I have bought clematis locally but at $18. a pot they are a bit hard for me to budget for, being a very senior citizen trying to make ends meet on SS. My local grower sells me heirloom tomatoes and the Blue Horizon ageratum I love so much. His hostas are out of sight- at least, out of my sight though he sells huge amounts to retired city people. I'm happy to buy the stuff he raises himself but a lot of it is bought in from wholesalers, same as Walmart does.

My only local nursery doesn't grow anything there. It is all brought in from someplace else and has nothing nearly as exotic as clematis. This is a pitiful town. I have to go to the next town over to even get to Lowes so with the price of gas I will scoop up all the discount plants I can get ahold of and I too like the fun of trying to save the half dead stuff. I am amazed anew each year when something makes it through the winter. I enjoy my pass along plants and clearance ones just as much as the ones I pay dearly for.

PPAF is the only way a company/breeder can safegard against a rip off artist like Walmart and the likes. Forty bucks is not the going average price at most nurseries for a clematis. And if you buy as you say you do from mostly mail order companies then after shipping you are paying on average 20 to 30 bucks a plant. I'm not againts a good buy but let's put it in to perspective and when you get that throw away at a bargain basement price let's refrain from comparing it to a nursery plant. Nurseries overwinter what they don't sell. Offering a much stronger, well rooted plant the next year. I have a few potted clematis that are 8 years old. What are they worth? Walmart and the likes will sell below their cost to squeeze out the little guy. How can they afford to do that? Because they can makeup for it in other departments. Don't anyone take this post as a personal attack. It's just how I see it, IMHO Gianty.

Walmart does not rip off a company or breeder as far as their clematis go. They purchase their clematis plants from Roseville, a known supplier of clematis to many wholesale buyers throughout the country. If you want to purchase a larger plant at a local nursery, then do it. I have done it myself when I find something I want, but I also see nothing wrong in any form or fashion by purchasing smaller plants and growing them out in a one gallon pot and in a few months having a one gallon sized plant at a fraction of the cost of what normally would be charged at most local nurseries.

It is not atypical in my area that the mom and pop nurseries are easily charging $30 for a one gallon plant. In many cases, those one gallon sized pots contain a plant that is nowhere near a one gallon sized plant. Also in my area, the local nurseries do not tend to overwinter most perennial plants like flowers and vines. They sell them at cheaper prices in the middle of the summer so they don't have to deal with them during the heat of the summer. Might be different in those nurseries in your zone 3 area, but summers in the south can be a bear and it is far easier to sell them then deal with them and have them die over the course of the summer. The last couple of weekends I have been visiting nurseries in the area and what they have available are mostly the type II clematis which are not what I prefer growing. I visited Walmart today on errands to purchase other items and saw that they were selling Roseville clematis, luckily for me they only had type II clematis or I would have purchased some. My Polish Spirit came from Walmart several years ago and I snatched it up without a thought since it was a type III clematis that I would have paid $30 at other local nurseries for versus the $4.88 I paid for it. With the high cost of living today, making common sense purchases of good buys is not above anyone's position.

And by the way, you can easily purchase much cheaper plants at mail order nurseries such as Donahues and Koi Gardens who are mom and pop nurseries and have them end up being much cheaper than $20 a plant including shipping. A good purchase for the money is a good purchase regardless of where you get them. I personally take pride when I can purchase a smaller plant and grow it into a one gallon sized plant. That is just how I see it!

I puchased Mrs. Cholmondely three years ago from Green Mountain transplants. Very small tube plants and they are going to bloom this year. If it had been available locally I would have bought it but it isn't. I asked and was told that 2 dozen varieties was enough. Mebbe so, but I wanted Mrs. C. And was willing to be a bit patient.
Most of these clematis varieties are over 100 years old and nbody is getting 'ripped off' by cheap versions. The original breeders are no longer with us.
Incidentally, I see that the flowers on these new plants are deepening in color as they are exposed to the sun.

