Ok, I just took a pic of one of the bags and what's inside. I see no bark at all. I am now wondering if they loaded the wrong mix into the truck.
I know the owner I talked to knew what I was talking about because he says he orders a lot of the Fafard 52 mix that he uses to plant all his roses and mums, etc and usually uses it only commecially and has not really sold the 52 to a customer (actually he was surprised I even knew about their heavy weight mixes)
What I am wondering is if the helper who loaded it on my truck for me put the wrong thing on my truck.
The bag does not say 52 on it or any other numbered soil mix on it for that matter. There are some code numbers.
I just do not want to say anything until I absolutely know for sure that this is NOT the 52 mix, and is mostly peat with some perlite. To me, it looks just like my Pro-Mix.
What do you think I should do? I bought 5 bags! UGG! Christy

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Yes..That is the wrong mix..They loaded the wrong stuff Bonechickens!

Here is what it looks like....Loom on page 160 all the way at the bottom..

Here is a link that might be useful: 52 Fafard Mix

Thanks so much for answering me so quickly Mike! I was so excited to find this, and now I am sad! He said they buy the "loose mixes" so that is why I was not concerned about the bag being unmarked.
So, if I show him those pics, he should for sure be able to tell he gave me the wrong stuff? The pic seems like it is just peat and perlite, write? No bark or vermiculite which are suppose to be in 52? I could of sworn I saw a pic of 52 on here once, but could not locate it. It should be chunky looking, right?
Thanks again for answering me! I think I am going to try and email him. Hopefully it was just a loading error and this is not what he intended to sell me. An hour and half more driving!
I will post back soon! Christy

Christy..No problem...Here you go..Some pics of what the mix itself looks like:-)

Mike

Here is a link that might be useful: Fafard pics

Christy..No problem...Here you go..Some pics of what the mix itself looks like:-)

Mike

Here is a link that might be useful: Fafard pics

Thanks again so much Mike!

I did do a pic search before, but was not sure what was actually a pic of 52 or just related pics since I have never actually seen 52 for myself. Is there an exact pic you can tell me is the real 52? I only ask you because I know you have used it in the past and probably know what 52 actually looks like.
Are any of your citrus still in 52?

I have used 5-1-1 for a while now. However, this last batch of up-planting did not do well for my citrus. I did purchase a new load of Agway pine bark, and do not know if this was a bad batch or what, but everything is/was staying very wet. I have had plants I had for years now suffering from root rot. I am so sad over this! But I am really trying not to give up.
When I was sick and was almost ignoring the plants, they did just fine. As soon as I gave the ones with new transplanting, they are all staying really wet with this new batch of bark. They would go for over 2 weeks without water, and still be moist! I did everything, add more perlite, and even holes all over the pots, and they still stay wet in the middle. I bought a nice bunch of Four Winds trees as my "getting back into things" present to myself, and I have had nothing but problems.

I also found a rare Red Finger lime, and am so afraid to take it out of the soil it is currently in because I seem to be having such bad luck!

So that is why I was excited to get the Fafard 52. But now i just feel set back again. As you know, it is getting cold already, and I was trying to get them into new soil before winter, but it is not doing to well. So I am just hoping this was a mistake of loading and not what they actually ordered.

Anyway, thank you Mike for everything! You help me out so much! Christy

Hey Christy..

Once you click on that link, the picture of the mix will pop up at you..It is the bigger picture staring at you and a few others towards the top...Any soil you see is the 52 mix...

What about the mix you have now? Since you opened the bag, can you try it out..It actually looks kind of porous...
It may break down faster but it should last you a good amount of time before it does since Fafard is a great product...

I would try it out until you can get the 52...It looks much better than any other bagged mix I have ever seen and in fact that mix is commonly used in all the local nurseries doing well for them..

If you do use it, just make sure you plant your trees in a pot just a size or two up from your root ball..Leave about a half inch or two between the roots and the pot filled with mix...It should dry out rather quickly for you since the mix is quite uniform in size..

The problem with the bark you bought from Agway is that some bags come with bigger sized bark and tiny particles that can take forever to dry out..Then these fine particles settle lower in the pot while the bark stay towards the top leaving you a pot with very wet soil half way down and lower..

What I do to amend this problem with bags like that is strain out all the fine particles leaving you just the bark..
You would be surprised at how much comes out!
Then use 5 parts of the bark left behind adding only one part of the fines .
Also don't forget to use perlite.

If you for some reason if find yourself having to keep your plants in a mix that does not dry out fast enough, use wicks from under the pot or keep your plants in clay too..

Good luck and let me know what you decide to do..

