Don, GREAT THAT YOU POSTED HERE AGAIN. It has been a long time. You certainly have a very exciting plant. Is the plant a bi-foliate leaf, or is it a tri-foliate leafed with a missing bottom section? In fact you have many exciting citrus. I am going to HAVE to get down to you place and visit. BTW you took me off the SPS/palm forum of yours. Send me a e-mail, and put me back. Don are you going to the Expo, next week? I hope so. Your certainly exciting. - Millet

Hi Millet,

That first citsumaquat seedling has bifoilate and the second is trifoilate on the newest leaf. However it will take more growth before any stable form show's itself. Still the exciting thing is they are hybrids with even the slightest of a side leaf showing. Next spring I'll be making 100's of procimequat/poncirus hybrids if all goes well. That procimequat should not make a zygot even mixed with polyembryonic nucellars much less being monoembryonic like a pondersoa lemon. I don't know what's going on with such a happening but am thankful to have this plant.

Sorry but I can not get on that board myself because I lost my password.

I won't be going to the Expo.

Thank's for the reply.

Don,
I'm not an expert on citrus genetics, but perhaps there is some confusion here. I think the following statements are correct:
1.Monoembryonic simply means one seedling per seed.
2.Zygotic means a seed is the result of sexual fertilisation. A hybrid plant will be produced if pollen has come from a different species or variety.
3.Nucellar seedlings are not the result of sexual fertilisation, but are clones of the mother.

So, who says procimequat is mono-embryonic but does not usually produce zygotic seedlings? Has anyone ever researched this? In other words is your plant really so unusual as you suggest? Many monoembryonic varieties, such as the pummelo, do produce hybrids. In fact, I've been using pummelo for this very reason. See link below. But perhaps I should also try my procimequat plant for hybridisation experiments.

Here is a link that might be useful: Citrus hybridisation experiments

Most of this is over my head. Sounds neat, and if it means there will be cold-hardy, edible citrus someday, Im really excited.

Glad youre having such sucess!

Hi Mike,

Are not most of our citrus polyembryonic? Does not this polyembryonic nature of most citrus discourage breeding of many those citrus since the zygot get's crowded out? Tom McClendon told me when he sent the procimequat, "Hopelessly polyembryonic". What else could I have thought except breeding a procimequat with poncirus is likely a losy cause but still I gave it a try.

Now for your question of. "So, who says procimequat is mono-embryonic but does not usually produce zygotic seedlings?" No one says procimequat is monoembryonic but very polyembryonic with nucellars only. I am not a botanist but use the citrus bible wrote by botanist 'The Citrus Industry'. It said this from Volume 1 online.

"COMPLEX BIGENERIC HYBRIDS
Procimequat [(Citrus aurantifolia 'Mexican X Fortunella japonica) X Fortunella hindsii].
This very interesting complex hybrid, which has a triploid chromosome number, is the result of a carefully safeguarded cross-pollination of the Eustis limequat with Fortunella hindsii, a tetraploid species made by Eugene May and the writer expressly to obtain a triploid hybrid. Longley (1926, pp. 543-45, fig. 1) found it to be triploid, with 27 chromosomes in the somatic cells (18 supplied by the male parent, the Hongkong wild kumquat, and nine by the limequat).
The limequat fruits have from six to nine segments, as might be expected from a hybrid of the round kumquat (with four to seven segments) with the Mexican lime (with 10 to 12 segments). The Hongkong wild kumquat fruits have only three or four segments. The ovaries of the procimequat hybrid under consideration usually show from four to five segments.
The leaves of these hybrids are small but some of them show fairly vigorous growth (see fig. 3-36). The fruits set abundantly even on small young plants and are small and subglobose, much like those of Fortunella hindsii but a little larger and a much paler orange in color when ripe. These fruits are not seedless, as was expected, but produce some nucellar bud embryos, as do many citranges after the development of the ovules has been stimulated by pollination. Triploid limes are usually seedless.
This hybrid is interesting because it throws light on bigeneric Fortunella X Citrus back-crosses such as are possibly represented by the Malayan hedge lime discussed. The procimequat is in reality intermediate between a true bigeneric back-cross and a trigeneric hybrid, because Fortunella hindsii belongs to a subgenus, Protocitrus, with many important taxonomic characters separating it from the true Fortunella species placed in the subgenus Fortunella.
The name "procimequat" (given here for convenience) is derived from Pro[to]c[itrus X L]imequat"

Now Mike, what they wrote does not sound too favorable in using procimequat as a breeding tool. Tom McClendon did not think it could be use as a breeding citrus. Every description on the internet from .edu sites say it's polyembryonic only producing nucellars.