I agree, Walmart does not rip off the breeder when it comes to PPAF varieties. Why, because it's illegal. For the most part they only sell the run of the mill stuff. They aren't into paying royalties to a breeder. It's not like pirating a pair of designer jeans. Plants have RNA that can definitively identify a plants origin. Hey, I shop at Wally World, just not for my plants. Our local Lowes and Home Depot are advertizing 1 gallon potted clematis for 24 bucks a pop. Not sure what Wally World is asking and I don't care. I support my local nursery. It's ok to shop around but one should have a bit of Social Conscience. Don't ya think?

What one does to have a bit of social conscience will vary from individual to individual. To be quite honest, my local Walmart does not carry one gallon sized plants.

Neither does mine Miguel..The only place I've seen one-gallon clematis here is at Lowe's and they are $26.99...My Local Nurseries DON'T carry Clematis..altho, I don't have to justify to anyone that I order clematis online or love to find a bargain..it's my pocketbook and I'll use it anyway I see fit..I order Online because..#1..They have varities I can't find at Lowe's or Home Depot.. #2. Because my Local Nurseries don't carry clematis..and by the way..those "liner" clematis at Lowe's/Home Depot are bought from Roseville by them ..and I am sure they get a great price on them to sell them so cheaply...Trust me I've spent thousands at my Local Nursery..which by the way...he doesn't propragate them himself..I have been there when those Huge Delivery Trucks arrive filled with tons of flats of plants...Jeanne

I know I should keep out of this because I'm kinda new here. I get in trouble on the Rose Forum when I rip the box stores. I am not wealthy, so it hurts to pay $30 for a plant.

BUT, I love clematis and roses. This is a hobby of passion. If I pay more to buy at Chalk Hill, Silver Star or my local nursery, I consider it an investment in my hobby. Many of the small rose sellers have gone out of business. They can't compete with the Walmart $3 "body bag" roses.

Wouldn't you rather give your money to someone who loves Clematis as much as you do?

OK, you can all yell at me now.

For the most part they only sell the run of the mill stuff. They aren't into paying royalties to a breeder.

Our local Walmart sells Evison's Clematis. Several varieties in 2G pot (Patio series). The price is $19.99. Lowe's also sells them at this price. Guess what? Our local nurseries sell identical Clematis in the same kind of pots with Evison's labels at $39.99. Gianty, if you will tell me that that you will buy the same Clematis for $39.99 instead of $19.99, I won't believe you, sorry.

Harry ..Chime in anytime you wish..LOL...that's the beauty of our Country..Freedom of Speech and Ideas..I've always had a silent giggle to myself when my Girlfriends would talk about this expensive designer purse that they paid 500 dollars for and I got the same one for $39.95 at an outlet..I love it!!..I relish finding bargains and not paying full price...Jeanne

I am with you Jeanne. I don't have unlimited money so any time I can find a bargain I snatch it up and proudly acknowledge it.

I also agree with you Alina. If I found a gas station selling gas for $2 beside one that was selling it for almost $4 a gallon, I know where I would be lined up. Spending more than you have to for anything is just not going to happen in my life. Money is tight and you do what you do to make that money stretch.

Harry, like Jeanne said it's a free country and everyone has the right to express their opinion. I feel I do support those speciality online nurseries for those clematis that I can't find locally (essentially nonexistent in my area) and for those I can't find cheaper other places. But for those bargains that come along where I can save a buck, I do so without hesitation. I would hate to add up all the money I have spent on clematis and the associated paraphenalia over the years and the vast majority has been at online retailers. Any bargains I can find will be summarily snatched up and I will feel good about it. It's called being frugal!

I guess it all depends on where you live. I'm buying a one gallon potted plant at my local nursery for 16 bucks. Lowes and Home Depot are charging around 24 dollars. Our local Walmart sells a small liner in a plastic bag that's barely alive for little to nothing. So I've been told. Alina you said(Our local nurseries sell identical Clematis in the same kind of pots with Evison's labels at $39.99) If that's the case then your local nursery is way out of line with the market price and they won't be around for much longer. You will pay more for a PPAF plant however. Walmart is going through a 3 person to get these plants thats why they cost more. If they could bypass the breeders rights and mass produce them in China they would. Social Conscience. Try it sometime.

Let me rephrase my point.

How would you feel if Silver Star, Chalk Hill and others went out of business? Now you are left with the nursery departments at Walmart and Home Despot.

