Good morning, Nancy!

I'm one of the least experienced citrus growers, but I hope I can still be of some help ;)

In my area, we grow the Owari Satsuma as our prime mandarin crop. These are the guests of honor
at the Mountain Mandarin Festival, which is held each year during the third week of November.

They are easy to peel, they don't require other pollinators, and they ripen early (here).
They do need a bit of chill before the fruit gains its full sweetness, though.
It can easily handle your Florida cold...in fact, it might be the lack of cold that presents difficulty...

When the Owari Satsuma is past its crop, we begin to eat tons and tons of Clementine mandarins.
'Dancy' is another variety, but I think it's very common in Florida, and who wants common, right? ;)

Anyhow, I hope this gets the ball rolling!

Josh

Thanks for the link Josh...I was actually thinking of Satsuma, one of the local nurseries said he can order one for me...but all he said was it was a "satsuma"...I have No idea if there are different varieties so I'm at his mercy. I called all the nursery/stores that carry citrus and this is the only one that can get the satsuma for me...which does have me a little worried? Does it mean it doesn't do well here...maybe I need to find a variety that does well in FL but can take the 20's...do you know if Dancy can handle those temps? Thanks for the advise...

hi pug, satsumas have many varieties and owari is the most common in california and does very well in these climates. but, I believe that florida has other varieties that are well adapted and suited to that area. I would recommend that you search out varieties that are not commonly sold in stores for backyard culture because, in season, our farm stores sell satsumas or navels for 49 cents a pound (though some might argue that home grown fruits do not compare to store bought and hence all varieties are good). I have acquired some rarer varieties recently to try growing them at home - Kishu seedless, Gold Nugget, Yosemite gold and Pixie. Of these only the kishu and the gold nugget have fruited for me so far - and both are excellent and keepers (to such an extent that I bought a second one of these 2 varieties to grow in pots - Gold Nugget is summer bearing - so I get fruits in June in my yard!). I have a ten year old clementine which is delicious and winter bearing. So, I recommend all these varieties!
From looking at all your pictures, I know that you will do a great job with whatever you choose to gow. So, happy shopping!

Hey, Nancy!

Maybe these links will have some good info! ;)
I just found them. It looks as though Dancy has fallen out of popularity for a couple reasons:
easily damaged fruit, a tendency toward alternate bearing (heavy one year, light the next),
and the occurence of seeds in the fruit.

University of Florida - Dancy Tangerine

And from this link: University of Florida - Satsuma mandarin

"'Owari' is the primary satsuma cultivar commercially grown in Florida,
but two other cultivars, 'Silverhill' and 'Kimbrough' are also available."

Josh

Thanks for all the advise and info Ashley...very helpful! I appreciate it!

Josh, thanks for the links...I'll do doing some reading :o)

Don't worry about the cold where you are...I am much further north with many mature varieties...for taste, nothing beats a Florida Honey Murcott......

Thanks Wilminton, I actually LOVE Honey Murcotts as well, its one of my favorites. I decided after some research thanks to the help of Josh and Ashley that I'm going to try a Satsuma for two main reasons...cold hardiness and "less" seeds,lol! Almost all the tangerines I've had is always loaded with seeds and it would be nice to eat some with just a few. I'm lucky enough I'm able to purchase honey murcotts here quite reasonably, usually the satsumas are more pricey when I'm able to find them.

I actually just ordered a Satsuma tangerine today from a local nursery...he said it could take a couple of weeks to get it in? I'll keep you guys posted "if" or when it comes in. Wish me luck and thanks everyone for the advise and suggestions.

I was a little worried that the Satsuma wouldn't grow well here in Central Fl...but was told by a few nurseries that they should do fine here, but they aren't as common here as they are in Northern Florida.

Great choice, Nancy!
I think you'll be quite delighted by the squat little fruit!

I had a Satsuma today with my lunch...not a single seed yet! ;)

Josh

Thank you Josh and Ashley..I can always count on you to help my friends here.

Wilmington, I enjoyed reading your kind words..

Pug, if I knew anything about growing in-ground, I would help you too..Welcome to these forums..It is so nice to see you on this side..Please keep coming back..The more the merrier..Please stay here with us..Your trees are always pleasant to the eyes and to see you ask for help is such an honor for many to help you.

