well all situations will be different. But a couple things that will always be consistent to container planting are, root bound and soil compaction. These are big killers to a containerized tree, and when that happens is when you need to re-pot. Is it 1 year, 2 years, who knows. It will all depend on the growth rate of your tree and the ingredients used. I think of it this way, A marathon runner will only make a short ways with bare feet, but put a good pair of running shoes on him, and he will finish the race.

As long as you plants roots are healthy then so will the top growth.

HI Bigmario, and mksmth!!

Let me think on this one....I think actually I am going to start a new thread..But it has to be based on what you asked....

Live well for now//

Mike

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Not sure if you all can see these photos but these lemons have been in these pots for many years. My uncle says all he does about once a year is scrape some dirt and roots off top few inches and ad some new soil which looks like it comes from the hills. I have other photos of lemon trees on a different computer that are almost twice as big as these. Love to see some photos of anyones larger trees in a soiless mix and tell how long in the same pot. Hope this posts.

Hey, Mario!
I'm glad you're enjoying the new mix!
Optimally, you'll be re-potting every 2 - 3 years.
I have no doubt, however, that you could grow trees for significantly longer in these mixes...
but the vitality would eventually decrease.

Josh

Hello BigMario,
I have a very large Improved Meyer Lemon tree that is in a 30 gal. pot(I think). I can't tell you how long it has been in this pot. I bought it last February and have not repotted it yet. I have to buy a few more things before I can make the gritty mix. This tree is about 6ft tall and almost 4ft wide. You had mentioned seeing huge trees in terra cotta pots in Italy. One thing I think you should realize is that a lot of gardeneras will simply replace the soil with the tree still in the pot. I don't care too much for this method myself. The main reason being that the roots more than likely will still have fine particles of the decomposed mix that is still covering the roots. That is a big problem in that it can cause root rot to set in. I joined this forum last spring when I bought my Improved Meyer lemon tree. I wanted to know as much as possible because I didn't want this tree to die on me. I had a dwarf moro blood orange that I bought along with a dwarf keylime last year from QVC. I potted both trees in MG citrus and cactus soil. Both trees did well during the summer months outdoors. I think the sun was able to dry the moisture around the root ball and that prevented the roots from rotting. I didn't run into problems until I brought them in for the winter. I want to say by January last year, the dwarf Moro blood orange was dropping leaves like crazy. My dwarf keylime was still growing good and even producing blooms. I came across the citrus forum and started doing some research and that was when I found my problem. I began removing the soil around my blood orange and I could smell the rotting roots. By the time I removed all the rotting roots, I had nothing left except for a few small roots. My tree never recovered and I ended up getting rid of it. For some reason, the dwarf keylime, never had a problem with root rot in standard potting soil. I have learned thru the years that if my plants are happy, I don't touch them. Mike had posted pictures of his Oro Blanco grapefruit that he bought from Four Winds. I could not get all the ingriedients for the gritty mix so once again, I didn't use a gritty mix. That Oro immedietly started declining. In a few weeks, I lost every leaf except for maybe 3-4. I transfered it to the gritty mix and still nothing until maybe a month ago. I now have a happy tree that is growing strong again. I suugest that you plant a citrus tree in a standard potting soil and plant one in a gritty mix. Keep an eye on them and see for yourself which tree does better for you. Then you can make a decision on which you feel most comfortable using. I read that you had asked other nurseries about the soil recommendations for citrus and your right, a lot of them will tell you to use a standard porring soil. I bought a large Ruby red grapefruit tree from the same nursery I bought my Improved Meyer lemon tree. I kept that tree under lights and gave it the best care I could but within a month it died on me. Looking back on it I remember that it was growing in a standard potting soil. The Improved Meyer lemon that I just bought last spring came in a bark mix and that tree right now is carrying three seperate crops of lemons. The only draw back that I have found with my tree is that it does require more watering. I hope you find this info helpfull. You couldn't be in better hands here. Mike and Josh both are experts when it comes to citrus and they both have never steered me wrong!
Andrew

IMO, it's not wise to ignore what we know about the way trees grow in containers in favor of anecdote, especially since 'how well' any particular tree is doing is a very subjective thing.

