My goodness!!

That is a sight to see whether they lay eggs on your citrus or not. Beautiful..I have never seen a live one..Only dead encased in glass..

Is there any way you could use a host citrus tree or move the eggs, leaf and all to another citrus tree you don't particularly care for?

Thank you for sharing. How nice of you.

MIke)

Yes, Beth. I would move the eggs over to your very largest citrus tree exactly as Mike suggests, if the eggs have been laid on one of your smaller, less mature citrus trees. Orangedogs can be pretty voracious. That looks like our Desert Black Swallowtail, btw, if you're wanting a correct ID. If the top of the wings are yellow, then this is the correct ID. The Giant Swallowtail's range does not extend west of the Rockies :-) This is the variety I see in my yard all the time. They are lovely, as gorgeous as our lovely Monarchs. You can try planting other preferred plants, such as Queen Anne's Lace, carrots (they like anything in the carrot family), and Fennel. But, of course, their favorite host plant is citrus.

Patty S.

This post was edited by hoosierquilt on Thu, Aug 28, 14 at 11:23

Thanks Patty, I was hoping someone would give me a precise ID! I just assumed it was a Giant because of its size and it being on the citrus tree. I have a large lemon tree I can move them to, or should I try to raise them? I also have fennel, dill and rue planted....

We actually have mainly the Western Tiger Swallowtail here - that is our main Swallowtail. But, for those who live closer to deserts or more inland, you may see the very beautiful (and also nearly as large) Desert Black Swallowtail. They are very large butterflies, as big or bigger than our Monarch. And, you can always try to raise them in a box. It is very fun to do, and if you have kids, a wonderful science lesson for them. Just do a Google search, "raising swallowtail butterflies", and you'll find lots of great instructions. It's fun to do, I've done butterfly raising with my girls when they were young. I would supply branches of citrus, fennel and dill for them in a large screened box, and enjoy. You might be able to find more eggs or even 2/3 instar caterpillars (which will look a lot like bird poop).

Patty S.

the pattern looks like Giant Swallowtail, and also the yellow body. plenty of them here in the Houston area.

found in Southern California also.

http://nathistoc.bio.uci.edu/lepidopt/papilio/cresphontes.htm

http://www.obsessionwithbutterflies.com/pdf/giant-swallowtail.pdf

Houston, I have not seen a Giant Swallowtail here in California, but the yellow body makes me wonder if it is. They are not really common here compared to the Western Tiger and the Desert Black. And, I don't see the telltale long bottom wing appendages, either. But, the yellow body is what's really making me think you are correct. That is a very telltale sign. Beth, where are you in S. California?

Patty S.

This post was edited by hoosierquilt on Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 10:52

I'm in Mission Viejo. Would the color of the egg help ID it? I found three little white eggs, but today I see an Orange egg near the others. The butterfly was HUGE too....much larger than the Monarchs. I love you all helping ID this! Thanks!!!

I just looked at those websites and a pic taken in Irvine of the Giant Swallowtail looks just like it! And the Orange egg on the otherwebsite is like the egg I just found. I'm tempted to try to raise it ....I'll look at the sites to learn how. I've actually thought about raising the Monarchs....I had so many caterpillars on my milkweeds , but only three right now, and they seem to have stopped laying eggs.

Beth, Monarchs lay eggs on milkweed. Swallowtails prefer citrus, fennel, dill, parsley, celery, carrots, and and other members of the Rutaceae family. And if your monarch is mostly black on top, it is a Giant Monarch. The Desert Black and Western Tiger Swallowtails are mostly yellow on top. If you're finding white eggs on your milkweed, it most likely is Monarch eggs. They are pretty teeny.

Patty S.

you might be interested in this thread.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/butterfly/msg111609422593.html?8

had a couple of the Giant Swallowtail cats a few years ago when i first planted my citrus trees on the south side of our house right next to the wall.

i transplanted them out to the open the following spring and haven't seen any Giant Swallowtail cats since. still see the adults flying around tho.

