No, because you're not planting your citrus tree outside, Susanne. So, it really doesn't matter :-) Can't make the comparison to a tree that will be planted outside that is suitable to your climate (like your apple tree example), as we're not talking about your outdoor climate. And, I'm very surprised that your tree from Four Winds had CLM. Did you contact the folks at Four Winds to let them know? Did it come out of the box with CLM damage? How do you know it was "infested"? The moth is almost microscopic. Were there damaged leaves from the larvae? And actually, they are pretty reasonable priced, and their shipping is reasonable, because they ship their trees with minimal potting medium.

Patty S.

patty i did not see the damage when the trees arrived. i only got aware of them when i checked a couple of days later when somebody here on the forum asked about this parasite and what to do about them. i think i got them early and i crushed them all. one little bugger showed up a day later but got that one too. no, unmistakeably CLM as the tunnels are there. i did not see the moth and hope the eggs were laied before shipping.
checking my trees several times per day for new damage. nothing so far. the new growth does not look so nice now and the stems are getting dark.
yes i called four winds and made them aware of the problem. it might ben just one case but i can imagine if their little trees are all close together the damage can get out of hand very fast.

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here you can see the silver from the separated outer layer from the leave. only the meyer lemon had some new growth but the italian not and so no leave miner on them.

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another picture from today
i just hope the discoloration of the stem doesn't mean i got something else with the CLM

just wanted to add, i did not spray anything. just hand picked the larvae or i should say squeezed them out of their little tunnels.

Suzanne, first off, CLM is not a "parasite". It is a tiny, tiny moth that will lay eggs on the undersides of the leaves, then the larvae hatch, and tunnel their way into the leaves, finally tunneling out and turning into little moths. Their damage is just cosmetic, and I would contact Four Winds to let them know your tree arrived in this state.

Patty s.

Patty I mentioned earlier that I contacted four winds about this.
I was aware that this is a moth. And in its larvae state it feeds of the citrus leaves which per definition would be a parasite.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/parasite

What I was wondering if they are capable of transmitting diseases?
Probably not as they don't go from plant to plant and poke them like aphids would do for example.

THE SHIPPING IS EXPENSIVE BECAUSE THEY ARE IN CALIFORNIA AND YOU ARE IN MICHIGAN, A LONG WAY TO GO. IF YOU EVER TAKE A VACATION DOWN TO HILTON HEAD ISLAND OR NEARBY YOU CAN PICK UP WELL DEVELOPED TREES FROM PLANTFOLKS. THE REASON WHY YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ON OTHER FRUITS IS THEY ARE DECIDUOUS AND NEED A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME UNDER 40 F IN ORDER FOR THE TREE TO SLEEP AND PREPARE FOR NEXT YEAR. A TREE FROM FLORIDA MAY HAVE A REST REQUIREMENT OF 350 HOURS WHICH WILL TAKE YOU INTO NOVEMBER, THEN YOU GET A WARM SPELL AND THE TREE HAS RESTED AND WAKES UP AND GROWS AND IS KILLED BY COLD 2 DAYS LATER. A TREE FROM FARTHER NORTH NEEDS A CHILL OF 2000 HOURS AND ALONG COME SPRING AND THE TREE FLOWERS AND SETS FRUIT BUT THE LEAVES DO NOT WAKE UP AND THE FRUIT GROWS REAL WELL AND THE TREE DIES OF STARVATION. LAST CASE SCENARIO YOU GET AN APPLE TREE FROM FLORIDA AND IT DOES REAL WELL OUT IN THE YARD AND ALONG COMES WINTER AND THE TEMPERATURE DROPS TO MINUS 27 F AND THAT VARIETY ONLY GOES DOWN TO -5. TREE IS DEAD.

THE CITRUS TREE NEVER SLEEPS, CAN NEVER LIVE OUTSIDE OVER WINTER AND THEY FRUIT WELL AS HOUSE PLANTS. CHOSE THE MOST FORGIVING ROOTSTOCK FOR YOUR TREE AND YOU WILL DO WELL

MY POTTED MEIWA KUMQUAT TREE IS GROWN FROM
SEED
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MEIWA AT HIS BEST POTTED IN GALLON FOOD TIN

Here is a link that might be useful: http://plantfolks.com/

I also recently purchased a tree from Four Winds, which arrived with CLM damage (albeit minor). I wonder if they are having some issues this spring? Outside of the CLM, the tree was a little on the small side, but otherwise in good health.

Regarding Plantfolks nursery, I believe they are in a quarantine zone. I would make sure you check w/ Ned at Plantfolks before getting anything from them to make sure it is OK.

susanne42

Do you like figs. If so, the hardy chicago fig will grow outside in your area without protection or better yet getting piled over with leaves for the winter. They are a lot easier to grow than citrus. There is a reason every one with citrus is in quarantine. IT IS A ROYAL PAIN IN THE- --TO GROW. Both my figs produced fruit within the first 5 months from a 1.5 inch and 9 inch plants.