Mike:-)

This post was edited by meyermike_1micha on Sat, Oct 26, 13 at 19:23

Hi Mike!

So, you do not think it has too much peat or is too fined? If I use this mix, should I add anything else to it such as perlite?
To me, it seems very similar to Pro-mix.
Thanks again! Let me know what you think, Christy

It looks fine for the time being...

Just be careful about watering too much...In fact, I think it will dry out much better than the mix you have been dealing with..

The purpose for pots just a bit bigger than the root ball is so it will dry out faster and the roots can fill in quick preventing root rot...Clay also alleviates potential rot issues..

You may have a problem with gnat and or dissolved salts by the spring, but I wouldn't worry about it for now..

I'll bet you can't wait to make the 5.1.1 properly and get them out of that mix now:-)

Mike

With the last batch of 5:1:1, I sifted the bark and even the perlite, and it still stayed too wet. I even moved the 3 year old Four wind trees from the recommended 12 inch pots, down to 2 gallon black nursery pots, and the mix still gave me issues.
So you think if I use this straight Fafard with no additives, it would ok for spring?
Since they will be in a warm greenhouse, should I still use Foliage Pro in a couple weeks or too late? Should I 10% bleach the roots?
Thanks again, Christy

Christy.....I am thinking too that maybe you did not wet the mix before you used it so that the very small parts could adhere to the larger ones...Too, some bark pieces can also be thin....It is strange but it should of been ok...Once I sifted out the bag, when it's DRY, you wouldn't believe the pwdery stuff and fine stuff that fell out.....Try sifting dry next time...Dump the whole bag in a hot sunny spot, and then when dry, sift..That should do the trick..

That mix will be fine..Trust me..In fact many people can grow citrus in mixes like that..You just have to keep a close watch on the structure and your watering habits..

If you want to add perlite, it never hurts, but I can't see a need too...

You don't have to bleach teh roots..And you can use Foilaige Pro in doses according to practice..
!/4 strength at every watering, or 1/2 strength once a week.
Make sure you use big enough saucers to allow free water to escape from the bottom...
Those nice plastic ones they sell at Lowe's or Home Depot with indents on the inside are awesome!

Question anytime...That is how I learned:-)

Mike

Ok. I will at least re plant some trees with the open bag until I hear back from the nursery (the owner was off, so waiting for his responce).
The bags were $20 a piece, so should I still see if I can bring back the other bags for the 52?

As for the open bag, should I not fully wet the mix, and maybe just mist the soil a little bit? I will take pics of some of the roots and post back.
So, I will start with the Oro Blanco. I have a couple of heat mats. Should I use one? Also, no bleach for the roots? Just trim the rotten ones?
Thanks again for the help! Christy

Just wanted to update....

After sending pics, the nursery owner was so sorry that the worker loaded my truck with the wrong mix.. He says the mix I got is a custom mix that has some lime added that they use for geraniums. I am keeping the one bag I opened, and did try it on a couple citrus along with some extra perlite. Hopefully the mix will be ok with the extra lime as I do not know how much is added.

But he is sending a truck to my house to pick up the other 4 bags and bring my the Fafard 52. I also asked him to order me coarse perlite. It comes in a 6 cube package (this must be huge!) and it is $40. I think that is fair in price?

I am sick of Home Depot perlite, I got a 2 cube bag and it is half dust! Even the Miracle Grow perlite was better than that junk. I screened over half the bag out. A waste.

Anyway, I will probably add just a little perlite to the 52 just because I want to be extra careful of draining since some of my citrus got some root rot from my last 5:1:1 mix (not to say 5:1:1 is bad, I still cannot figure out why the last batch I made put some of my citrus into root rot. For some reason it seemed the bark really stayed wet).

So just looking to see if someone could suggest a ratio of perlite to 52 mix?

Also, wondering if I should not pre-moisen the mix with straight water, and maybe just use the mix straight out of the bag if it feels moist, or maybe even just use a misting water bottle? I know, I sound very paranoid! LOL! But I have had half my citrus damaged from the last up-potting and hope they are not goners. Some I had for years.

Thanks for the help! Christy

Hey Christy..That is great news! Happy Fafard 52....lol

You would not have to wet it before use and the perlite ration is probably something that our good friend Mike could help you with...

I think it's pretty much a perfect mix as is...

I use to use it but I found the bark pieces a bit to big for my needs but still ten times better than any mix out there.

I hear you about the perlite..What a joke, right?

I think you will be very happy with the one you are getting and besides, there is always room for use of perlite! You can never have too much of that stuff around the house.

I think you will be very happy once you get it...Let us know when you do ok...?

Mike..Hello. I will send an e-mail to you soon buddy!