I hope a few more with experience of growing trees in-ground help you out

Josh, look at you doing all that research and and spending time to help Pug out..It makes me proud to know you here on these forums!

Ashley you too are so very kind and helpful..Thank you for helping a friend in need! You are doing a great job..

p.s.
On the Gardening program that I listen to every Sunday, a fellow from Four Winds Growers
was talking about cold-hardiness of different varieties and he mentioned that the Satsuma
can handle temps down to about 24ðF. Kumquat can handle even colder, apparently.

Hey, Mike! ;)

Josh

Owari Satsuma is a good choice for manderin. Only problem with them, is if you have grapefruit, or lemon trees nearby, they get very seedy! I have that situation with 2 owaris', very sweet fruit, but seedy as all get out! (makes great juice though..)
Jerry

Hi Nancy. Good luck with your new tree! I planted a tangerine this year too. I chose a Ponkan. I've never tasted one (not grown commercially here), but they are supposed to be great. That's partly why I chose it, I wanted a variety that isn't easily available at the store. I will protect it from the cold initially (not entirely clear if that is necessary), but after it is established, it will be fine on its own.

Near me there is a great place called the showcase of citrus. It is a great place to go to learn about citrus. They have u-pick (which is very fun), and you can wander around and see many varieties of trees and what they look like full size. It was also very informative to go there after last winter's cold and see what took damage. On the whole, tangerines, grapefruits and oranges did fine. Some crop loss, and minor tree damage. Lemons trees were badly damaged and limes were pretty much all killed outright.

The owners are very friendly and answered lots of my questions about growing various varieties. I originally wanted to try growing a Honeybell (Minneola Tangelo). If you haven't ever had one, seek out a grower in January & buy fruit - hands down the best citrus I've ever tasted! Right up there with mangos for me. But I decided against one since the growers at showcase of citrus describe them as "frustratingly difficult" to grow. However, they said the Ponkan is easy to grow as a dooryard tree and has a similar flavor profile to the Honeybell - here's hoping=)

Here is a link that might be useful: Showcase of Citrus

Great link, Sun Worshiper!
I enjoyed the video tour!

Josh

puglvr1

Congrats on your mandarin purchase. Mandarins are my favorite fruit!

You made the right choice with an Owari Satsuma as it is the standard all other Satsumas are measured by. As your goal is to not protect the tree at all during your mid 20's lows, you have chosen well. The fruit will suffer if you get a mid-20s freeze in November, when it's nearest ripe (that's when it's most sensitive to cold damage).

The varieties that AshleySF listed above ARE superb when grown where we live in CA, they are in my top 10 favorites. But growing mandarins in your area of Florida is probably not the same as here. Not only are you worried about cold protection for the tree itself, but fruiting (the process, not the fruit) can get thwarted by early freezes. This is why many later varieties (i.e. past Christmas) like Gold Nugget are not grown in many areas.

In case you are concerned about seediness, I have not experienced what JerryTx has with Owari's being very seedy if grown next to other citrus. Maybe it's a different variety he is thinking of....

Satsumas produce no (or very few) ovules so even if pollen is delivered to a satsuma pistil it does not produce many seeds. I help a friend manage a small 2 acre plot of Owari's that has lemons and oranges in the same grove, not counting the hundreds of trees surrounding the area. Where I live you really can't throw a rock without it hitting a lemon, grapefruit, or orange tree. So far this season I've eaten 25lbs of local Owari Satsumas (and counting) and only 3 have had any seeds.

As mentioned above the Murcott (Honey Tangerine) is very tasty and popular there. So is the Dancy tangerine. Another popular satsuma variety is Browns-Select. The links above to the various UFL document are very good sources of info. But in case you wanted to read a short article specific to Florida about Satsumas and a few mandarins, here is another link

Here is a link that might be useful: Satsumas in Fl

Great link, Al!

Josh

Glad you enjoyed the link Josh.

cebury - Thanks for the nice link. I'm very happy to see that Ponkan gets a good review. Can't wait for mine to fruit=)

Puglvr:

Just a basic FYI about citrus cold hardiness that experienced gardeners in zones When someone says a particular tree is very cold hardy, they are likely NOT referring to the fruit but rather than scion. They are usually addressing concerns over losing the entire tree due to freeze. Even though the rootstock may survive, you'd start over by either tearing it out or try to graft a new citrus onto it.