Good luck with your trees Steve;

figs sound interesting but my heart is set on citrus. i like challenges and learn new things.

i spend some time( not enough yet) about pests that are capable of transmitting diseases and wow.
i just hope i will not introduce any of them here.

scott my meyer lemon is also much smaller then i expected her to be. looks kinda thin overall. the italians look much better.

figs sound interesting but my heart is set on citrus. i like challenges and learn new things.

i spend some time( not enough yet) about pests that are capable of transmitting diseases and wow.
i just hope i will not introduce any of them here.

scott my meyer lemon is also much smaller then i expected her to be. looks kinda thin overall. the italians look much better.

i found this site very informative
http://www.hungrypests.com/the-spread/pesttracker/california.php

susanne42

Thanks for the site link. Have you considered growing from seed. seed grown trees are more vigorous and they don't fruit until they are very strong. Grafted trees on the other hand fruit right now but the tree. does not grow or you can pick the fruit off and the tree grows. So lets plant seeds and save money on shipping and tree costs as well as have disease free trees. you can plant 50 seeds and keep the best 10 and then keep the best 3 and have the best 6%.

My seed grown meiwa kumquat tree grew 30 linear inch in one year after sprouting dispite being the slowest growing of citrus (fortunella crassifolia). THEY ARE SLOW.

Hear are a few pics on tools used

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Blowing fresh air through root base in winter

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My tree did 2/3 of it growth in four months under this 13 watt 5300 K CFL bucket light set up

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Hundreds of drain and aeration holes.

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Potted meiwa kumquat tree grown from seed

Yes I have currently grapefruit seeds sprouting. But really wanted to have trees fruiting in my life time ;)

susanne42

I am going to guess from your handle that you are 42 years old. The grapefruit should make good rootstock for other citrus. Grapefruit is very large and probably wont fruit outside a full greenhouse, however you could graft fruit trees like kumquats. I choose meiwa for its sweet edible and tasty peal as well as is sweet insides. Because kumquats are small ( 1 inch diameter ) the tree will fruit a lot faster Get a meiwa kumquat and plant all the seeds . They are finicky and some will die. The grape fruit tree should grow fast with the bucket light setup I used. I'll be using 35 gallon trash cans this winter. after about a year you'll be able to start grafting meiwa twigs to the grapefruit branches. I should grow nicely and fruit in 3 to 7 years. It is quicker and easier to get a bushel of small fruit off a tree than it is to get a 1/3 bushel of large fruit when you are growing the tree beyond it fringe range.

Good luck. you might even have fun

Susanne, this is still not considered a parasite in the plant world. That would be an organism that stays with the plant. CLM does not. It completes part of its life cycle on a citrus tree, then departs. A little bit different. And no, CLM is not a vector for other citrus tree diseases. It is considered more of a cosmetic nuisance than anything else.

Patty S.

patty thank you. i think we can agree that it is a pest? weak management and CLM on very young trees and i think this can be a problem.
anyway, i talked to four winds again this morning and they have their tree treated. i ordered the moro and she said if it comes with CLM they should die off in two days.
i will search for some organic sprayi can use as preventative for other sucking insects like aphids and will use that on a regular basis.

poncirusguy i wish.
42 was a great age but long time ago ;)

I want to let people know that if they heat with oil at $4.00/ gallon and electric is $0.12/ kw you are at the break even point and it cost no more to heat with CFL's delivering 5300K light to your citrus trees in your basement. Just register it with the police so they don't kick down your door in search of pot

so i will register my citrus trees and they will leave my pot alone????
just kidding :))

"Susanne, this is still not considered a parasite in the plant world. "

CLM are a parasite in every definition of the word. They're just not a particularly bad one.

I would consider it a pest, but not a true parasite, which stays with the plant for it's entire life cycle, but does not kill the plant. For example, a virus that infects a plant and stays in the plant for its entire lifecycle would be a parasite. A beetle (or moth in the case of CLM) that lays its eggs on a plant, and the larvae eat the plant then leave would not be considered a parasite. I know this is a fine distinction, but it is one, for whatever it really matters. Small difference, but it is what distinguishes a parasite from just being a pest. And yes, it's a nusiance pest, Susanne, but usually just cosmetic. Where CLM becomes an issue is with a very young tree, with little canopy and all that canopy is very tender. You can then have nearly or 100% pest pressure, and that can cause stunted growth. I have not yet seen it kill a tree, but it can slow down growth. Treat with Bayer Advanced Fruit & Citrus Insect Control systemically (not organic but very safe) or with Spinosad + Volck Oil sprayed every 3 weeks (just watch your temps, that they're not over 85 degrees, and this is organic). Sounds like Four Winds has treated with Imidicloprid (active ingredient in Bayer), and they would be correct - it will kill the larvae. I think we're having an earlier and heavier CLM season here in California. I have to get my trees treated now, instead of 1st of July. Ugh.

Patty S.

patty, a virus is not a parasite. maybe now is the time to do a bit research. ;)

and the CLM can damage a very young citrus plant if under five years old that growth is stunted and in fact if infestation is severe, a young tree can and will die from this parasite.
the damage leave are suspect to secondary infections because the plant is stressed. of course this is not my personal experience but as soon as i discovered this parasite i did extensive search.

the definition for a parasite is every living organism that "feeds" off of another living organism.
is really doesn't matter if this parasite is host specific or needs another host to complete the life cycle.

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