Now what was I too think?

Sure, I have found the polyembryonic/nucellar breeding lockout not to be true with procimequat but who am I to say such a thing. Should not I need to show a little evidence to my claim. How would the Board know I even have a true procimequat unless I posted a pic of the unique fruit. Perhaps I am the first person to try breeding the procumequat as a mother to anwser your question. "Has anyone ever researched this?"

Your question "In other words is your plant really so unusual as you suggest?". What was I to think yet how can I truly know. I wrote Tom McClendon on another board asking him to check the mother procimequat (to Mine) for it's status of germinating seeds to be mono or poly. Perhaps Tom's is mono too because I just can see myself being so lucky to have such a freak plant.

"But perhaps I should also try my procimequat plant for hybridisation experiments." Yes Mike, you should try.

Thank's for your reply.

Hi Don,
I should have sat down and re-read that section of The Citrus Industry before I replied to your post!
So, either The Citrus Industry is wrong, or you have an individual specimen which is different from the norm, or your plant is not in fact a procimequat. I can't think of any other possibilities. But if it's not a Procimequat, then it's probably a hybrid of it, and The Citrus Industry is wrong again, because it suggests hybrids don't occur. Agree?
In fact, I suspect none of the statements about polyembryony and zygotic seedlings etc. are ever 100%. I suspect that, just like 'seedless' limes sometimes have one seed, sometimes fertilisation happens in normally non-zygotic varieties. Maybe, somewhere along the line, that has happened with your plant, and it is a Procimequat hybrid.
There's another reason I think that - the shape of the fruit on your plant. I was given some budwood, said to be Procimequat, a few years ago. It is fruiting at the moment, but with the English weather, not yet ripe. However, the fruit so far seem very similar to Fortunella hindsii; round and not at all elongated like yours. Mine do look like the picture at fig. 3-36, and the statement "fruits are subglobose, much like those of Fortunella hindsii".
Anyway, your pictures are very interesting and clearly show you have produced new hybrids with trifoliate somewhere in their ancestry. A very useful mother plant if it accepts Poncirus pollen so readily. I hope the seedlings don't take too long to flower, and the results are up to your hopes! Keep us posted.

Hi again Mike,

I also do that ole "Jumping To Conclusions" mistake all the time so don't worry about it.

You have my mindset on this issue now understanding what we are dealing with. There could be 3 or 4 different possibilities but one thing is happening for sure and that is it's being purely monoembryonic and can easily be used as a mother for hybrids. I don't think it's too outrageous to be excited about a super cold hardy, fast to mature, kumquatish, monoembryonic breeding machine. Monoembryonic and cold hardy just don't seem to go together far as I know and it hurt's the goal of breeding that magic cold hardy edible citrus. There are so many factors about this I would like to converse about but they will have to wait for another post because I need to get back to work before the sun goes down.

Don_OKC I would like to see more of you here

Hi Richard,

I like posting about what's going on with the citrus but often it's a matter of the old saying. "Hurry-up and wait."

Don_OKC I was in the Army, and know what you saying LOL

To All Interested,

Tom McClendon wrote back about the procimequat on another board and here is what he had to say.

"Don, your seedling was one I grew from a seed collected at the Citrus Arboretum in Florida. The parent there was a typical polyembryonic, so I think you just got lucky. Don't ever buy a lottery ticket -- you've already won.
I have to say that looking at the photo of your procimequat fruit, your tree does not look typical. Typical pro fruit is very small and round, not oval like yours. Yours looks like it could be a Nagami x Pro cross. If so, that could explain the mono nature of your plant. That would be cool."