Do you think clematis growing would be enhanced? Hurt?

This is not just Harry's scenario.

The list of small rose operations that went out of business in the last few years is too long. These are the places that raised specialty roses which are hard to get. They were owned by people who loved growing roses, just like me.

I think it is worth it to pay more to keep these good folks in business.

If that is your choice Harry, go for it. I personally am not a slave to any social position. My bottom line is what matters and how I spend my money is going to affect my ability to purchase any plants from any source. Like I said earlier, I would cringe if I were to add up all the money I have spent on clematis, most of which came from places like Brushwood, Silver Star Vinery, Seneca Hills Perennials, etc. If the small amount of money that I spend elsewhere is enough to put anyone out of business, then sorry but I gotta do what I gotta do to keep my financial house in order. Such is the same for most other people. If you have the where with all to spend more money than you have to get to get a similar product, great for you.

Gianty same for you. If you want to believe what you do, do so. But forget trying to guilt anyone into thinking the way you do by playing the social conscience card.

As far as looking for a "dumpster diver steal" deals.. Yes, I do! And proudly admit to it!! lol =P I mean, why not? I enjoy buying the cheapy clearanced plants, and bringing them back to health - instead of buying something already pretty, and nice. It's a sense of accomplishment, I guess... The pride of knowing that the hard work you put into nursing the plant back to health has paid off. That's how I am, anyway. And, I see nothing wrong with that. =)

It really frosts my hide to see gianty telling someone like nckvilledudes to try getting a social conscience. That's just plain rude. If it weren't for people like nckvilledudes & Jeanne TX, many people reading these boards wouldn't even begin to know how to grow a clematis (I know I didn't!). I'll betcha if they got royalties from local shops for all the clematis they sold by virtue of their volunteering assistance on these boards, they'd be rolling in dough. Just because they're honest about finding a bargain now and then, there's no need to attack anyone's integrity. Harryshoe had a differing opinion, but at least he was a gentleman about it (as always).

I'm not running anybody down on this forum. I'm just saying quit bad mouthing your local nursery. You frugal folks do it all the time. It goes like this, someone writes, hey I just bought Niobe at Walmart for 2.50. Yea my local rip me off nursery wanted 200 bucks. That's my gripe! As far as the people that post on this forum goes. There are lots of folks out there and the resources to lean about the art of growing clematis. What works well in Texas won't necessarily work well in the far north. IMHO

Gianty, point out where on this thread anyone has bad mouthed their local nurseries. You must be on something good to be hallucinating that!

No one has ever said that what works well in any zone will necessarily work in another zone. Once again, you must have missed the boat countless times if you haven't seen that posted here by me and others.

nckvilledudes "Not everyone has tons of money to spend $40 on one gallon sized clematis at the local nurseries".
Not an accurate statement. Foul.

wow. I think that we've forgotten what this thread is REALLY about....why it was even posted in the first place.....someone found some clematis and wanted to share their excitement!

You can bet your sweet bippy if I find a clematis that is something out of the ordinary at Lowe's or Home Depot for WHATEVER price..I'll be as Gladahmae said,"Found a clematis and want to share my excitement"!!..I agree..I thought that was the essence of this posting..and Gianty..I've always stated the difference of growing clematis in Texas than other places...I'm sorry if you thought I've mislead or misdirected people..growing clematis in a warmer zone is much more challenging that my compadres north of me...I remember being a newbie and killing several until people like Miguel sweetly guided me along and in doing so I found things that work for me here in my zone 8B...you just have no idea how fortunate you are to have nurseries locally that you can walk into and find the new varieties and such large specimens..I would gladly pay big bucks to have one I really wanted from a local person...The ONE person that had some at his nursery..which is called "Growers Outlet"..he is a neighbor down the road from me as well...Had some clematis when I first started frequenting his nursery and I HAD to tell him to add soil to the top and water them more...I bought about 5 from him and asked when he would get more in..he said he wouldn't be carrying them anymore because no one here knew what they were and wouldn't buy them...I was the ONLY one that bought any...very discouraging for me...so online is my only way of adding new varieties to my growing collection...Jeanne

Gianty, if you think that my stating that not everyone can afford to spend $40 at a local nursery is bad mouthing a nursery, then you have a lot to learn. That is simply a statement of fact that was made by Alina stating what nurseries in her area were charging for some of the Evison clematis compared to what the same clematis cost at a big box store. If you interpreted it as bad mouthing, then you need to get a life. In addition, the first time that you mentioned anyone badmouthing a nursery was the fourth posting in this thread. Again, go back and show where anyone bad mouthed local nurseries before you chimed in here.