Mike

Thanks Mike!!!!!

Curious, why the large bark does not appeal to you? Are there issues I should be aware of or just on be on the look out for? As you can see, I have been very nervous now with me trying anything new.
It wouldn't hold more water being larger pieces, would it?
Thanks for the help (again)! Christy

No.it will be just fine...))

Mike here use to use it and his trees are amazing...In fact, Rhizo here reccommends it along with other heavy Fafard mixes for a good reason..It's great stuff....

I just like the feel of the 'Nursery' mix better and the looks...But both are top quality mixes! You can rest assure it will not let you down:-)

Hello, Mike and Bonechick!

Yes, Bonechick, there are problems with the large bark, which Mike explained earlier. When the bark is so much larger than the other particulate, the small particles migrate to the lower layers of the mix where they lodge between the larger particles and slow drainage considerably. With the 5-1-1, the particles don't need to be as uniform, but the particles do need to be in a range of sizes - from 1/2 inch to 1/4 inch to 1/8 inch and down to fine bark dust. And remember, the 5-1-1, as originally conceived, is recommended as a single season *Summer* mix - it holds more moisture by design - and those of us who use these mixes beyond the intended season or life-span, must take thought for how the mix behaves in our various Winter environments.

Eliminating peat entirely and replacing with a porous grit like Turface, Pumice, Scoria, or DE is one way to increase the durability and extend the life of the mix. Using coarse, rinsed Perlite will greatly reduce moisture retention. Screening the fine dust from the bark radically reduces moisture retention and makes for fast drainage - probably too fast!

I do screen out the fines when I prepare bark for a Citrus mix, but then I add a portion of the fines back in to the final mix in place of peat or potting mix. As I pot my plants, I stir the fresh mix constantly so that the fine Turface and grit doesn't end up on the bottom of the pot with all the bark at the top.

Josh

Thanks guys! Actually, I just opened a bag of the 52 and was quite surprised. I was expecting lage chunks of bark, after looking at pics online, but realized those pics made the mix particles look bigger than they actually are. To be honest, I thought it would have more bark (defintely smaller bark than my last bag of Agway bark). I am going to add some screened perlite to it just to make sure.
I will take a pic later and post the Fafard 52 in case this thread can help anyone in the future.
I asked. And the owner does not get the nursery mix. So pretty sure I have to stay with the 52. I really hope I can get my trees to bounce back.

Although it gets cold at night (I try to keep the heater at a minimum temp of 40F at night), I know they say roots will stop growing @ 50F. But all morning and day it gets to the 80's in the greenhouse. So although its cold at night, can roots still grow during the morning and day times when it is quite warm?

Hopefully. I can get an electrician out to put in a new box, so I can use a heater and heat mats at the same time, but right now, I can only use one of the other without blowing a fuse.
Maybe I should start this root thing in a new thread.
Thanks! Christy

PS to my last post,

Here are the pics of Fafard 52 (and one partial beagle head) as promised.

Do you think the mix looks good? I find the bark to not be as big as I thought it was. I thought the mix would be very chunky after looking at internet pics. I put the quarter there to help with size distortion.

Do you see any possible troubles or issues I could have with this mix? I still plan to add a small amount of coarse perlite.

BTWAgain, I thought this stuff would be way huge, but is not much bigger than what Miracle Grow sells. I have had 4 different brands of perlite lately, so it must be me and not the makers. Hopefully there is not much to sift out of this bag. When I think of coarse perlite, I think of the huge chunks you would see in an orchid mix.
Also, any thoughts on root growth in my previous post, I am still interested in. Thanks! Christy

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I haven't worked with Fafard mixes, although I do recommend a few specific blends based on the advertised ingredient proportions (such as the Nursery Mix, which you mentioned isn't available). Much of that material in the image could be bark...but in a fine, composted form. Hard to say. Good idea to add in a bit of coarse Perlite. And if you have any bark, sized 1/2 inch or less, you could add some of that. As is, the mix in the pic would seem to hold a lot of moisture.

Josh

It seems the more I read about 5.1.1, the more I want to make it..but I need some things clarified.

I am aware of the bark, moss, perlite ...I have the bark..I have sifted it...and have a lot of small pieces..I assume that is called fines.. So Josh, you use Turface or DE(which I do have) instead if the moss... to extend life...do you also put the Perlite in that same batch? And you put some of the fines back in. for your citrus....well, what about container tomatoes...would you add the fines back in that too? If so how much? I assume if you do the above it's still 5.1.1. amounts. Extending life..is that to use the following year? or why would you do that and not use the original ingredients?

Another question...when planting...I am reading to wet mix ..how wet...lightly or? I have also read ...if using the moss...to wet that too. before you measure it?

