absolutely beautiful tree. I hope you do well with it. I would be inclined to remove all but one fruit to send energy to leaves and roots. The one fruit left is for eating one to assure you that meiwa was the right tree to buy.

Also Stressed tree will tend to flower as an effort to reproduce before they might die. Enjoy the flower then break them off. My guess that It's probably indoor to outdoor shock and not transplant shock that caused the problem seeing you are in MA. Has the tree gotten a good flush to wash out salts. If it is grafted to trifoliata /hybrid it may help to add vinegar to the water. If it is grafted to poncirus trifoliata, you will have to pay close attention to zinc deficiencies

I wish you well on your meiwa. Meiwa seems to me to be the real choice for up north in every way I can imagine.

Good looking tree!!

I have a 3yr old in-ground kumquat grafted to a flying dragon. Mine will put a new flush of leaves at the beginning of spring then constantly bloom all summer long with no more leave growth, but it has yet to hold on to any fruit. The only time I don't see blooms on it is during the winter months. I keep it watered and fertilized and it seems to be perfectly healthy.

{{gwi:601065}}

This post was edited by raisefire on Thu, Jul 18, 13 at 15:33

raisefire Have you tried hand pollinating the flowers with a q-tip or similar. Brush the q-tip or small paintbrush multiple times in each flower. I am finding that if I don't I will not get fruit on many of my fruit trees. This might help.

Good luck, my meiwa is just a twig from seed roots

I dont have a miewa but my Fukushu blooms pretty much every other month, even in the greenhouse during winter.

mike

First off I wanted to say that is a one beautiful tree! Awesom!!!
That is exactly the next one I want to get just as soon as I can afford one..By the way, my birthday is April 4th..lol Oops. toto late..

Nice job on that one!

Steve, does picking the flowers and fruit really work on strengthing roots or is that an old wives tale..? I never know what to make of this..

Thanks..

Mike

yes it does . the trees leave can only produce the food for the trees output. That is root growth, twig growth, and / or fruit. If the tree lacks enough leaves to take care of all 3, it won't. If the tree is sick or stress, It will go into reproductive mode and put the fruit first and roots next. This wont hurt the tree until the leaves ware out. Then the tree might be in real trouble.

With citrus we have a very juvenile root on a very mature scion. The tree flowers and fruits at a time in its life that is has no business fruiting. The roots and canopy can't adequately support it, but the scion thinks its a big tree and flowers. The nurseries tell you that you should not let it fruit for several years to get a big tree fast than can then support the fruit with out stressing itself.

Mike! Great to hear from you, and thanks for the kind words. Keep in mind that pic is a few months old. Imagine the same tree only covered in blooms and with about half the leaves! I'll try to get a pic up this evening, but I keep forgetting when I get home. It must be the heat!

You'll be glad to know I was just at Logee's on Tuesday and they have Miewas that look big and healthy for 25 bucks. I'm guessing they're about 18 months old and all have a lot of healthy growth on them.

With that being said I came in with the simple goal of getting one small plant for a terrarium and ended up walking out with 4 plants, including a new fig tree. Oops!

I have to stay away from that place...

I don't care much about it fruiting right now. It sets fruit after it flowers but they quickly drop off. I care more about establishing a healthy tree so I can enjoy it for years. Thanks for all of the tips though. After a couple failures, I've learned that being patient and as patty said KISS, go a long way with citrus.

Trees in pots are always under more challenge/stress than in ground tree and more care must be taken to protect the tree from unnecessary stress. The fruit should come off for the next 2 years. Potted trees are more dependant on the water solution ph that the soil ph that in ground tree and in this tree on poncirus trifoliata rootstock.vinegar is a good thing. Never spray vinegar on foliage. If MA means Massachusett the tree may get one months worth of prime citrus growing conditions with 3 -4 months of OK to mediocre whether followed by 7 to 8 months of absolute citrus HELL. I agree the fortunella crassifolia is not dying but it may still tend to want to produce as though it is.
For MA the summer of days in which the temperature is above 80 F most of the 24 hour day are not many. Even here in cincinnati I may only get another month of great citrus weather. A citrus tree in a pot up north can not be compared to in ground citrus trees in zone 10a sunset 23. The fruit must come off. however, if you pick the flowers and the tree sets more flower you will have a wonderful smelling yard

