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melissa_thefarm

Request Clematis primer

melissa_thefarm
12 years ago

Okay. This is a big question, so I may divide it into parts: this is the first part. First, I've had clematis in my gardens for twenty years, so I'm not totally ignorant about them, but neither am I well informed either from reading or from experience. I'm thinking of making a large order (perhaps twenty plants) from a specialist nursery this fall, and getting varieties selected or hybridized from several different species, many of which I've never seen or grown. I would like to get an idea of what kind of conditions different kinds of clematis like, and will describe the different parts of my garden, and how the clematis I have grown have behaved. By the way, I normally frequent the antique rose forum, but occasionally wander into other forums when I have a big question.

I live in the northern foothills of the Apennines of Italy. Our property faces south; most of it is sunny and exposed to wind. We're in zone 7-8, with mild, chilly, wet winters and dry summers, hot during the day, fresher at night. We don't water during dry periods once plants have been in the ground for a year. The soil in the big/sunny part of the garden is deep, very heavy clay, poor in organic matter and apparently of roughly neutral ph. I don't fertilize, but keep a permanent mulch of hay on the beds, plus whatever other organic matter I can get hold of. All the garden is steeply sloping, and I rarely have problems with drainage in spite of the heavy soil. Plants that do well there include once-blooming and mild climate old roses, tall bearded irises, lilacs, spring-flowering bulbs, aromatic plants like lavender and rosemary, peonies in the moister and shadier areas, privets, honeysuckles, mock orange.

The shade garden is cooler, moister, and in part to full shade. We had extensive flooding down the drainage in the middle of it a few years ago that brought down great quantities of organic matter from a fenced area for cattle above; and this drainage turns into a swamp during wet weather in fall through early spring. In this garden Gallicas and Hybrid Musk roses do particularly well, as do peonies, yew, box, mahonia, spring bulbs. The roses tolerate a lot of wet when they're dormant, but mostly we plant the other plants in those parts of the garden that aren't a seasonal swamp.

So, the clematis. I planted 'Lord Nevill' in the large sunny garden and it has done quite well, developing slowly as isn't surprising with no summer water. It's about four years old now and had an excellent flowering this year in spite of a dry spring. Other clematis planted in this garden in the last two or three years have included C. viticella rubra, 'Mrs. Chomondeley', 'Star of India', 'Jackmanii', 'Gillian Blades' and 'Pink Fantasy', plus a couple I lost from planting them in spring shortly before the summer drought. Two plants of C. alpina has gone into some cooler and shadier areas and seem to be happy with their situation. My current idea is that if the clematis can get through the first year they seem to take kindly to the big garden, heavy soil, summer drought and all.

The shade garden seems to be more problematic. 'The President' and 'Marie Boisselot' never grew much in the several years they were there; 'Mme. Julia Correvon' is tolerably happy; and 'Jackmanii' and two other clematis opposite it on a trellis, another 'The President' and a lavender kind with early double flowers, are still struggling after several years in place. There's a C. integrifolia in a sunny place with good soil that's happy. I've planted several Clematis montana varieties, always in spring (this isn't my preference but it's when local nurseries carry clematis) in the woods, and have lost them all. There's one survivor in a semi-sunny area.

In another garden area in part shade, 'Etoile Violette' does reasonably well in a rather dry and shady position; in heavier soil 'Polish Spirit' grows but doesn't bloom much; and the C. texensis hybrid 'Duchess of Albany', in place for several years, grows and flowers poorly. 'Polish Spirit' may be suffering root competition.

So I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from all this, and would like your ideas on what clematis like. Viticella and Texensis hybrids and cultivars; pruning class II hybrids; C. alpina and C. macropetala, and do they have similar requirements?; C. heracleifolia forms and hybrids; C. integrifolia forms and hybrids; C. tangutica; and others. As you can see I'm ready to wallow in clematis starting this fall, but it would be helpful to know of any things absolutely not to do. About our temperatures, we have enough winter chill for lilacs and tulips and apples, but can also grow olives in warmer spots in the garden. So we have winter chill but the temperatures don't fall all that low.

To anyone who has made it this far, thanks for your patience! I look forward to your insights and counsel.

Melissa

Comments (4)

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Melissa, sounds like you have a typical Mediterranean climate, which is what most of the west coast of the US enjoys, particularly California (more northern parts, like the PNW, are considered a modified Med climate). Soils vary widely over this area but clematis seem to do equally well throughout, provided good drainage is available. They dislike being dry in summer and would appreciate regular deep waterings and will perform and thrive much better if they receive them at least occasionally.

    I have yet to find any variety of clematis that will not thrive here except for the few not fully hardy and C. florida 'Sieboldii', which for me has been extraordinarily fussy. Certainly all the species you list and the closely related hybrids have done well for me. I tend to grow less type twos than others but only because those included in pruning groups 1 and 3 interest and appeal to me more.