We know for certain that growth is negatively affected at about the time the soil/root mass can be lifted from the container intact. We also know that once the tree has reached this state of root congestion, growth is affected permanently, unless the root congestion is corrected. We know these things because tree growers have a vested interest in seeing that their trees put on caliper as quickly as possible. Dr Carl Whitcomb goes into some considerable detail about what the impact of being root bound has on growth. Practically speaking, after spending thousands of hours digging around in as many root balls, I can assure you his observations are accurate.

You cannot expect a tree growing under root-bound conditions to grow to its genetic potential within the limits of other cultural factor, and it will not/cannot. When you regularly tend to root pruning and and replacement of collapsed soils, you offer your tree the opportunity to grow at as close to it's genetic potential as other cultural factors allow, but when you simply put a tree in a container & do nothing in the way of root maintenance, you deny that plant that same potential.

On a scale of 0-10, with 0 being a dead tree and 10 being perfect vitality/growth, trees in containers are capable of somewhere around an 8. A scenario re the range of vitality: Trees that are repotted (includes soil change and root work) will vary over a 3 year period (between repots) and at some point soon after repotting will be capable of growing at a level of 8. They will decline to maybe a 5 as they become root bound. When you repot, they go right back to 8 again, so the trees can be maintained indefinitely at good vitality levels.

Let's consider the tree that is NOT repotted. Some may feel that because they see a growth "spurt" after they pot up or scratch some fresh soil into the top few inches that all is well, but lets talk about that growth "spurt" It's not a spurt at all. It's simply a very stressed tree temporarily growing a little closer to it's potential, which has been misinterpreted as a spurt.

*A tree starts at a vitality level of 8 and declines to a 5 over 3 years.
* It's potted up and some of the vitality returns, but not all, so it's only growing at a level of 7.
*Over 3 years, it declines to a 4; when potted up again, it can only muster a vitality level of 6.
* It declines to a 3 and is potted up to a 5
* It declines to a 2, and is potted up to a 4
* It declines to a 1, and is potted up to a 3

By this time, the stress has turned to strain, any the trees natural vigor can no longer sustain it against insects & disease, so the tree succumbs to an inability to make more energy than it uses because it cannot grow. A tree that is not growing is dying. Dr. Alex Shigosize>.

I generally reject anecdotal testimony about trees in containers that are growing with good vitality after X number of years that have only been potted up because I know it's impossible. Returning full circle now to what I said in the opening paragraph: people can SAY this because "good vitality" is a very subjective thing. I would simply point to the fact that you virtually never see old, robust containerized trees unless someone IS tending to the roots, which is why most containerized trees are in such frequent need of replacing while bonsai and their tended roots are passed down through hundreds of years, even in spite of the difficulties presented by their minuscule pots and soil volumes.

Al

Thanks for the replies. I am still not sure why my uncles trees are doing so good. Does this mean by replacing the soil and removing some of the fine top roots as he says he does is maintaining the roots? Because his trees are very vigorous. The other trees I said I saw,come to think of it, were at big villas that probably had a crew of gardeners tending to them whatever way they do there. So even though they looked as though they had been in there huge containers for ever, I am not really sure what they do to those. I only know what my uncle does. At the villas I toured, I remember them having rooms that were not really green houses but huge rooms to move the citrus into when it gets too cold. I guess if you have a crew you can maintain those huge trees and I mean huge. I am gonna try and post a pic of one or two. Let me know if you can see it.[URL=http://upmyphoto.com/img/image.php?image=frh_120104_images_7079_09152233000000_6756704260786_loc.jpg][IMG]http://upmyphoto.com/img/thumbnails/frh_120104_images_7079_09152233000000_6756704260786_loc.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=http://upmyphoto.com/img/image.php?image=frh_220100_images_7076_09152233000000_509317738962_loc.jpg][IMG]http://upmyphoto.com/img/thumbnails/frh_220100_images_7076_09152233000000_509317738962_loc.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

If I ever have a tree that big in a pot I guess I can hire someone to repot it or maintain the roots.

