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fall grafting

Posted by sluice z6a CO (My Page) on
Fri, Sep 6, 13 at 11:36

Here's an update on my fall grafting trial. Enjoy!

August 9, 2009: Picea engelmannii, near Flat Tops plateau
A few scions were collected and grafted, but no takes.
engelmannii photo P8091738.jpg

August 17, 2013: Scion collected again
sweetwater photo P8170334.jpg


August 22, 2013: Picea pungens understock, from Brooks Tree Farm
understock pungens photo P8220124.jpg


August 24, 2013: Grafts in basement, under poly and artificial light
under poly and lights photo P8240004.jpg

August 30, 2013: Left town for a few days. Took the poly off, and left the light on.
 photo P8300575.jpg

September 2, 2013: Began planting out
fall grafting, planted out sep 2 photo P9050054.jpg


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: fall grafting

I asked once Malik about the success of Fall graftings.
He answered 0 to 100. Good luck, Nate!
He knows, all Pinus cembra brooms were grafted first in Fall time.

Zsolt


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RE: fall grafting

Thanks Zsolt! If one scion takes, I'll consider it a success.

I used pungens understock from two sources. You can see the differences.

Brooks Tree Farm
pungens understock brooks photo P8260573.jpg

University of Idaho superplug, less mature growth
pungens understock, u idaho photo P8260557.jpg

Also grafted scions of different sizes.

Large scion (year old wood)
large scion photo P8300580.jpg

Small scion (this year's wood)
small scion photo P8300588.jpg

Here are the cones, pic taken right after they were harvested.
engelmannii cones photo P8180499.jpg

I put the cones in a paper bag to dry out. Here they are today.
 photo 0a092e71-60cf-4c90-9c57-e7f689941e5e.jpg

Seeds on the scale
 photo ad80bfd2-eeaa-4769-881f-1ea76a8ed8be.jpg

Picea engelmannii seeds
engelmannii seeds photo P9070610.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

Some scions still looking ok
 photo P9080824.jpg


Other scions now losing needles
picea engelmannii photo P9080822.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

We've had some extraordinarily humid weather here lately.
sept 15 2013 photo P9150070.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

Kudos Sluice, That is really cool!


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RE: fall grafting

Thanks Al.

So far it looks like between 80-85% of the grafts did not take. It will be interesting to see if any make it through the winter!


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RE: fall grafting

  • Posted by Jarpe z4-z5 Finland (My Page) on
    Sun, Oct 13, 13 at 14:45

Thank you for wery interesting photos, Sluice, but why do you keep the grafted plants indoors. My experience is that grafting should be made in time when newest growth is not completely hardened (in finland about 25.-30.7.)Fall grafted plants should be kept outside throw winter just like ones that have been grafted in springtime. Key is to keep them in shade all the time and block the wind. This is to avoid drying out when roots are frozen, It might allso be good idea to use plastic bag till first snow and to put it back on late february.(i wouldn´t keep it on throw all winter becauce there is strong possibility of fungus and mold atleast if snow covers bagged plants.)
This way i have reached the success of about 40% and with plastic bags i think percentage will be higher still.
I thind the dry basement air and intensive lights are key factors in your problem( connected scion drying).


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RE: fall grafting

"August 17, 2013: Scion collected again"

"August 22, 2013: Picea pungens understock, from Brooks Tree Farm"

"August 24, 2013: Grafts in basement"

"So far it looks like between 80-85% of the grafts did not take"

I wonder if that 6 day delay between collecting scions and grafting could be the reason for the low take? Next time, have the understock ready beforehand and graft within at most a few hours of collecting? Maybe even take the stock with you, and graft on-site next to the scion tree within minutes of harvest? Dehydration and cavitation in those all-important surface cells at the graft join can be very rapid, particularly if the tree is already under any dry weather stress.

Resin


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RE: fall grafting

Thanks Jarpe and Resin for the good information - this will help me improve for the next trials!

Here's a remaining scion, today Oct. 19
 photo 40444053-222c-4b83-8360-c4cc811d6a6b.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

Very, very, very, beautiful. It would be nice to have many takes, but even a few or one means a lot. I think Resin has a really good idea to graft right there. Have those stocks warmed up for 2-3 weeks on a heat mat, prior...

Dax


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RE: fall grafting

Good work Nate, your learning curve is a valuable resource.


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RE: fall grafting

Parafilm tape can be used instead of plastic bags. I grafted this summer using parafilm . Viewed this method from bonsai blog.
Here is a link that might be useful:Grafting in fall
Here is a link that might be useful:Grafting using parafilm


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RE: fall grafting

  • Posted by Jarpe z4-z5 Finland (My Page) on
    Wed, Oct 30, 13 at 16:48

Longaeva54, thank you for the links, bud inside the parafilm is totally new info to me, might be succesfull method, great! :) And sluice, if you sometime in future happen to have any extra scions of that wonderful picea engelmannii specimen...