Think I'll name this plant if indeed hybridized from a procimequat a 'Monoquat'.

Yes, so Tom agrees that you have a Procimequat cross!
A Nagami hybrid was also my immediate reaction from the fruit shape.

Hi Mike,

Next spring if my citchangsha (poncirus x 'changsha') will bloom I would like to cross it with the monoquat making this:

([(Citrus aurantifolia 'Mexican X Fortunella japonica) x Fortunella hindsii] x Fortunella margarita)__X__(Poncirus trifoliate 'English Large' x [Citrus reticulata x Ichang papeda])

Of course this is taking the liberty that Changsha is indeed a intergeneric hybrid hybrid of citrus & Ichang. I don't know how to correctly bracket all that hybridizing either.

Wow-amazing stuff. I have never tried hybridization in my life but that's awesome!

Are the crosses all evergreen, or do they show signs of being decidious like a Poncirus? That, to me, would be the first indication of true hardiness.

Considering that Poncirus can grow here in protected areas outdoors...that would be awesome!

From what I have seen the 50/50 citrus/poncirus hybrids are semi-deciduous in colder locations like mine. My citrumelos seem to always loose most leaves by late winter but will often still be green at Christmas. A low around 15*f will drop the leaves on citrumelo.

The 1/4 poncirus hybrids like citrangequat are far more evergreen holding leaves unless it get's cold enough to kill the leaves and stems as well.

One 50/50 citrus/poncirus hybrid that might be worth a try in a very protected zone 6 microclimate is CitChangsha (poncirus x changsha). CitChangsha is almost hardy as pure poncirus. A dude I know in Kansas City has seen his CitChangsha survive -10*f untouched. My CitChangsha specimens have only been down into the single digits which is nothing in testing their cold hardiness.

I don't know why but there is something about citrus that I like more than any other plant. Ever since I was a very young child I have dreamed of growing citrus outdoors in Oklahoma. Some say edible and hardy can't be done but I think it's just a matter of try & try again. The tools are out there with poncirus, Fortunella and Ichang. We just need more folks breeding citrus for the numbers in favoring finding that magic plant.

@ Don_OKC

this thread is old, I know but I like you to ask some more information about the CitChangsha from Kansas City.
Is this one related to US 852?
If you have any information, I highly appreciate.
Thank you

I'm not sure if I should bump an old thread like this, but I've been looking for more info on cold hardy citrus, anyone have an update or successes of late?

cold hardy citrus

http://hardycitrus.blogspot.com/2014/01/cold-hardiness-table_13.html

I have two of a variety which I believe originated from a seedling from a MIC, it may well be the same thing if it was a nucellar seedling. This hybrid variety is very intriguing and hard to find.

I'm not sure if its seeds are nucellar or zygotic (or possibly a mix) but I eventually plan to attempt hybrids.

Many nucellar varieties can sometimes produce a zygotic seed, if you're willing to grow out enough seedlings to find them. Grapefruit seeds are somewhere around 10-30% zygotic. If I remember correctly, to develop the citrange they originally had to grow 1000 seedlings from the Orange female parent, and identified only about 4 of them which had trifoliate leaves, which they kept. But Orange is very nucellar.

Tangelo is 83-97% nucellar.

Don't mean to bump an old thread are there any updates for this plant? Where is everyone sourcing their tricimequat seeds? The original thread is 14 years old so surely the plants would have put out some fruit by now lol

That's not so unusual. Even strict polyembryonic varieties can occasionally very rarely produce a zygotic seed. Some citrus varieties might produce 70-99% nucellar seed, and 1% zygotic seed.

some definitions:

polyembryonic- more than one seedling sprout grows out of each seed; typically such seedlings will be nucellar, but it is possible though less likely just one of them could be zygotic

monoembryonic - only one seedling sprouts from each seed; typically an indicator of being zygotic

nucellar- the seedling that grows from the seed is an exact genetic clone of the parent from which the fruit came from

zygotic- the new seedling is a result of sexual genetic recombination from pollination