The vast majority of citrus fruit will be damaged if exposed to temperatures under 28F. Those considered more "frost prone" are only separated by a mere 4 or so degrees. But keep in mind actual cold exposure gets fairly intricate. Ambient temps are not at all the same as what the fruit will experience due to all sorts of things, even where the fruit sits within the canopy of the tree.

Sun_worshipper: I have a young Ponkan and also hoping it develops and fruits well. I do recall reading an opinion that the fruit do not taste as well in arid zones like my area (Central CA) as they do with more humidity like within Florida. Sort of vice versa as Wash Navel fruits. But I'll give it a try anyway.

Chris

Wow, thanks Josh, Wilmington, Mike, Cebury, Ashley, Sun worshiper and Jerry! I haven't revisited this post for a while...sorry for the late reply! I thank you all for taking the time to help me and give me some great advise. Sounds like I made the right choice. I've been busy protecting and covering my Mango trees...had 2 nights for freeze already(27-28) degrees...exactly the reason I'm picking fruit trees than can handle these temps without protection, I don't want to do this anymore than I already have too,lol...

Thanks for the links Cebury and Sun Worshiper...Good choice on Ponkan as it turns out! I love tangerines!

I haven't heard back from the nursery...but he did say at least a couple of weeks...I bet it will be longer since we've had some major freeze temps in FL and will get a couple more next week...so I'm not holding my breath. I don't mind waiting even a month or so...as long as he can find one for me?

Chris, I guess you and I were posting at the same time...check out the "exact" time we posted,lol...

Thanks for the very helpful info your provided about rootstock and cold tolerance. I'm pretty confident they will use the correct rootstock(hopefully) since these are supposedly grown in North FL where its much colder in winter than I am...I believe that's where this nursery (wholesaler) is getting one from?

Nancy

I have about thirty trees in the ground. I like tangerine/tangelo hybrids for their flavor. Hence the handle, Tantanman. They are so good, I don't mind the seeds. My favorite is Page, and I have three. I also like the Clemintine/Orlandos and I have Faichild, Nova, Bell, F-6-10 (unrealeased by Dept. of Ag.),
Bower, and Robinson which also is technically in this group. On a given year, one of my Clem/Orlandos will be as good or better than any of the other varieties.

I dont grow Murcotts and Minneolas because they ripen late here, and they can freeze before they have enough sugar.
Sugar depresses the freezing point. Also, I can buy them so I grow those I can't buy.

I am down to two Satsumas. Satsumas are dissappointing since they are not sweet in the years we have a hot August. Mine are Kimbrough and Brown's Select. I also
have Miho, but it is not a real Satsuma, it is a hybrid of a Satsuma and an orange, and therefore is a tangor.

I also have Fortune and Clem/Murcott. Two more fine hybrids. They also compete with the Clem/Orlandos.

I have three Ponkans. A large "plain Ponkan" that is not at all "plain", Ponkoa, and Soh Himtra. Of these, Ponkan is best. Ponkan used to be called "Chinese honey mandarin".

Ponkan may be a good choice for you too.

Correction: F-6-10 above should read F-6-9-10.

According to Cebury's link Robinson is better than other hybrids and I believe that may be a regional choice, N. Fla., maybe. Fairchild, Nova, and F-6-9-10, and sometimes Bell and Lee, are usually better here.

Ponkan is less seedy than Clem/Orlandos but more than Satsumas. Ponkan has excellant fruit quality.

I too have disappeared for a while to protect my trees from cold. Today is warmer - yay!

Chris, cool that you have a Ponkan too. Be fun to compare notes on flavor when our trees are old enough to fruit. It is so interesting how the same variety of plant does differently in different climates. I moved to FL from Seattle, and wow is growing plants here different!

Thanks tantanman for the info on Ponkans. That is an impressive tangerine collection you have! I considered a Page also, but couldn't find a source to get one on a dwarf rootstock. So great to hear that Ponkan is a good one. I am now even more excited for my tree to be big enough to set fruit. On that front, what is the rule of thumb for how much establishing (either measured by time since planting or tree size) you allow a tree before letting it fruit? Here's my tree:

{{gwi:648043}}

I planted it in early fall, and it was grafted 1 year ago.