baconquest .good luck tree

Poncirusguy, I never put vinegar in my water for my container citrus. My municipal water pH is about 7.7 to 8.0. My citrus are just fine without vinegar. Truly, it really isn't necessary. That just adds to the difficulties of managing container citrus. Now, if you notice your tree is becoming chlorotic, and you think there may be a locking out of micronutrients, then you can try to acidify your water to see if you can improve the chlorosis, but I never have had to do that in all my years of managing both in-ground or container citrus.

And, kumquats are a little different than other citrus - they can manage more fruit. The few numbers of fruit on this tree are fine. The canopy can support what's on the tree. Plus, looks like the fruit is ripe now, anyway, so it can come off due to being ripe. Not all container citrus need to be stripped of their fruit for two years, you need to take into consideration vigor, canopy size and cultivar. I'm not comparing in-ground versus container citrus. Those are two different growing situations entirely. It is producing because that's what kumquats do. This is not abnormal behavior. If this tree is able to be outside during the late spring through early fall, then brought in and given additional light, it will do well. Kumquats are one of the better choices for container citrus.

Patty S.

Here is my Fukushu as of this morning. I love this tree.

{{gwi:601069}}

mike

Wow, Mike, that is a beautiful kumquat! I have 4 in small containers that I've now knocked out the bottom of the container, so the roots can simply grow into the ground. They were terribly neglected by the previous owner, and then by me until I could get over to that part of my yard, and get it all re-done. They sit in a paraterre-style garden (think formal knot garden style), which is divided into 4 parts. Each section has a little kumquat tree in an Italian style terra cotta pot. So, now after a little TLC, all 4 are starting to flush out, and improve. 3 are Nagami and 1 is a Meiwa. I was going to replace them all, but the 3 Nagami all came back, so I'm keeping them as is.

Patty S.

hoosierquilt

I have not added vinegar for almost 3 months. I posted for help with micronutrients and got very good advice. My sweet lee tangerines are near perfect looking. My kumquat and poncirus trees appear to need more. The roofing nails in vinegar worked fast and well but violates the KISS rules of gardening. As for PT roots, they like a more acid soil /solution.

I appreciate your advice and have been reading your advice for more than a year. My trees are alive today because of yours and others help on this web.

Thanks

Mike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What the heck? That is fantastic..Looks as if you had it residing in a tropical place for a while with the perfect watering, soil, fertilizer and care....Awesome.

Patty..I KNOW that your trees will do awesome..I can't wait to see a pic of them once they take hold:-) Hoping you are well too.

Too, your water must be far different than that of the area where 4Winds is..They tell me they have to acidify their water in order to keep their trees vibrant and that rich dark green. In fact, it was them that gave me the secret to keeping mine green. You are lucky!
Funny thing is that my water is about 7.5 to 8.5 and not using the vinegar method leaves my trees to revert back to yellowing and pale green within weeks...

Baconquest..Oh yeah! Lol..Stay away from that place or it will eat your wallet alive....lol

mksmth

Fantastic tree. You give me hope of something coming out for me.

steve

Well, Four Winds is in the business of selling (awesome looking) trees. My trees look very good, but Four Winds has a short window to get a tree up and running, and ready for a sale. Sort of like #1 grade fruit that gets sold to the grocery business. So, they will pull out all the stops. Their municipal water may be more alkaline than mine, but probably not by much, as they are only about 6 hours north of me (although in California, our climates and soils can be vastly different). All of our municipal water in the state of California, especially central to S. California comes mainly (like 90% or more) from two sources: the Feather River in N. California and the Colorado River bordering Arizona and California. So, we all have basically the same water, with minor exceptions. Most municipal water districts will keep the pH around 7.7 to 8.3 to discourage certain microbes from growing. If you knew what nurseries did to produce their really incredible looking trees for retail, you might be surprised. Like super duper high nitrogen fertilizer, Merit (to curb CLM), and even acidifying their water. Their trees need to look superb. Mine just look really, really good :-) And, I have more time to get mine looking good. They have a set time formula for budding to sale, and if it goes beyond that, then they start realizing diminishing returns on their investment. It's a tight margin in the retail tree business, especially here in California, where water is so very expensive, even in Central California (impossible for them to operate in S. California period, due to the ridiculous cost of municipal water, which is why 4 Winds relocated to Central California.)

