about Citrus Leaf Miners and Bayer systemic. I do agree with you regarding its use impacting beneficials and causing resistance. But that would be a secondary conversation for the OP since the primary concern about eating "Imdacloprid edibles" may make the whole topic moot.

Hey Cebury...

Your right...Good judgement on your part.

Thanks a lot:-)

Mike

Okay, if we're talking about CLM, many of us here in N. San Diego County, where we have a significant issue with CLM, use a combination of Neem Oil and Spinosad sprayed in the evening every 3 weeks, for 3 applications. When I first bought my home, I had several citrus that were so badly damaged by CLM (and rats/ground squirrels), I thought there were unsalvageable. I spoke with a couple of citrus growers, including Clausen's Nursery here in Vista, Calif., and all the growers suggested this combination . It has worked very well for me. I try to apply after blossom (but with lemons, that's hard to do), as the Spinosad can be mildly harmful to bees. But, living up against an 80 acre abandoned orange orchard that is going unmanaged, makes it very hard for me to contain certain pests. So, this is working well, and for me with my level of infestation, the least impactful to the environment and my family.

Patty S.

@cebury, I'm located in San Diego, CA. So I guess I'm in a heavy CLM area after all. Makes sense. I've seen evidence of leafminers even at the nurseries - it just seems like they especially come out the moment I bring them home. I'm also in the middle in regards to how much trust I place on government/companies. Ultimately, I just try and do as much research as possible and make responsible choices. I'm going to test the effectiveness of FE since its something I haven't tried yet. Actually, I haven't tried anything on a citrus or for leafminers. I know neem and spinosad worked well for my roses but was looking for a "different" approach for trees since they've been more of an investment. If FE doesn't help, then I'll go back to spinosad and neem. If it continues to get worse from there, I'll give the bayer (imidacloprid) a try. Again cebury, thank you very very much for being so helpful.

@meyermike_1micha, if I do decide to use imidacloprid in the future, I really hope my tree doesn't become a mite magnet. I appreciate the headsup, at least I know to keep an eye out for them. But I'm definitely going to give FE a try. I seem to have turned into a "gardening-product junkie" overnight. Sigh..

@Patty S., woo hoo! Thank you so much for posting! Since your sort of close-by (I'm near Pacific Beach) you've given me hope in winning this battle with leafminers without using the bayer. Can you please tell me how you use the combination of Neem Oil and Spinosad? Are they both applied at the same time or? Do citrus trees go dormant? Do you use a dormant spray at that time? If so, may I ask what do you use and when?

Well, I brought my dwarf "Calamondin" tree back to Home Depot today (it was mislabeled and was suppose to be a dwarf bearss lime tree). I really wanted to get another one but the selection was very limited and what was left didn't look great. I ended getting a patio guava pineapple instead. Go figure? Anyway, still hoping to find a replacement lime this week. At least I'll be much more informed this time around. :)

Thanks to all!!

Sure, yodiana. I just mix up the Spinosad per the label directions. Same with the Neem Oil. Put both into one sprayer. I then spray in the evening, which is when the little CLM moth comes out to do it's bad thing, and bees go back to their hives or homes,and making sure we're not in for a super warm day (as the Neem oil can burn the leaves). I make sure to spray the new growth, as the CLM only can mine in the newer, tender leaves. I spray very well, tops and bottoms of leaves. I also try to avoid bloom times if at all possible, as Spinosad when wet (and even dry) can be mildly toxic to bees. With lemons, of course, that's hard to do as the bloom just about all the time. I spray when I first see evidence of CLM. For us, that can be in the spring as well as the fall. I spray 3 times, in 3 week intervals. I do one spraying series in the Spring, then another round in the Fall when it can be much worse. Many of our citrus growers follow this protocol with excellent results. So far for me, no CLM this Spring.

And, if you're looking for a nice Bearrs Lime, try Clausen's Nursery, 3132 Blackwell Dr. Vista, CA 92084, (760) 724-3143. They're until 5:00 pm, and also open on Saturdays. Ray is great, and they grow large numbers of citrus for our area. Plus, their prices are unbeatable.

Patty S.

Thanks, Patty! That was extremely helpful. I'll give it a try. I'm optimistic its going to work, thanks so much. :)

Ooh and thank you for referring me to Clausen's. Never heard of them. I'll stop by when I'm up in Vista in two weeks. Unfortunately, I got my Bearss Lime today but would like to get an orange or tangerine citrus of some type and Clausen's website looks like they have lots to choose from! Uh-oh, I'm really going to get myself in trouble. I just know it.....

Ah, yes, bring cash, leave the credit card at home, Yodiana!! They are very nice, there are TONS of citrus on site, and they have quite a few very nice mandarin varieties to choose from. If they have a Page, snag it for sure. And be sure to pick up a lovely Cara Cara navel orange. They are pink and very, very sweet. And don't forget to pick up a Moro Blood orange, too! Yummm!!!

Patty S.

I'll add Cara Cara and a Moro to my wish list. I haven't tasted a lot of good oranges so its hard for me to know which variety to select and is good to grow in San Diego. But I definitely like sweet citrus (unless its suppose to be tart).

Page orange? Just googled it and sounds like a gem. I'm not "qualified" to get one of those right now. I got sad seeing my bearss lime decline. I can't imagine how I'd feel if I killed a Page tree!