Nancy, if you haven't purchased your tree yet and are having trouble finding one, I got my citrus from Briteleaf Citrus (link below). They were great! Very friendly and answered my detailed questions regarding rootstocks etc via email. The trees shipped fast and arrived in beautiful condition. Best of all, they were the only source I could find that currently has any dwarf rootstock available. I know how much you like small trees=)

Here is a link that might be useful: Briteleaf

Puglvr:
Dancy has been grown in S.E. Tx dooryards for a long time and as a result a number of them have outlasted their owner and a few have survived even when the home has vanished. That means they are among the cold hardiest of the mainstream citrus.

Sun worshiper:
Several fruit sizes of Ponkan are available. If yours is of a larger size, you should remove all for at least two years.
Er.. Well maybe keep one in year two.
Then in year three, thin to keep from overloading. I lost a large branch of my tree last year in year 5. Howling north wind and a dozen large mature fruit were too much.
You can help yourself some by not letting the tree grow too long between nodes. Ponkans tend to "get leggy", and this can result in extra long branches that whip around in even a moderate wind. Dont be afraid to limit node lengths 8 to 14 inches by pinching top buds.

Tantanman, do you have Sunburst tangerine? What do you think about it and how well does it compare to others?

Rob;
I wish I had a Sunburst. I grafted a tree from a sunburst seedling once but I wound up not planting it since racoons stole the labels and I mistakenly planted two Tonkan seedlings instead. I later got another Sunburst but was out of room to plant it at the time. Anyway I now have two great Tonken seedlings with super flavor and they make a ripe cadmium red-orange fruit slightly earlier than any hybrids.

I once tasted a Sunburst and a Fairchild that were growing side by side at Rio Farms in the Rio Grande Valley. The Sunburst was as sweet as the Fairchild! Sunburst has a good reputation for cold hardiness. It may be a little less seedy than some of the other Clem/Orlando descendants.

It ripens after Fairchild and before Bell here. About Jan 5th to 10th which is slightly late here. I think acidity is similar to or slightly more than Fairchild, but less than Bell. The only knock I know is on some years they tend to get bad infestations of citrus rust mites on the fruit. This is easily treated. There is no perfect fruit.

Larry

Tantanman, Thanks for the information. Nice to know that it is a good one.
Robert

Thanks tantanman for the advise on shaping and fruiting a new Ponkan! I will definitely take an active role in shaping it as it grows. One of the branches it came with was clipped to keep it small enough to fit in a shipping box, and it has a vigorous sprout growing off of it at an awkward angle. That sprout won't make a good structural branch. I plan to leave it alone until spring so it has maximum energy for winter. In the spring, I want to prune to try to get the branch that is growing the awkward sprout to send out a couple new sprouts as new scaffold branch candidates. How vigorous do you find this variety? What I'm wondering is if I should remove the awkward sprout entirely, or just make a really hard pruning cut on it to try to get its parent branch to branch further? What do you think? Things are crazy with the holidays and all, but after that I could post a picture of the area I'm talking about if it would help.

Hi Josh, I finally picked up my Satsuma Tangerine(7 gal) for $40...it wasn't too bad only took about 5 weeks to get it,lol...I will have to "pug" this tree in Spring, it definitely needs a nice trim!

Here it is...I will plant it in the ground in Mid March after the freeze threat is over.
{{gwi:648046}}

I also wanted to share my Kumquat and Calamondin trees, they weren't phased at all with our low to mid 20's that we've had several times already...my Dwarf Meyer took a really bad hit though, it looks alive but the leaves all fell off during the last freeze :o( My Mango trees took a beating as well **sigh**

{{gwi:648049}}

{{gwi:648052}}

Calamondin...some of the fruits froze, but the tree did great!
{{gwi:648056}}

Thanks again everyone for all the help and advise on the tangerine...I hope this tree does well for me, can't wait to taste some fruits soon.

Nancy, this is fantastic!
Hello, and warm Winter greetings...I've missed you.
I hope your daughter's visit was refreshing.

I have heard that the Kumquats are the hardiest of the citrus...and it sure looks true! ;)
Your trees are full and beautiful.

The Satsuma is in definite need of a good sound pugging, but I think it was worth the wait
at that size and price. You'll have it shaped up in no time.


Josh

Thanks for the tip on Briteleaf sun worshiper. They have all 4 mandarines I am interested in. Now which comes first a lifting of the USDA restrictions or my move to Flordia.
Dan

Thanks Josh! I've missed you as well and many of my friends here :o)

My daughter and I had a wonderful time...so much fun, she's gone back and I miss her already!