If you want to cry foul, perhaps you should refrain from making outrageous and untrue statements like this:

"You frugal folks do it all the time. It goes like this, someone writes, hey I just bought Niobe at Walmart for 2.50. Yea my local rip me off nursery wanted 200 bucks. That's my gripe".

If that is not a fabrication and exaggeration of what anyone said, then again you are in denial.

I am like Jeanne and Gladahmae. This thread was originally posted to comment on finding bargains at local places whether they be big box stores or local nurseries. Another thing that I have stated countless times is that the local nurseries in my area offer only the common type IIs which are not ones that I have any interest in so if I do find something available elsewhere, whether it be a local nursery or a big box store, then I will jump on it faster than greased lightning. I am more than willing to spend as much or as little on any clematis depending on how much I want it and who has it available. This is coming from someone who spent over $36 including shipping for a mailorder quart sized pink pitcherii clematis this spring.

End of my comments on this thread regardless of what you post next. For that matter, I have you on ignore and hope others will do so similarly. You aren't worth the time IMHO!

Miguel, you stole my idea! I was going to offer ignoring that poster.
Oldroser, with some TLC your new Walmart babies will be as beautiful as their expensive relatives from fancy nurseries. Congatulation on your purchase!
I just bought 'Negritjanka' for $1.69 + shipping on Ebay. You guys enabled me to try Viticellas finally!

Hi Gianty, I don't know of any local grower here. Our over-priced garden stores all buy from places down in SC and the like. They also have the same plants. I'm sorry but I just don't like Nelly Moser. I looked all over for a Claire De Lune and found ONE for $49.00! I had to buy bare root from someone I didn't know on EBay to get the varieties I want. I'm also broke and can't afford big plants. sigh

I would buy from a local grower if I could find one and I would spend $20 a plant to get nice ones I could put right in the garden. If you are a grower I don't blame you for cringing when people buy from Wal-Mart. Everyone has to make a living and I understand that. It's just that some of us can't buy from a local grower.

Peace,
Jane

Thanks Jane, at least 2 posters get it. I think ordering online from a clematis grower/propagater is a great way to get the vines you won't find at your local nursery. Those folks are very sensative to a growers/breeders rights. Jeanne you said that your local nursery down the road just couldn't sell or there just wasn't any demand for clematis in your area? Because there is to little known about them? When a clematis is well grown, well displayed and in bloom, they sell themselves. With your collection Jeanne I'm surprised the locals weren't scarffing up everything Growers Outlet had to sell. There has to be more to the story?
It's a free market system and if a nursery is way out of line with it's prices then they won't be around for long. That's just how it works and I wouldn't buy from them either. IMHO

Gianty it's not that the rest of the people don't get it, they just don't think your personal perspective matches theirs! People in the world can have differing opinions without being looked down upon.

BTW I don't appreciate your assumption that people who aren't agreeing with you are all bagain hunters out to stiff local shops. I don't buy my plants at Walmart, but I certainly don't begrudge those who do.

I generally don't shop at Wal*Mart. I prefer Target. Fred Meyer used to be locally owned but now is owned by Kroger.

I don't care for Lowes either but do shop at Home Depot. DH and I both preferred Home Base and Builder's Supply but they both went out of business here. The local hardware store did too. Home Depot is now pretty much it for hardware without going a long distance to an independent.

I did visit both Lowes and Wal*Mart several times last year when it was reported that they had the Evison patio clems but did not find a single one. The only place I found them was at several local garden centers in two gallon pots for $40.

I do not mind spending $12-$18 for a gallon Clematis which are our local prices but I'm not spending $40 for a two gallon.

I have found many, many Clems here and have never mail ordered them but I live in an area surrounded by wholesale growers and nowhere but California has more than Oregon.