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RE: fall grafting

Thanks Dax, Severnside, Longaeva54, and Jarpe for the advice and comments.

Here is a pic from today of another one of the surviving grafts.

Picea engelmannii
 photo 7f6d3e00-b30a-4223-85fd-fe0d9ac7250b.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

Hi Nate,

It already looks very promising

L+M S


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RE: fall grafting

Thanks L+M!

We had a cold snap earlier this month. I wonder how it will affect the graft unions.
december 2013 cold snap photo december2013.jpg

Picea engelmannii, fall grafted (doesn't look viable)
engelmannii fall graft, 12-12-13 photo 20994f89-6adc-42ec-8f1d-6295cd4da771.jpg

Picea engelmannii, fall grafted (still looks OK)
engelmannii fall graft, 12-12-13 photo d6207662-fc3a-4a98-802d-5bd240332984.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

Monthly update!
Picea engelmannii scion, on Picea pungens understock
 photo 6313c582-99e0-42e9-8a78-7588e75e99cd.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

Looking good! I shine a torch from behind the needles and buds to see if there's a good glow when they're lit up like looking at the vessels in your fingers. The needles on yours look absolutely alive and well. August is a long long time back. To be alive and needle good after 5 months - though I know it's academic in the final spring test - is one massive hump crossed.

This post was edited by severnside on Tue, Jan 14, 14 at 16:03


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RE: fall grafting

Thanks for the update, Nate. How many scions still look viable?

tj


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RE: fall grafting

Thanks Severnside and TJ!
TJ, I'm postponing the accounting until spring (following the old adage - don't count your buds until they develop into shoots!)


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RE: fall grafting

At 10 weeks. Still healthy colour in the buds and cone showing no signs of desiccation. But yes Nate, that adage is the one to obey. I calculate it will be around week #22 that I'll know.

 photo P1100765.jpg

This post was edited by severnside on Tue, Jan 28, 14 at 10:19


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RE: fall grafting

Looks good Severnside!

Still in hibernation here, on Groundhog Day.
 photo P2020052.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

Certainly blanketed. No snow here Nate, just high winds and heavy rain.

I'm going to graft 5 more scions of a second good mugo find tonight. 4 onto P.sylvestris and 1 onto P.nigra.

Mugo rootstock isnt easy to find and I like the vigour of full sized species trees, it can't hurt.


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RE: fall grafting

Nate, thats a great looking tree. I wish you all the success! I just keep learing here and thanks for that.

Rob


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RE: fall grafting

Severnside, good luck with the new mugo find!

Rob, thanks for your interest!

Here's another monthly update, Picea engelmannii scion
 photo c654c892-510a-4d2c-b381-6d7fcc49c048.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

I'd be very happy with that Nate, the way the sun shines through the needles and the bud looks chubby. I certainly hope your narrow engelmannii is soon to be realised.

Being the pre push-time now, I'm looking for the slightest extension or anything daily now.

Here's a side by side of week 7 (top) vs week 13 as I'm at exactly the three month mark today.

Graft bud at week 7 (top) vs week 13 (bottom) photo Sidebyside7v13.jpg

The six grafts of the other mugo will have a shorter time to unionise so I'll simply wait on any pushes rather than get too fussed like with the longer term one.

This post was edited by severnside on Tue, Feb 18, 14 at 11:14


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RE: fall grafting

G-luck Nate!

Dax


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RE: fall grafting

Looks good Severnside, and thanks Dax!

Here's another monthly update.

Picea engelmannii
 photo 57bccf93-a008-4820-86a4-24a756cd3b7d.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

April update

Many of the other spruce buds in the garden are starting to show signs of waking up, these grafts seem to be lagging.

Picea engelmannii
 photo 1bbd1383-1fe3-4b63-b5a6-8557e18a0693.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

This bud is starting to show signs of life.
April 6 -> April 19
 photo 90ba9101-a2f5-4bf7-a97c-1d266922bc8c.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

  • Posted by Jarpe z4-z5 Finland (My Page) on
    Sat, Apr 19, 14 at 17:14

This is absolutely thrilling! Here, at the other corner of world i (along with others) keep my fingers crossed for that little graft of wonderful engelmannii form! It seems to have strong will to survive and gain eternal life through your hands, maby someday (i hope) as a global cultivar.


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RE: fall grafting

Bud extension! So good for you Sluice!

My fall graft died, it never took at all.

I have four spring grafted ones that are still 'alive' but haven't pushed. The only reason I haven't given up is that they still run sap when I pluck a needle and the weather has been hot for a ten day run - should be stone dried out.

Allow me my pathetic hope just yet.


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RE: fall grafting

Jarpe, yes I hope to get a stock plant established within a few years.

Severnside, sorry to hear about the fall grafts - hopefully the spring grafts will be coming along soon.