Thanks for your input Al.

Not to change this to a soil forum but I am using the 511 mix and after potting it kind of looks like orchid mix with lots of bark ontop. Is that normal after watering?

Well out to repot my last tree that is faling in regular potting mix.

Re potting can be decreased a number of ways. The most common problem is soil mixes. Although a number of soil mixes can be used for container citrus, its been found that soil mixes breaks down at at a much faster rate 1 - 2 years leading to compaction of the soil, which increases moisture and reduces air flow leading to failure and or re potting.

As with the many soil mixes there is the soil less mix such as bark and other products which will break down much slower than many soil mixes.

Although there are many containers available the best are those that air prune roots and gives drainage and aeration.

Unlike some people I feel citrus grows better being a bit root bound ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

Mario - when we root prune, we're careful to leave the conducting roots that attach to the trunk and as many fine roots as possible. The heavy roots, other than those that attach to the trunk, are worthless in containers and should be removed at repot time. They simply take up room that could be supporting the growth of fine rootage, the plants work horses. Scratching at the surface soil and removing fine surface roots really doesn't constitute 'root maintenance'.

TC - I'm not exactly sure what you're saying about media choice, but to say your citrus, or any tree grows better when it's root bound is innacurate. Growth is measured by the increase in bio-mass, and tight roots assuredly slow the rate of increase. While you may prefer some of the growth characteristics produced when your trees are stressed by tight roots, your tree does not grow better.

Al

Al. Your welcomed to grow your citrus in any manner you wish.

This posting was my recommendation to bigmario and the posting (when can you stop re potting).

Regards Tom

Mario is growing in a soil-less mix - the 5-1-1.
So we know that re-potting should be undertaken every 1 - 2 years (on average).
I find that allowing a plant to become root-bound makes for a far more difficult
and stressful re-potting.

Josh

Well this surely got some to chime in. Can any of you see the pics of the trees I am talking about. I apreciate all of your knowledge and input but if I could grow a tree that looks like my uncle's whether it is stress growth or healthy growth I would be happy. I hate to sound like a broken record but just walking around town 9 out of ten houses there have potted citrus and not all but most look good or good enough to me to want in my yard. I did not see a one in a root prune pot. I guess the way to do it is pot up until the tree gets to a size that is still manageable to take out and root prune and just keep maintaning it. How do you post pics so they can be seen on thread as photos not links?

Josh.. My soil-less mix is chc (Coconut Husk Chips) the older trees are planted in 100% chc, the younger ones 3-5yrs old have chc and peat.

I use special containers that prune the roots as they grow, most of the trees been grafted on flying dragon root stock, some are unknown grafts.

Re-pottting is very easy.

Tom, do they become root-bound in that mix?
If the roots are bound, the subsequent re-potting (which includes root-pruning) is going
to be more difficult, regardless of the mix.

Mario,
could it be that the roots are escaping from the containers into the ground?
Or are they all on patios, sidewalks, concrete, et cetera?

To post images in the Message box, you need the html code that starts with "Josh

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Hi everyone..HI josh..!

What I would like to know is, are there many people there successful growing plants in these kind of pots, this size, and in that type mix indoors? Lets us say, 6 months out of the year? If so, any pest issues, or leaf drop? Yellowing of leaves?

Also, what kind of year round weather does that place of the world get? It must allow for these orange trees to grow healthier than most, no matter what they are potted in. Something very rare for most of us..Can I live there? Can I at least visit? Sounds like a beautiful place!