Mike, if your trees are receiving heavy summer rain water, even though the pH is much closer to neutral or even on the acidic side, it can leach out Nitrogen very quickly, so that may be what's accounting for the chlorosis. Also, I have more organic fines in my potting soil that you do, because I can get away with that, since my container citrus are outside all year long and in a very dry climate. So, my soil naturally holds more nutrients than yours does. I am of the mind that the nutrient issue for your (and other east coast/non-citrus zone) container citrus has more to do with your potting mix, than the pH of your tap water :-) There is very little available organic matter, especially with newly made mix, and heavy rains will just wash out the nutrients. Even heavy watering will do the same thing. The tree's roots don't always have quite enough time to absorb things. It's a balance for sure between well-draining, and too-well draining for sure.

So, I don't think it's the pH so much that is your issue, but that nutrients just don't "stay" in your media as well as they do in my media, which is a bit different than the 511 or gritty mix. By acidifying your water, you might be making micros a bit more readily available, but I guarantee, if your mix was a little finer, this would be unnecessary. A fine point, but the one I'm trying to make so folks understand that citrus do NOT need to be in an acidic environment. This is a myth, and I think continues to be promoted due to the popularity of container citrus growing. You might see better results by acidifying your water, but not because citrus need it, but more due to the media being used to grow container citrus. Am I making sense here?

Patty S.

Thank you Patty, Mike, Mike, Steve and others!

Here's the pic of the tree as of today. Not much in the line of new growth/leaves but it has some fruit and continues to bloom. I'm pretty happy with the results thusfar, just hope that it will start putting on some foliage soon! Its getting bare!

Yes. All the texts say the same thing with PT needing more in the zinc and iron. Test done on PT rootstocks show the the roots are more resistant to disease die off in less acid soil. We have gotten so much rain I ramped up my nutrients with great success.

Baconquest, is your little tree ever outside? It would really benefit from being outside as much as possible throughout the year. Kumquats are very cold tolerant, so they can stay out longer than most citrus.

Patty S.

I am going to chime in and agree with Patty's take, your logic is perfect. I have always been under the impression that a soil pH somewhere between 6.0 and 7.5 is ideal for citrus. Slightly higher or lower pH values would probably be perfectly acceptable too. Citrus are certainly not like rhododendrons or azaleas that thrive in pH 4.5-6.0 soils.

Regarding municipal water sources, most Water Supply Authorities adjust the pH generally to somewhere between 7.5 and 8.5. One of the main reasons for this is to reduce the corrosivity of the water so that it does not leach out metals from any old pipes it may travel through between the water treatment facility and your faucet (this is especially important for areas with old construction where there still may be lead pipes and lead containing solder).

The water here in eastern Massachusetts (from the MWRA) is actually quite basic when it leaves the treatment facility with a pH of 9.6! However, by the time it reaches my house the pH has decreased to somewhere between 6.5 and 7.0. In other words, the water has absorbed equivalents of acid from the pipes etc... on its journey to my house. It does not take much acid to alter the pH of tap water as it contains very little buffering capacity. Even if the pH of your tap water is above 7.5, just mixing it with liquid fertilizer (such as Foliage Pro) will likely lower the water pH. For example, mixing 1/2 tsp/gal of Foliage Pro with my tap water lowers the pH to between 6.0 and 6.5. The specific changes in water pH will of course depend on the initial pH, buffering capacity of the water, and the formulation of the liquid fertilizer. If you don't know your water pH, you can pick up simple aquarium pH test kits from any pet store. However, I really wouldn't worry too much about it unless you know you are having problems. As Patty said, the most pragmatic course of action is to keep it simple.

Baconquest, depending where you are in MA, you may have the same water as I do. If you don't know, you can go to the MWRA homepage: http://www.mwra.state.ma.us to see. The MWRA water quality is actually quite good.