No, Page Mandarin :-) It's actually a cross between a Minneola tangelo and Clementine mandarin. It was officially released as an orange, but technically speaking it's a tangelo hybrid since its parentage is three-fourths mandarin and one-fourth grapefruit. It's now grouped with mandarins as a mandarin hybrid, which I think is appropriate considering its parentage. It does very, very well here in San Diego county, especially if you're fairly near the coast. Which is always a plus with any citrus that has grapefruit in its heritage. It doesn't need a lot of heat to sweeten, so perfect for those of us closer to the coastline, but will perform equally as well in the hotter interior climates. Here's a link. Mandarins are very hardy, and great first trees for those new to citrus. My Page is just humming along, and had several fruits set, which I decided to leave on, since there were only 3. They are delicious, and this mandarin hybrid truly lives up to its name as one of the finest tasting mandarins out there. If Clausen's doesn't have one, Ganter Nursery, right across the street (NE corner of Vista Way and Gopher Canyon) should. They are also one of our best kept fruit tree and rose secrets in San Diego county!! Again, take cash so you keep yourself in check if you go to Ganter's, too!!! www.ganternursery.com.

Patty S.

Here is a link that might be useful: UC Riverside Citrus Collection: Page Mandarin

i live in north florida. my yard has 2 established orange trees that last year had citrus rust mites. that ruined most of our fruit. we alternate years with heavy fruit - this year light and i can't tell if mites are back. local store suggested this bayer product. now i am not sure reading all this info. the county agent said an horticultural oil? advice?

Ahhhhhh. I'm surrendering to the mite conversation. Sorry yodiana I tried to put a stop to it but it just keeps coming back.

You can try horticultural oil but it hasn't worked for me. It does for some people but even when I apply it regularly and make sure to cover every surface I still have issues. If you do try the oil you might try a few applications a week apart and then some lacewings. I've had good luck with lacewings for my pepper plants (took 2 generations but things are under control there) but still no luck on my citrus.

Here is the UFL information on miticides if you do end up trying to go that route: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/cg002

Read whole article about systemic pesticides and Bayer Advanced at:

BEE CULTURE, THE MAGAZINE OF AMERICAN BEEKEEPING
http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=714

"In May of 2008 there were massive bee kills in the Baden-Wurttemberg region of Germany, with two thirds of the colonies there killed. The damage was quickly traced to one of the pesticides in the controversial family of neonicotinoids produced by the German corporation Bayer. Planting of corn seed coated with clothianidin, by way of pneumatic planters, supposedly resulted in fugitive clothianidin dust which caused the disaster. Within two weeks Germany banned clothianidin on corn and several other crops, but the damage was done."

Having been an employee in several nurseries over the years, I was taught that the best way to care for a plant is to keep it healthy with regular usage of an organic fertilizer. A healthy plant doesn't get sick. It's always stressed plants that get sick.

We have a lot of aphids and whiteflys on the house plants and were wondering if this systemic might be a solution? Could we water the house plants with this?

We do not have any pollinators for these plants adn we don't eat them... so I do not see any downsides...???

If the answer is yes, how do we mix it, what is the proportion, and how much do we apply to each little pot? Ok... some are 3", 4", 8", 14"??? some pots have many plants...

I see how to get the right proportion when spraying an area of the yard, but struggling with what proportions for mixing and application for these little pots?

Thanks,
Dean Ousterhout

This particular formulation is not intended for container nor indoor use. That is why you don't see any directions on the label that are helpful to you. You don't want to expose you nor your family to this pesticide.

Perhaps you could call the toll free number on the label and ask about which of their many products CAN be used indoors.

Some time has passed since anyone has posted on this, but I used the Bayer Advanced product for fruit trees (apple in my case) - in about May of 2013 on 3 apple trees. Now that harvest time is here, my apples are bigger and less diseased then I've ever seen them. The trees are very old - over 50 years and not much has been done to them except the last few years - slight pruning and a little one-time application of this or a similar product - and sometimes a lime sprinkling.

Anyway, I am now so concerned about having used this product that I'm looking for comments from anyone else who has. I called the company a couple of weeks ago and was told that the amount of Imidacloprid used in the product is so small that it will not affect the fruit in terms of it's 'edibleness'. OK - so I picked several bushels of apples and started making pies, etc. I did eat some - raw and cooked and this past week my tongue has been kind of numb. It is possible that I burned it or overbrushed it but am not sure. I'm wondering if anyone else has used this and had anything similar. I'm just trying to figure out if it could at all be related to the Imidacloprid in the apples. I really hope that is not the case. Others have eaten a few slices of pies and are not having any reactions so I'm probably just being paranoid. My trees are huge and I used less than what the recommended amount was - but reading all the different posts - I thought I'd resurface this and ask some follow-up questions. (Had tons of bees on them this year and used the product after flowers were all off). As I'm about to hit 'submit' - I'm realizing that my daughter's friend gets a numb tongue from apples - maybe its in a lot of the apples we eat and children would be more 'allergic' / sensitive to this .... ? food for thought.

Has anyone had experience with Spinosad preventing damage from the nasty fruit bugs like apple maggot, coddling moths, and plum curculio?

Friend of mine claims this year he saw a reduction from last years spoilage of 80 percent down to this years 2 percent of his apples. Kind of hard to believe.

This was a great thread, and is still useful. Saving for later...

Im in SE Pennsylvania, and the Spotted Lantern Fly has been decimating our fruit trees.

Interested in cebury's comment about the systemic Bayer's being poison. Problem is that our LA County is spraying for the asian bugs and short of barring access, I don't think we have a say. Actually, they were here yesterday spraying. They also used Tempo SC Ultra