I have owari and brown's select satsumas here in south alabama. Haven't had any issues yet with freezing after 6 years in the ground. Got down to 15 last year with no difficulties. Only protection was some pine straw around the bases. In fact all my citrus have done well with the cold. The only issue I have had was this past spring my meyer lemons bloomed early and then we had another freeze. The crop of lemons was very small after that. I have calamondin, satsumas, navel oranges, kumquat and blood orange trees. They have all done well with the temps here so you should be perfectly fine.

Thanks for nice response woodrok! I'm so happy to hear that about the Satsuma...actually that's the same variety I have also (Owari). The main reason I decided on Satsuma is for that very reason. I'm tired of covering/heating my trees, I already have to do it to my inground Mango trees! I will wrap the graft/trunk during a hard freeze for the first couple of winters till it gets acclimated. I don't mind doing that.

Pug!!!! Where in world was I that I missed this thread???

What stood out at me was those GOERGOUS trees! You never cease to amze me Pug!

I have some catching up too do on this one.
What also stood out at me is all the responses from all these very helpful people. Bravo!

OK, now I need to read this thread over before I go on..I saw the word pugging briefly, lol, I wonder what that means?

Hope your having a happy New Year along with everyone else here.

Hey Mike, SO nice to see you and thank you for the nice comments on my Citrus. Wish the Mango trees were doing half as well...can't win them all.

Lol..."pugging" is a term OhioJay from the tropical fruit forum coined for me because I've been known to give my Mango trees and my Kumquat and Lemon trees "drastic pruning". I thought it was very cute :o)

See the photos below and you will see why he called it "pugging" or "pug" your trees,lol...

These were taken before the "freeze killed it last winter(2009) **sigh**

Before "pugging"
{{gwi:581956}}

"Pugged"
{{gwi:581957}}

5-6 weeks later...
{{gwi:581958}}

Basically my idea is to keep the tree short and wide, which makes it a lot easier for me to protect during the winter/freeze...I also prefer them short and wide, so its much easier to protect, spray and harvest the fruits down the road. Just my own personal preference...hence OhioJay
gave it the nickname "pug" or "pugging" your tree,lol..

Puglvr:

I believe it is best to groom citrus to the classic style of the proverbial umbrella shape which has its skirt at ground
level when fully loaded with fruit. This gives max protection from sun scald and cold.

Those living in coastal S. Ca. may get away with other cuts on citrus, but most of us are best served with traditional pruning methods. The Satsumas generally grow somewhat to that shape with naturaly spreading and drooping
limbs.

I like the kumquat but prefer to have less fruit exposed on top since they are seldom ripen on the upper Texas Coast until late winter. And I like to get that look by leaving a little more foliage on top rather pruning off fruit that will likely be damaged in a freeze like we had last year.

I have to top my trees from time to time. Since they grow in raised beds with hand mixed soft sandy clay soil, it is difficult to work off tall ladders. So I try to limit myself to an 8 ft step ladder especially since I turned 70. Still they that is a lot of trimming. Some varieties grow more than 5 ft a year when I use good native mulch.

Larry

Thanks Larry...great advise on pruning Citrus. My mango trees are usually the ones that get " Pugged", although I also prefer short squatty trees for my few citrus. Since I'm short I guess I prefer to keep my trees short as well,lol...so its much easier for me to protect during freeze and pick the fruits much easier. Luckily, the kumquat is very cold hardy, upper teens I think? So far, I've never seen it that low.

Thanks again for the great advise.

"Pugging"? Almost like in-gorund Bonsai's! lololol
I love that coined term since you are Pug and you own a pug!
Funny thing is Nancy, although you trim that back that hard, that turn out so beautiful in form and appearance. I just love the shape of your trees. Can you come up and "pug" mine.?lol
So sorry to hear about some of your plants. We all know what a shame it is to loose any plant, especially to the dreaded frigid weather no one has any control over.
Guees what? I finally got my "Red Horn" tree to roots, and that rare one from Japan, Jade that is..Yahhooo
Keep "pugging" away my friend.:-)

Hey Larry: Thanks for that info. Very good info for all. It is great to see you here again, actively sharing what you know. It is much appreciated as always.:-)
I would take your advice in a heart beat if I grew mine in the ground, although I suppose this can apply to container ones too.