I have an Asian friend who lives near me that grows the BIGGEST lime trees within a short period of time in pure COMPOST from the ground, and then looses some of them by the spring of the following year.He buys a new one every year after he has lost one or two..If he hasn't lost a few, which this year he has managed to keep a couple alive, they are loaded with mites, struggling to keep their leaves, and they have lost tons of branches.They then pick up in strength once they are outside in warm full sunshine and look as if nothing happen to them sometimes, especially after he scratches fresh compost into his containers.....But he seems to struggle with a few when it rains a lot..This is the game he plays with his trees every year..Don't get me wrong, the few that are root bound and potted in compacted soil mix, look great by summers end sometimes, and some do not..I guess it is the risk he is willing to take, since he swears that his trees can do much better in that type of soil, with tight roots...I think he has only has one out of dozens he has grown that is about 6 feet tall growing in a 30 gallon barrel, but he always has to call me for help to green up his leaves and rid the mites and gnats come winter..

I tried a bit of compost and peaty soil on one of mine before coming here one year as directed by him, even providing me the purest compost, and I had a tree that must of grown 3x faster than the ones I had planted in regular mix..But once i brought it in for the fall, it was invaded by the worst fungus gnat attack I ever saw. It affected all my other plants.. Then came the mites, leaf drop and eventual demise of the plant by the middle of winter...It was also root bound mind you. I figured if it was root bound, the chances of over watering were slim, but it stilled died of all of the above along with lack of nutrition since the water just ran right past the roots..Poor thing.

Thanks to Al and Greenman28, along with others , my trees flourish more than ever, in a looser mix, that does none of the above, and my plants flourish while not a one being root bound or suffocated by compacted soil. i suppose if I lived in a climate where I could leave them outside most of the year, I might have a better shot than before?

Mike

Tom - I didn't mention the information about plant growth so I could argue with you, I mentioned it so others wouldn't mistakenly take away the impression that their trees will grow better if they allow them to become root bound.

BTW - using containers that utilize shape and exposure to air to help deter encircling and girdling roots doesn't prevent plants from becoming root-bound just as quickly as they would in conventional containers. And I'm not pointing to this as a negative because the positive side outweighs any negative, but plants in root-maker and similar containers are actually more difficult to repot because there is a tendency toward a higher % of fine roots.

This is simply my own personal experience, but I wouldn't consider growing anything in just CHCs or a mix of predominantly CHCs and peat. Each time I've tried CHCs or coir (and I've tried all the flushing & inoculating with various fertilizers before using them) they've performed poorly compared to the plants in other media next to them. Commercial growers rarely use more than a small fraction of either CHCs or coir in their media because of issues related to (the probability of) a high level of soluble salts), excess water retention, pH too high to allow the use of dolomite as liming material, and extremely high levels of K. It's tough to beat conifer bark (pine, fir) as the primary fraction of container media, but of course ..... "we're welcome to grow our citrus in any manner we wish". ;o)

Al

Dam Meyermike. How did you do that with my pics?

Good point Josh. I am not 100% sure if the tree that I am standing by is growing out the bottom or not. I am sure my uncle's are not and many of the others I have seen are raised off ground so they are not. I still need to post some pics of my brother's trees here in calif. now that I am hooked on this forum.

I have heard some place else that citrus roots in pots like to be a bit crowded but what Al says makes sense.

Does the 511 mix look a bit like orchid mix after potting and watering?? I am hoping to see some good improvement in the repotted failing trees and then maybe I will use the 511 for the 2 new citrus I have in #5 pots. I did the satsuma about 5 days ago and it still looks about the same. The meyer and oroblanco were done 2-3 days after that and I actually used a different mix for the oroblanco. With it I used 4prt bark...1prt perlite...1prt kellog potting soil...1prt kellog amend. Time will tell. In the mean time my cousin lives 2 doors away and has a meyer in ground that is at least 20yrs old and is between a tall fence and the house under the eavs of the house where you would never think to put a citrus and is loaded always and I mean loaded with fruit. So much so that my wife and I joke that why am I trying so hard to grow a meyer when I can just walk to her house and pick more than we need.

thanks again