    The only changes I would suggest you make is to make sure your planting sites are well-amended with organic matter, both to loosen the heavy soil, improve drainage and assist with moisture retention. And mulch well during the summer months to conserve whatever soil moisture exists. And if you can, give 'em a good long drink every so often. Otherwise, I don't think you need to limit your choices -- try whatever you fancy :-)

  • buyorsell888
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would suggest that the texensis and viticellas would be the ones to avoid shade. Many of the large flowering hybrids will tolerate some shade though. Root competition has proven a problem for me as well.

  • michael_in_chicago
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you're in Northern Italy near I Monti Appennini (Le Marche or further west?), then you live in an area where C. viticella is indigenous. The viticellas and viorna group (including texensis and its hybrids) grow naturally on the edges of sunny forests or brushy areas. So keep these in as much sun as possible - they tolerate extreme heat (viticellas are found as far south as northern Africa, texensis from Texas, USA) and, once established, can tolerate some dryness.

    Integrifolias and its hybrids are from similar regions in the Mediterranean, and will be just as bullet proof if given adequate sunlight. These 3 groups do not perform as well in shady areas, though you will still get some blooms.

    Tangutica and its ilk can tolerate extreme heat and full, hot sun, but will rot and die during wet winters. If you're in Le Marche or Piemonte, these may not be the best choice unless you cover them with plastic/glass in the winter.

    Alpinas and macropetalas do not like extreme heat too much, and most importantly can die off if not kept well watered during hot summers. The tubulosa group, however (C. heracleifolia, et al.) are perfect for hot, dry, sunny sites once established.

    The patens group (The President + other early types with large blooms) can tolerate some shade quite well, but prefer even moisture during hot summers. As has been stated, root competition can kill a clematis, especially without additional water during the summer.

    Also indigenous to the Mediterranean would be C. flammula and its hybrids, which love hot, dry weather and C. recta in its various forms.

    Viticella and Texensis hybrids and cultivars; pruning class II hybrids; C. alpina and C. macropetala, and do they have similar requirements?; C. heracleifolia forms and hybrids; C. integrifolia forms and hybrids; C. tangutica; and others. As you can see I'm ready to wallow in clematis starting this fall, but it would be helpful to know of any things absolutely

  • melissa_thefarm
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gardengal, Buyorsell, Michael,
    Thank you all for your comments! You're all giving me the impression that I can grow a lot of kinds of clematis, and that's what I love to hear. Buyorsell, "shade" here is in the context of a hot sunny climate. I follow your argument, but actually my best performer in the (so-called) shade garden has been 'Mme. Julia Correvon', a Viticella cultivar. I'm always suspicious about vining plants that are supposed to require full sun. The shade garden is actually half sun, and as I said many roses that like a cooler atmosphere do better here than out in the more exposed sunny garden. I do have one Texensis cultivar that looks perpetually starved and put-upon, and I would like to try it in a sunnier position, because those Texensis hybrids are just too pretty. Michael, thanks for your comments. I live in the hills in the province of Piacenza. I didn't recall seeing Clematis viticella around here (as opposed to C. vitalba which is everywhere and horribly invasive), so I checked my 'Flora Piacentina' and in fact C. viticella isn't found wild in the province; the only native Clematis species here is C. vitalba. I don't know what C. viticella's native range in Italy is. I have C. integrifolia down in one of the sunnier spots in the shade garden, with old roses and herbaceous peonies, and like them it's doing fine. The environment is the edge of a woodland, which I find a lot of garden plants like. I rarely have problems with drainage, because of our steep slope. Let's hope that C. tangutica will be happy under these conditions. I believe my sister told me she grew it in western Washington, which is certainly wet enough in the wintertime. It sounds like C. tangutica would do best at the edge of a drop, though. I've had C. alpina in my garden, in some of the shadier spots, for a couple of years, and it does pretty well. Even though we have hot summers, the air is dry and temperatures drop at night. I have an idea that plants that suffer from summer heat do so in humid summer climates where the air stays warm twenty-four hours a day. I'm happy to hear what you have to say about C. heracleifolia, and am already thinking about hot sunny banks in the garden, of which I have many! About clematis and watering, I'm sure that the large-flowered patens hybrids appreciate summer water where they get it, but they can manage without once they're established: mine do at any rate. This may owe much to the considerable depth of clay in our garden, to our abundant spring rains, and to the permanent hay mulch. After the first year I lose few plants to drought, even though we don't water. I know I sound like I'm contradicting much of what you've said. It's not out of perversity, but I've gardened for years in both the U.S. and in Italy, and have been able to see how the climate differs here from that of the eastern U.S. and the Midwest in particular.
    Again, thank you all for your comments; I appreciate your taking the trouble to respond.
    Melissa