I have tons of swallowtails on my Buddleia. Black ones I can't identify (because I know nothing). And bumble bee moths, some orange, small butterflies (not monarchs, sadly) and many white ones.

I am in MD and wondering what type of yellow swallowtails we have here? Or at least the name...?

Thanks. Just curious!

Patty, I'll have to take a closer look at the Monarchs, I don't think they are black on top, but they seem to be decreasing in numbers. I didn't realize there was a "Giant" monarch variety. I have had tons of Monarchs and caterpillars on my milkweeds....The eggs are tiny. These eggs on the citrus are just a little bigger. I'm curious to see what happens next. Is there another butterfly that lays eggs on citrus that are white? I have one orange egg for sure, and several white, all in the same area on the citrus. I remember when I first planted my citrus trees several years ago I found this horrible looking thing with red horns that came out. I destroyed it! Now looking at pics I'm guessing it was a orange dog caterpillar.

Thanks for link to that thread, Houston, Great pics and info! I definitely had an Orange Dog a few years ago. I'm torn between raising it or just leaving it where it is, because it is in a protected area right next to the house. But it would be pretty cool to raise one....Is it true that the butterflies stay near the plant they were started on?

I'm sorry, I misspoke, Beth. Let me try this again: If your SWALLOWTAIL is mostly black on top, it is a Giant SWALLOWTAIL. If it is mostly yellow on top, it is another variety (probably Desert Black or Western Tiger). We have one Monarch in our area, just the Monarch butterfly. Sorry!! I was a little under the weather, yesterday, and just wasn't paying attention to what I was typing :-(

Monarchs' host plant are milkweeds. Not Swallowtails. So, two different butterflies we're talking about. Yes, Monarchs are winding down for the season, but you should be seeing their pretty striped caterpillars on your milkweeds now. And, plenty of Swallowtail orange dogs on your citrus trees :-) The Swallowtail eggs on the citrus will be bigger and rounder. The Giant Swallowtail eggs are usually orange. And, you could have more than one variety of Swallowtail eggs on your citrus. The Desert Black Swallowtail lays cream-colored eggs. The Western Tiger lays light green to deep green eggs. All are very spherical, and all are about the same size. And, it could be some other bug or butterfly as well. You can always clip that branch, put it in water and in a butterfly box to see what hatches, along with the Swallowtail eggs you've identified.

Patty S.

Thanks Patty! Ive got two eggs hatched but too small to take pics. They are they orange eggs and orange and black little cats. I'm still finding more of the white eggs on the citrus too! My family already thinks I'm crazy so why not grow butterflies???? I just might try to make a butterfly box next week. Thanks for all your help. This should be on the butterfly forum but I got much more interest here!

Sounds like Swallowtail orange dogs to me. The white eggs could be anything, butterfly or bug. Butterfly boxes are very fun, my girls really enjoyed them. I have literally hundreds of monarchs in my yard this year. I have lots of milkweed and I allow it to self-sow, which it does quite well. I should take a video and post it up, it is so much fun to watch them all floating about my yard.

Patty S.

Here is a link that might be useful: Giant Swallowtail Life Cycle

Thanks for that link Patty, I'll enjoy looking through that this morning with my coffee! The butterfly I took a pic of was mostly yellow on top, so I guess I will see what type of swallowtail caterpillar develops. So far it looks a lot like the pics in that site. I would love to see a video of your Monarchs. I had 5 Monarchs floating around my yard at once last month and just love it! I do have 5-6 of the Monarch caterpillars gobbling up my milkweeds again now too. Thanks for your interest and help! Its fun to share this obsession with someone that understands :) Post your video!

Oh, I can understand your obsession with them..If I had them in my yard, I would do all I can to make them stick around..

I guess for now I'll be obsessed with frogs...

They are beautiful..

Hello Patty))) Love the link myself. Thank you.

MIke

Glad to know I'm in good company Mike! Well what do you think? I have another question....will ants hurt it? And I have been spraying the citrus with spinosad alternating with neem....Have I been killing caterpillars?