Regarding retention of nutrients in the container mixes. I am also of the opinion that it is most likely an issue of the container mix not retaining enough of the fertilizer salts. For example, I have seen literature for controlled release citrus fertilizers that recommend a higher application rate for loose well draining soils and a lower rate for heavier clay soils that retain nutrients better. Although container mixes with a high percentage of Turface (calcined clay) should hold onto nutrients reasonably well despite the larger particle size, as it is a quite porous material.

What I have learned though the years is that although they may not need to be in a acidic environment to thrive, I DO need to use vinegar at times to adjust the pH of my tap water as needed for the benefits of my trees...

If one consistenly fertigates with a good nutrient in the mixes that I use, Nitrogen is not an issue unless it is not available due to poor pH tap water over timne....

Patty just a side note for you:-).
My trees are at their greenest without vinegar if left to rain water soley, even if I should forget to fertilize consistently..Unfortunately, my trees have not seen rain in weeks, depending soley on tap water:-(

Have a great dayt all and I wish you all good health:)

Mike

This post was edited by meyermike_1micha on Sun, Jul 21, 13 at 10:40

meyermike
Vinegar has worked fantastic for me. I have set up a dechlorinate/defluorinated system to improve my solution for my poncirus trifoliata, kumquat trees and blueberries When I am short on rain water. The sweet lee tangerine and blood oranges ( my friend's ) do fine with out,

Media pH does not need to be acidic...that's not the point of vinegar usage. The point of vinegar in water is simply to lower the pH of the fertigating solution while the plant takes up nutrients. Otherwise, we know that Citrus can be grown in a wide range of media pH.

My trees seldom require vinegar, but there have been times when a good vinegar flushing has returned my trees to a bright green from a dull shine.

But if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If your trees are fine, no need.

Josh

thanks for the comments on my tree. It has become one of mine and my families favorite trees. it and all my trees get Foliage pro every week unless I see yellowing then I will use Miracle grow all purpose to get a bit more nitrogen to them. Usually what happens is I will use FP for 3 weeks then MG and so on. I do add a bit of vinegar to my solution to bring the tap water down from above 8 to closer to 7. Im no chemist or citrus fertilizer guru so i have no authority to say whether or not it is required but as cheap as vinegar is, I use it.

Hey Mike, Josh how have you been?

Mike

Baconquest - In plants, energy 'sinks' are areas of the plant that require a flow of photosynthate (or energy, if you like). The energy demands are communicated to the plant by chemical messengers, and vary in strength. The plant's priorities when normally allocating energy are, flowers first, then fruits, leaves, stems, and roots, in that order. Roots, however, very often are the most significant factor when it comes to limiting or enabling the rest of the plant's ability to realize its potential in the areas of growth and vitality. I don't find anything to disagree with in all the advice you've received, but would make this observation: If you try something or make as change and it doesn't work, it's often just as likely that what you identified as the problem isn't the problem at all, as it is the remedy wouldn't have worked had the problem been identified correctly. An example might be found in a grower seeking nutritional solutions to slow growth when the cause might be related to what growth phase the plant is in or root health that isn't what it could be .... or some other factor that begs consideration.

Bloom disbudding and removing fruit removes powerful sinks that would otherwise demand the plant's focus, freeing up energy that can be applied to elongation, foliage, and additional rootage. I almost always disdud blooms/fruit on bonsai in development for the reason outlined. Mature plants whose appearance would be enhanced by fruit are usually only allowed to hold onto a limited number of fruit in alternate years for the same reason.

Most container media has a low bulk density and little buffering capacity. My irrigation water is always 8.5+ in pH, but I still manage to maintain a very wide variety of woody and herbaceous plant material in excellent health. Plants in containers don't care much about pH, as long as you're able to put all the nutrients essential to normal growth in front of them. If they're there, plants will get them - up to a point.