It is a nationally known mail order source that charges the most here for them and whose employee gave me bad advice about a specific variety recently and I received rude treatment there twice last year. I had to force myself to go back this year....

IF Wal*Mart was the only place for me to find Clematis locally then I'd buy them at Wal*Mart!

I did mail order Cassis from Park's and it arrived almost dead and I'm sure it is now fully dead.

Hey Bors. I ordered both Vienetta and Cassis from Van Bourgondien. Vienetta arrived alive with a small green sprout and supple pliable roots but Cassis was DOA, with roots that were as brittle as dried out twigs. I wrote and complained to them and they offered to replace them both. The replacements arrived and both of them were DOA--roots that were so dried out it was pathetic. I took pictures and sent them back to the customer service person. She showed the pictures to her boss who said they were dormant. Yeah, they were dormant alright because they were dead! So I potted the three dead ones (two Cassis and one Vienetta) up and nothing has sprouted. In fact, the other day I dumped the contents out of the pots and the dead roots had rotted completely away. The one earlier arriving Vienetta is just fine and growing away. Needless to say, this was all documented on Garden Watchdog. Have purchased from Van Bourgondien before (the Royal Horticultural Society ones) with no real issues but never again.

I thought Gianty sounded as if she or he was getting louder because people weren't getting the message. I'm guilty of that myself, but usually on dog rescue forums. I thought the point was valid and well stated and not at all harsh. You should read some of the stuff in the rescue forums. :)

I stopped down by Wal-Mart just to see and they had some red ones I didn't recognize and forgot the name of and quite a few Gillian Blades that are in quart pots and look good. They were $7 so I bought one. CT is over-run with expensive garden centers that all seem to stock the same thing. This is a pretty little thing and none of the big boys have her. Their loss -- my gain.

They also have a new shipment in of roses that look pretty healthy for only $9. Because I want a climbing version of The Fairy rose I will have to pay $27. Ouch! I could have ordered her bare root -- again. The first time she showed up she was mislabled and now its too late to order. So off to the over-priced center I go, or I have to wait another year. I know the grower only got a tiny bit of that $27. I do go to local folks who grow tons of annual flats but not the bigger perennials.

Miguel, I am very sorry about your VB order. I told you about a similar experience with them when you just placed you order. I hoped it'll work better for you... I keep posting a negative feedback on them every time someone asks about this company. The worst experience in my history of mail ordering. Their customer service representatives lie all the time. Every time I called them, I heard a different version of their policy.

I did complain to Park's and they were supposed to have a credit for me on file for my next order but they refused to honor it.

I ordered twice and had 30% dead plants both times and I'll never order again. The plants that lived were so stunted and/or tiny that they still haven't done anything and it has been a year since the second shipment.

Today I went over and bought $25. worth of tomato plants at my local, small nursery. He grows them himself and has 28 varieties the last time I counted. I'll be back for perennials and annuals when the weather clears. He just gave a heads-up to a friend that he'll have agastache rupestris for sale in a couple of weeks. That's the kind of thing which gets people coming back. (he was the one who said 18 varieties of clematis was enough) The big local nursery gets its plants in by the truckload but does grow out some things. Not clematis which they get from the same sources as Lowe's and Home Depot, with whom, incidentally, they compete very successfully even though they are practically next door.
Like a lot of people, I buy staples from Walmart - I have no sentimental feelings for supermarkets and the local grocery departed before Walmart came along. I stopped doing business with a local pharmacy when he refused to special order something. That kind of attitude I expect from CVS.
Local businesses which will cater to their customers will survive - the ones that think they can best compete with Walmart by having the same attitude are going bye-bye.

Alina, I remember your post about VB. I had great luck with the RHS collection I got from them including Harlow Carr, Wisely, and Rosemoor--they were the only people offering them at the time and I just had to have them. I guess Cassis' purple blooms just enticed me in and my second experience with VB was just bad. Vienetta is doing fine but Cassis is a goner.

Don't think I have ever ordered any plants from Parks BorS. I have ordered outdoor marking pens from them and they work great and don't fade.

Oldroser, I love agastache rupestris and so do the hummingbirds. It just needs good drainage or it tends to die over the winter here in NC.