This post was edited by socabeth on Sun, Aug 31, 14 at 20:01

Ok...I'm trying this....what do you think of this set up? A coffee filter fits perfectly over the top. But I'm wondering if it is too small. I'll cover it and put a branch in there when he gets bigger. Also, there are two in there....I read that one might eat the other? I thought I'd make sure they both are still alive before I separate them. I feel like a 57 year old kid! My kids are all grown.....they will think I'm nuts!
{{gwi:518315}}

I think that looks good to me. Just make sure they can't crawl out, lol!

Patty S.

Frankly, all this chatter about saving, or even raising swallowtail butterflies is a bit off putting; it is a major pest to the citrus industry and for that it reduces production and increases prices of citrus. As a citrus grower at the very Southern edge of that particular critter's habitat, I am glad that we have two native birds here that dearly love the orange dog caterpillars. For that reason, and for other beneficials, I do not have to treat for that pest. For anyone who is not familiar with the swallowtail, I believe it is the only butterfly that prefers to lay its eggs on citrus; and just one of those caterpillars can eat a whole limb of leaves.

Well John, Its the Beauty and the Beast, natures balance for most of us. I would hate to think that those of us that love the beauty of the Giant Swallowtail, and want to try to raise a few would really affect your crops. I can see why you would need to control them, but my yard is my sanctuary and I will gladly take those beautiful butterflies floating around in exchange for a branch or two of my citrus trees.

Notice that I did not denigrate you for liking/enjoying/propagating the Swallowtail; I only said that for a citrus grower it is a bit unsettling. Perhaps enjoyment and discussions about this particular species would be better left to someplace other than the citrus forum. It is more than a little bit insensitive to be promoting on the citrus forum what commercial growers who provide your market citrus are trying to eradicate. Of course butterflies are nice to look at; but suppose for a moment that in your garden sanctuary you particularly were fond of and propagated the Asian Citrus Psyllid... I doubt you would find the same support or encouragement. It is a bit of a difference in perspective; like the Redtail hawk, one of the larger falcon species and one which I like personally; it is protected in California; but when it migrates to Argentina it is hunted as a game bird.

This post was edited by Johnmerr on Thu, Sep 4, 14 at 19:11

John, it's a citrus topic because the Giant Swallowtail (and to a lesser degree, other Swallotails) host plant is the Rutaceae family, mainly citrus. So, the topic often pops up here on the forum. This is not the first time, so Beth has come to the right place. If it is off-putting for you, then, don't read the message thread. Yes - the Giant Swallowtail can be a real problem for some commercial citrus growers. For us hobbyists - and the vast majority of the forum members would fall into that category - we need to decide how we're going to handle this insect. So, you're going to find folks asking about what to do. You'll get the full spectrum of decision-making - live and let live, to complete removal. For me, I thin them out. I leave a few on my very mature trees, as they are part of our natural habitat. My native birds (Scrub Jays, California Towhee, Spotted Towhee, dragonflies) will eat them. The are some of the few predators that can. And, I enjoy how beautiful the adult butterfly is. For Beth, she is trying to balance nuture and nature the best way she feels is appropriate for her garden. You can't make the analogy with the ACP and the Swallowtail, two entirely different outcomes. And, the Swallowtail is a native, unlike the ACP, that has no predators at all, here. So Beth, feel free to chat about the Swallowtail butterfly, and what to do with them and your citrus. Same for anyone else. John, if this bothers you, skip the thread. I don't read all the threads on this forum, especially if I find a topic that doesn't interest me, or is "off-putting". If the topic is way out of line, and not germane to the forum, I'll post and suggest what forum would be better suited to the question, but this has everything to do with citrus, whether it is displeasing to you, or not. So, stop being a curmudgeon, and simply skip the thread :-)

Patty S.