I often notice some chlorosis in the plants I over-winter indoors under lights - especially as the winter wears on. I can cure the chlorosis in 2 ways. A) I can acidify my irrigation water with common acids (vinegar, citric acid, sulfuric acid ....), or I can add tiny amounts of Sprint 138 to my fertigation solution. Sprint 138 is an Fe chelate for high pH applications. I actually have more faith in acidifying the drinking water as being ACTUALLY remedial than I do the addition of the Fe. This is because excessive amounts of Fe can green up a plant and mask other deficiencies that also cause chlorosis.

I think the most important message here is, if you're working toward a solution, and how you're trying to arrive at the point of correction isn't working, perhaps the problem has been misidentified and other steps might prove more fruitful.

Al

baconquest

Contact 4 winds with pics an what you have done and see what they have to say. They have a vested interest in you tree doing well

Steve

Thank you everyone for your advice! Al, great to hear from you as always. Very interesting food for thought regarding growth priority. Its funny too, nature in the end tends to take over, and a lot of the original fruit from the first bloom has dropped leaving only about a dozen of the strongest that have acutally set.

Given my personal interest for the tree, I'll keep these dozen or so fruit on the tree so that I have some fruits of my labor (literally!), but will pinch off anything that sets from this point onward. Most likely they'll drop anyways, given the history so far.

Regarding PH, I decided to add vinegar based on some feedback a few months back. My PH hovers around 8.0 according to my water report. Doing some calculations a tablespoon of vinegar doesn't do much to adjust the PH of water, so I've been skeptical of the science behind it from the onset. Even if it isn't doing anything, its really easy to drop a bit in at every watering, I'll probably keep doing it.

Patty, good call on the indoor/outdoor aspect. I have mine on a covered porch. It gets about 8 hours of direct full sun and a combined 14 hours of total light due to it being a southeast window. It also stays nice and warm there, resembling a greenhouse. Moving outside is an option, but not a great one, as I have it in a ceramic pot and gritty mix, and I live on a third floor apartment. Its a lot easier for me to tend to the plant when its where its currently located.

Thanks again everyone!

-Mike B

A comment and experience with pH....
I just found out a couple of months ago that East Bay MUD [EBMUD] here in northern California reports that their output water supply is in the 9.0-9.4 pH range. I also got word from Willits & Newcomb that Carrizo rootstock prefers a bit of acidic environment of 6.5 pH.

A quickie soil test returned a 6.5 to 7.5 range at most of my plantings.

Hmmmm. All my citrus on Carrizo rootstock and watered via EBMUD water has been looking chlorotic and undernourished, regardless of amount or frequency of feeding. I have citrus in another area which gets water at 7.1 - 7.3 pH. No issues there.

I added a bit of soil acidifier / sulpher to the ground (only at select plants) and a bit of vinegar to the water destined for the potted citrus.

Voila! After a few weeks, I am seeing the leaves green up a bit and getting new growth / flush. The non-acidified citrus has not changed.

It would be premature to draw the conclusion that the acidifier and vinegar directly made a difference, but the improvement at the acidified citrus is significant. I will test more soil and acidify the rest of the plantings if necessary. The 9+ pH water source report woke me up!

Have a good night..Great thread Mike:-0)

This post was edited by meyermike_1micha on Mon, Jul 22, 13 at 23:08

Keep shouting Mike. I have read elsewhere that in container growing, the medium only serves to spread the roots for hydroponic feeding with the desired side effect of holding the tree up.Vinegar really works with citrus. It saved my plants and I learned very early on when my poncirus was 2 months old.

Steve

Thank you Steve..

So happy to see it works for you too.....

My trees are proof that knowing their needs and reading them well is needed at all times...

Mike

This post was edited by meyermike_1micha on Mon, Jul 22, 13 at 23:11

Okay, let's back up here. I think we're missing what I'm trying to explain. So, as a recap - citrus are not "acid loving plants". That was my first point :-) They actually prefer a neutral to mildly acidic environment - 6.5 to 7.5, but would certainly not fall into the category of azaleas/rotodendrons, for example. Otherwise, they'd never make it in California, where our soils and water are more alkaline. So, that was my first point.