My local garden center still hasn't gotten their clems in yet, so today I decided I was going elsewhere. After driving around to several stores and not finding what I wanted, I decided to swing by Walmart. I just cracked up when I realized what the big controversy was about. Local stores could sell those tiny little cuttings for $5, too. Gianty before you started bad mouthing decent people, you should have had a look for yourself at the $5 clems you think are going to put local garden centers out of business. lol

Junk aren't they. So why do people buy them? Walmarts whole business model is based on quanity of sales not quality of product. Flowers are optional you can either afford to buy a nice quality plant to begin with or you might have to start out with something that's sick and abused. What I'd like to know is how many of those deals because we always hear about the ones that make it. Just how many of those bargain basement plants die?

They are not junk. They are essentially liner type plants that need to be grown out before planting in the ground. I have at least four that were purchased from Walmart that have flourished including Blue Light, HF Young, Polish Spirit, and Proteus. Bill Bird who raises clematis from seed and had many postings in this forum for several years and is an active member of the International Clematis Society used to tell everyone that they are good buys if grown out before planting in the garden. None of my bargain basement Walmart plants, some of which were purchased for $2.88, died. Patience and care is all that is required and for those willing to give it, they are rewarded with nice clematis at low prices. My Polish Spirit outgrew its one gallon sized pot it was planted in in less than two months after planting.

Ditto. All of my Walmart Clematis are thriving except for one bareroot 'Marmori' that I bought for $1.50. It was hopeless when I bought it, but I wanted 'Marmori' badly, so I decided to take a risk.

Thanks for the headsup oldroser. Deb is getting a HF Young today at work. She asked about it yesterday and mentioned they looked so healthy she was tempted to get at least one without checking on it. Several of our clematis are from Walmart. Sometimes Deb can't resist bringing them home. Yeah, she works at Walmart :) Can't repeat what she said when she read they were junk, LMAO....

Consider the source of the comment diggerdave. I find the plants quite nice and the person making the disparging remarks about them say that several of mine that I posted were nice looking. This was of course before I posted on this thread that they were ones originally purchased from Walmart. LOL

Boy oh boy! nckvilledudes you can't even take a compliment without being negative!

And you can't accept the fact that you categorically slammed all clematis that you can purchase for a lower price, regardless of the source, and then complimented several in a post I had that came from Walmart. Once again, you are on ignore!

Thanks nckvilledudes :) I showed Deb the start of this thread after she read the junk comment. She had wondered what my laughter was about and read the junk reply first. Her reaction was rather colorful and I enjoyed it. Your comments about Polish Spirit got a smile from her. She picked up 3 of them 2 years ago and they have become monsters. Glad we gave them a lot of room on the fence.

When I began growing clematis many years ago I bought a dozen plants at WalMart. They all died.

I work full-time and really don't have time or the patience to replant, or dink around with small or half-sick plants. I buy from Chalk Hill, Brushwood, Joy Creek and Silver Star. I have never lost a clematis from those nurseries and now have close to 50 plants.

You are welcome Diggerdave. Glad to see others here have had great success with the smaller clematis from Walmart like I have.

Mary, did you pot yours up and grow them out prior to planting them in the garden. This greatly enhances your success with them. One other thing to consider is that you say that "when you began growing clematis many years ago, I bought a dozen plants at Walmart and they died". Since then I am sure you have learned a whole lot more about growing clematis so that probably had a lot to do with your lack of success with those plants. I have purchased plants from several of the sources you have mentioned and lost some so it isn't just the size that determines success or failure with any clematis.

My first was off a half dead rack at Lowes and I kept it in a pot and it bloomed and bloomed. In the garage very early this spring and is growing very well. I haven't lost any of the half dead ones since and the ones I got at koi gardens are going like gangbusters. They might need an even bigger pot already, lol. Those were some massive roots on those tiny plants. More than well worth it.

I miss Miguel.....

See! I'm new, but this situation is common on any internet site. Gianty, if you don't have something nice to say, you shouldn't have said anything at all in the first place. What happened to the idea of keeping your haughty opinions to yourself?!

This post is three years old. A spammer brought it to the top......Their post has been removed.