If using the foliage pro...daily.....do you add that at planting time...or wait a day or so? And when you do use it...do you water the container first..when you see water come out of the bottom..and I notice a saucer would be good...and then add the 1/4 tsp of FP. per gallon...how much of that do you put in each container.? I once called the company and they said...each gallon of water put into the container..needs the 1/4 tsp of FP..but that is not how I am reading it on this site...so just need to know what to do.

Do you also use the Pro tek from the beginning too....being that it's in the same

gallon as the 1/4t of FP..

I have house plants...bamboo palm, money tree, few others...I thought the gritty was recommended for those. Can the fines be used in that mix? I have succulents too? I have a lot of fines..

I keep reading 51.1 is for short time use...so why am I reading some use it for houseplants?

I am buying my ingredients tomorrow...and am anxious to get started.

Thanks .

Reading about the Fafard brand I tried to find the 52 locally..but those who had it were sold out. There is a map on their site where you can find out who in your area carries it..but when calling some didn't..so I called the Sungro company,( they now make the Fafard brand.). and they asked me where I lived..and they gave me the number of the sales rep who knows exactly who carries it. However..he told me that one of our local nurseries has their mix that they private label..It isn't the 52..but he says it's good) He also told me nursery mix and 51L Al likes is no longer available...Before I talked to him I talked to the tech at the sungro company...and he recommeded Black Gold..if you look on the sungro website..they have all their brands..they even make the sunshine brand.....I guess some parts of the country have their different brands.

I keep reading against vermiculte...so was trying to stay away from that...however I think 52 has it in it..but I could be wrong..but the ingredients are on the site..

This company makes a good many of the brands I located when I was calling around..that I found on their site....the rep I talked with was very nice..so I am sure they are willing to answer questions.

Yes, purchasing it already mixed would be so much easier...but I definitely want to make the soil for my houseplants...and succulents..and want to try the 5.1.1 too, for my container tomatoes.... I figured the best way to feel more confident was to ask about the things I have found confusing..

Hey, thanks for the info)

Honestly, NONE of their mixes can compare to what Farfard use to carry...They are ripping people off with a different product under the same mix name...I am honestly upset with the sun-geo company that they did not keep the original ingredients the size they use to be.

Now the 'Nursery' mix is a whole lot of crap, unless you screen out all the fine stuff which leaves you very little deco posted bark. It stays wet way to long, long enough to half to add twice the amount of perlite into each bag. I miss the old company and the old product for the same price or less(. It is not chunky anymore, fluffy when wet, but looks and feels like mud and is heavy after after watering now. Lift any plant after a watering out of the pot and the bottom half of the mix looks saturated and muddy.

They Farfard Nursery and 52 mix is a good a a regular ole bagged mix in my eyes. Nothing special anymore.

If you look at the Sungro site..they seem to have all the bagged soil companies under their roof...maybe even the ones the big box stores carry only under different names. I guess they bought the Fafard company... have you used the 52 since they took it over? I think the rep told me the nursery private label potting mix is 3B...but the tech at the sungro headquarters..told me to buy 380..but I doubt if anyone carries that...and they have to buy a pallet inorder to get any. Thanks for you comments..very interesting huh?

Oh yeah, very interesting...I don't believe a thing they say. Would you believe the Company that sells all their product can't even tell what their best draining mix is. The actual only smart person there told me it was the 'Nursery' mix that was best and to me it stinks. I can only imagine what the others are. He even admitted that not to many people are happy with the change and has lost customers because of it, even huge greenhouse orders who once depended on that particular mix.I look at the ingredients and the bag says it's the only one with 80% composted bark. It's a very barky mix that I want that could compare to the 5.1.1 and yet the bark inside looks like it was grounded up...Arg

Anyone still use the Farfard Nursery mix and the 52 mix? Is it different now than what they used to sell? I'm looking for a mix that's closest to the 511 mix. I don't have the patience to make my own potting mix.

Thanks for the help. May I ask which G&B Organics I should buy? I see more than one listed on their website. It's for Japanese Maples and conifers.

It would depend on what you're planting, but their normal organic potting soil or their blue ribbon blend are great products. For acid lovers they do make an acid-plant blend as well.

Pac, I wonder if they sell that kind of mix here in New England?

They should, it might take some digging. I believe they are a subsidiary of Kellogg, if that helps. Allegedly the Kellogg and Master Nursery brands are equally great for an aerated potting medium and essentially the same ingredients and proportions, the only difference is that the G&B line certifies all of their products as organic and is marketed as a more expensive brand ($11 / cubic foot around here). Hope that helps!