John, I had no idea that the Giant swallowtail was such a pest to citrus growers or I never would have posted this here. If you notice my original post said. "is this a case of "be careful what you wish for?". Didn't mean to be insensitive or "off putting". I was just excited to capture the picture and asked the question. Good luck with your crops. Thanks to all for all the info! Beth

Haha Patty ! "Curmudgeon"!!! Thats one way to put it! I have to say thanks for your support because John, you burst my bubble! Well my babies are doing well ! ;)

Socabeth... most here know that I am on an unending quest to be an internationally certified curmudgeon; it is almost a badge of honor. Still I stand by my opinion that the citrus forum is probably not the place to be celebrating one of the industry's greatest pests... no matter how beautiful you think it is.

And I see you always have to have the last word! I wouldn't want that badge of honor. Geesh....trying to be nice sure didn't work!

You are very kind; and, if you wish, I will allow you to have the last word on this subject.

I don't need to! I always laugh at people that argue on the forum and can't believe I'm in this dialogue. We can't take life too seriously! I love my butterflies, you love your crops and I respect that! To each his own! :) I think you are probably a funny guy!

I found 4 Swallowtail Catterpillars this year, each one on a small citrus that could have been wiped out. I moved each one to to a different huge full grown citrus that they wouldn't damage.

If I found 50 Orange Dogs or I was growing citrus commercially, I might feel different.

One thing I found very curious is that I found a huge one, 3" long and nearly 1/2" wide on a small potted citrus with only two damaged leaves in the lower right side. They are in front of the pool edge coping in the picture.

How did it get there? It certainly didn't grow from egg to that size on this tiny tree.

This post was edited by GregBradley on Fri, Sep 5, 14 at 14:48

I rather enjoyed the different views on the swallowtail and I suspect John was smiling when he said he was trying to be the official curmudgeon of the site. Maybe he is a little gruff now and then but I think most of us here have received some very good advice from John. I'm a little surprised he visits the citrus forum since most of his work day is probably devoted to managing his orchard. Regarding the swallowtail, I'm curious now if it's is a native butterfly to our respective areas. I personally LOVE having butterflies in my yard but I don't let them eat my trees if I find them. I can't reach the tops of some of my trees, so they can eat where I can't reach.
By the way.....you wouldn't believe how beautiful the citrus leaf miner moth is when you see it under a microscope ;>)

John,

At the risk of being accused of always having the last word, I come often to this site for the reason most do... to learn!

I know a little about some things, especially Meyer lemons planted in the ground; but there is SOOOO much I still don't know. As I have said before, I am a specialist... that is a person who knows more and more about fewer and fewer things, until he finally knows everything... about nothing. The opposite is a generalist.. who knows less and less about more and more things, until he finally knows nothing about everything.
I learn something here every day, or at least when I can visit; it may not be about Meyer lemons; but, as my favorite uncle used to tell me... no experience is bad experience.

LOL! That's one of my favorite comparisons, specialists vs. generalists. I have always believed I was a generalist.

Oops, sorry for the brief side discussion. Carry on with the swallowtail topic!

Well Patty told me to go ahead and spread my good news....so I thought I'd share my GST caterpillar house! Because I HAVE to have the last word!!! John you are funny and knowledgable and I look forward to learning from you even though you are a curmudgeon. I do have lots to learn about citrus as you can all see.....and I come here to learn too. Boy did I learn.....LOL
{{gwi:534198}}

" Of course butterflies are nice to look at; but suppose for a moment that in your garden sanctuary you particularly were fond of and propagated the Asian Citrus Psyllid... I doubt you would find the same support or encouragement. "

John, Citrus is not native to the United States or North America. It was brought here as was the Asian Citrus Psyllid.

I believe the Swallowtail is native to North America.

Jane

Beth, nice swallowtail house! Do you have a caterpillar in there? The butterfly lays her eggs on the youngest leaf sprouts and the caterpillar mainly eats the young leaves so you might have to supplement if you find yours isn't eating. I have only seen a few that pupated; they were down close to the base of the trunk on some potted lemons.

Yes I have two in there munching away, and getting big!