Secondly, I was postulating that the reason MeyerMike and other's container citrus were responding to acidified water wasn't because citrus "like it that way", as they do not, but that this has to do with the mix. Steve made a good analogy - using a much more porous mix (and there is nothing at all wrong with that, it is a GREAT idea for container citrus that have to live indoors for many months) is almost akin to a hydroponic environment. Is because such a porous mix with little readily available organic materials makes it harder for the roots to grab the nutrients (macros and micros). So, but acidifying the water, it helps those nutrients to be more readily available. Now, I use a much finer mix. I do this mainly because I can, first off (my container citrus being outside all year 'round), and secondly because I have to due to my very, very dry and warm summers (we get no rain to speak of all summer long, only in the winter). Otherwise, I'd have to be watering 3 times a day during the summer, which is not realistic. So, my mix allows for nutrients to be processed and made available, without running out of the bottom of the pot, so to speak.

Think of it in this way: It's like 2 freight trains full of products. One is going at about 3 mph. You can walk along side the train and take off whatever you'd like to - that's my container citrus. The second train, however, is going 100 mph. It you're going to get anything off that train, all the doors better be open, and the products falling off the train - that would be the more porous 511 or gritty mix.

This is the point I was trying to make - it may not be necessary to acidify your water. I do not and my trees do very well. But then, my mix is probably somewhere between the gritty or 511 mixes, and the actual soil in the ground. And, acidifying water isn't because citrus like it more acidic - it is helping the nutrients be more quickly available in a very, very porus mix with little readily available organic material (until the mix starts to break down as it ages). And Al, our citrus (especially younger citrus), will also become chloritic during the winter, and it IS due to the locking out of micros due to a combination of lower temps, our more alkaline soils and our heavy winter rains. So, we see both a general nitrogen deficiency chlorosis, as well as a manganese deficiency, and to a lesser extent, an iron deficiency (not really a true deficiency, as we have plenty of iron in our soils here, just that it becomes unavailable when these conditions exist). We use a cheleated micronutrient application like S.T.E.M. or GroPower's micronutrient product.

Mike, I would never doubt your incredible success, but as Al has pointed out, you're getting the results you want, but it is based on other reasons. Nothing at all wrong with that, I was just trying to make a fine, citrus cultivation point, as acidifying water has because synonymous on forums as "citrus are acid loving plants". They are not. I respect your incredible success with your citrus, I don't think anyone has done it quite like you have. Your trees are outstanding, and not just because your acidify your water, but because of all the other fantastic things you do to make your container citrus the envy of everyone on this forum.

Patty S.

WEll, what I have to say after years of growing citrus is that they do not like my tap water pH for long periods of time, even the ones I grow in mixes just like yours.
' Remember, I had the same pH tap water issues way before I started using the mixes now..I did not always use the mixes I do now and still cured my citrus health issues with citrus then:-)

My goal is not to use acidic water on them, but to bring the pH down to a more neutral zone that easily benefit them and it has never failed me until I stop this method.

Other than that, you make great points and I always appreciate your take on things, You are kind hearted and always willing to help:-)

Have a great night good friend"=-)

Mike

Mike, do you know what your pH is coming out of your tap? Mine is pretty alkaline - 7.8 to 8.3. And, I understand municipal water out in your area can be quite alkaline, Scott mentioned as high as 9.6, that's really high. I wonder if you're close to the municipal main, and it just doesn't get to travel far enough to lose a lot of that alkalinity? All I know, is whatever you're doing, it is incredible. And, I did forget to mention that your mix will last probably twice as long as mine, due to mine having much finer "fines". How is your greenhouse doing, btw? Looking forward to more photos of your trees growing in there!

Patty S.

Hi Bacon

Hows that kumquat tree above doing now. My seed grown Meiwa kumquat has been dead now for 2 years. I have a small grafted Meiwa planted outside in ground. I have harvested about 30 small fruits under an inch diameter. I was looking at old kumquat threads and remember your tree. Oh by the way I am a lot quieter now.

6b Steve

Hi Bacon

I now have 4 seed grown Meiwa kumquat that have all flowered heavily and 2 trees produced fruit. My grafted Meiwa is still growing and now planted outside in ground. Seed from my grafted Meiwa produced 9 trees 5 of which I gave to friends. How is yours doing.

Steve