Here is another Engelmann scion, the bud appears to be waking up after a long winter dormancy. How sweet it is!
April 6 -> April 20
 photo 1b892b6c-fc9f-482f-8f1d-efdc2b855e67.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

Fantastic Nate!


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RE: fall grafting

Thanks Severnside!

I'm starting to pencil in some numbers on the ledger.

Of 100 scions grafted last fall, 13 still retain live needles.
Of those 13 scions, I'm seeing early signs of shoot development on 3.
 photo b06f08df-b4cd-45cd-9edc-9e3ea16584e2.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

If only the three that are pushing make it then you'll have all you need.

Fingers still crossed for their success.

Mine are still in the game though no discernable push still. No decline though at week 11.


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RE: fall grafting

If they're still viable after 11 weeks, that seems like a good sign.

The bud cap on this one is starting to break loose.
 photo 3d83d1a1-998d-4b6e-955d-71c802b4f5a0.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

You're there! Congrats. Time to name them? Not sure if you have yet.


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RE: fall grafting

Thanks Severnside!

Provisionally, Picea engelmannii 'Sweetwater'
 photo ceb23839-8fa0-4373-825f-25c5ecdc3590.jpg

Named after the Sweetwater area, located near Dotsero CO (see link)

Here is a link that might be useful: Sweetwater


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RE: fall grafting

Now four scions with shoots developing.
Two on Brooks Tree Farm understock.
Two on University of Idaho Seedling Nursery understock.
 photo f5e76208-9de2-4b88-a875-052bca12711f.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

Awesome, hope the other nine develop for you.

Frank


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RE: fall grafting

Thanks Frank!

From my first visit to the Flat Tops plateau.
flat tops photo flattops003.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

Wow, are all those conifers in the foreground? You could search for brooms almost indefinitely.

Congrats on the pushing buds!

Tentatively - very - I may have my own first show of new growth on one of my four grafts. White proto needles emerging from the sap-weeping partition in the side? Not a full candle push but maybe a beginning?

 photo P1140330-002.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

The new graft looks very good!

Yep, along that slope in the foreground there are P. edulis, J. monosperma, and a few P. menziesii.

Here is our camping spot at higher elevation, amongst the P. engelmannii and A. lasiocarpa.
flat tops photo flattops005.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

Well done! It's will grow! It will be interesting plant!

L+M S


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RE: fall grafting

Thanks L+M S !

I cut away some of the foliage on the understock to give the scion some room.
Picea engelmannii
 photo 092583c6-c3d0-4478-988f-b7d73ef3d629.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

Brilliant Nate. Picea engelmannii 'Sweetwater' is now part of the conifer cannon. Congrats, looking forward to seeing a specimen a couple of seasons down the line here in the galleries.

My own success story, all four grafts are very much alive, two are concentrating on putting out pollen balls and this one is just now showing the needle array. Just visible in the best shot I can shake out the camera are next year's budlets - amazing to go from will-it-won't-it to seeing two years worth of growth being layed down.

 photo P1140993.jpg

This is the same candle as I showed a couple of posts above. Back then it was horizontal, now it's become upright in obeyance of negative geotropism/gravitropism.

This post was edited by severnside on Fri, May 9, 14 at 19:07


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RE: fall grafting

Sweet, Nate.

Good, severn.

Dax


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RE: fall grafting

I had 20 of my Freshman college students graft last fall. For anybody who didn't want their final product, I took their tree home with me and immediately planted. Two of the four I brought home have taken successfully and are pushing new growth, including a 'Pusch'! Not too shabby for first time grafters.


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RE: fall grafting

Severnside, it's fantastic to see that scion waking up!

Thanks Dax.

Unprofessional, that's a great result.

Here another update from today. Picea engelmannii 'Sweetwater'
 photo 24dd8d0e-907a-4db9-a540-2c48383b33a8.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

I guess Nate, many of your understocks are survived. This year it would be interesting to graft any other engelmann scions a bit later, late September or October. It would be interesting to know, how it goes?
Zsolt


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Any new pics Nate?

My #2 graft showing the pollen flowers.
Graft #2 showing pollen flowers May 2014 photo P1150483.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

Severnside, the #2 graft looks great!

No new pics to report. Of 12 surviving scions of about 100 grafted, 4 showed new growth this spring. Will see what happens next year!

Jeeping at the Flat Top plateau, amongst the Artemisia tridentata.
flat tops photo flattops001.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

What is your experience of non-pushers waiting a year? Didn't you have an Abies procera 'Bizarro' that did that?

Jeep & Colorado Wilderness = bliss. Know your luck.


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RE: fall grafting

Severnside, I did have a P. pungens like that, and am planning to put together a time lapse post.

Riding along in the jeep.
 photo 72261f0e-515f-498b-8ccb-83c13ff9e562.jpg


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RE: fall grafting

Great foreground juxtaposition against the (very) background rain virga and overarching clouds. Brilliant pic.


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