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Question about Abies pinsapo 'Horstmann'/'Horstmann Nana'

maple_grove_gw
11 years ago

Are Abies pinsapo 'Horstmann' and 'Horstmann Nana' the same plant, or are these two different cultivars? When trying to sort this out, I did not find a nursery that carries them both, and I'm starting to think they're two different names for the same plant. But the descriptions are fairly different. The nana selection is described as 'prostrate and flat to the ground', whereas 'Horstmann' is described as upright and while starting slow, eventually growing into a large tree.

Can someone shed some light on the situation?

Thanks,

Alex

Comments (27)

  • maple_grove_gw
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Intended to post this to the discussion side.

  • clement_2006
    11 years ago

    It's the same plant.
    Clement

  • maple_grove_gw
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Thanks, Clement. I thought that was the case.

    I think that 'Horstmann' would have to be the correct name, is that correct?

  • severnside
    11 years ago

    It has a variable growth rate/form which is hard to predict. It can be a slow mounding shape to start but then may throw up a vigourous leader or multiple leaders and become a very large plant.

    Here's Bluespruce's specimen which shows the size it can become in all directions.

    Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:614389}}

  • maple_grove_gw
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Wow, that's an impressive specimen. I see what you mean by "multiple leaders" - if you hadn't said that, I'd have thought that was four plants instead of one.

    If anyone else has a picture of another 'Horstmann' that they'd like to share, please feel free to post it here. We might as well take advantage of the fact we're in "Galleries".

  • midnightsummerdream
    8 years ago

    Maple_grove_gw (Alex); did you ever find and planted an abies pinsapo "horstmann" aka "horstmann nana", because after nine years I have finally located one to purchase in a #1. I went thru the same confusion regarding this CV in comparison to each other offering from different growers regarding it (i.e.: Iseli, Kigi, Busholtz, Dragonfly Farm Nursery, etc.) and I know that abies pinsapo "glauca" and "aurea" is not the same to "horstmann and horstmann nana" as Clement clarified for us.

    Severnside; the pic of bluespruce's specimen is a great pic that you posted, how old is this specimen to get to this size? I just want to understand it's growth rate; because different growers as listed to Alex (half says 1-3 inches per years and the other half states 3-5 inches per year), but all states that mature specimen in the garden will only be 3-5 feet height x 3-5 feet width. One grower which I did not list shows a pic on their site that a 25 year old is only 2 ft x 2 ft (which do states only growth rate is 1 - 3 inches per year); sorry I can't remember who it was, I spent a couple of hours last night trying to find out who was stating the correct information. The tag from the grower that I found of the #1 states that growth rate is 1-3 inches per year only.

    Anyone out there that has grown and observed this abies pinsapo "horstmann aka horstmann nana" please help to clarify so that I can decide correctly to get and place correctly in my garden. Thank for help.

    Cheers, p.s.: this is my substitute to abies pinsapo "glauca and aurea" for my Seattle garden home, my patiences to finally find has finally been reward after 9 years of request to 5 major nurseries (LOL). Didn't sercome to to temptation of "glauca or aurea" to have this species CV in the collection (LOL - conifer addict). Thank you again for all help.

  • PRO
    David Olszyk, President, American Conifer Society
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Mine has been growing 6 to 8 inches per year in the form of a compact pyramid quite similar to Steve's specimen above. Regardless of anything various growers may want you to think, this is definitely an intermediate growing cultivar. For true dwarfs, I recommend the four witch's broom cultivars selected by Günther Eschrich in the early 2000s. 'Atlas' (WB #2) is probably the best one.

  • midnightsummerdream
    8 years ago

    Glaciers_end; do you have a pic of your abies pinsapo "horstmann aka horstmann nana"?, and the pic above that severnside posted is bluespruce specimen (not grown by Steve - severnside) as he prefaced was bluespruce's), thank you ahead of time for a pic of yours. Also; why is it listed in conifersociety.org as two different CV?, if Clement and others have clarified that these two are one and the same (confusing) of a site that I rely on amongst others to research from?! It also show pics of other CV is pic into two different CV; i,e.: "Tuarek" is shown correctly under "Tuarek", but same pic is also shown for another CV (very confusing/confused). Cheers,


  • zephyrgal pacific nw
    8 years ago

    Will somebody please name mine? Purchased several years ago from the Astoria Farmer's market, unnamed in a gallon container. Growing nicely in my September 2015 Wheeler garden.

    Thank you.






  • midnightsummerdream
    8 years ago

    thanks glaciers_end; will look forward to your pic of your abies pinsapo "Horstmann", maybe you are right about me looking in an older cache-- I will go back to the site conifersociety.org again to go thru and give you the name. I love the pic of your "Tuarek" in your garden; how the area was designed an placement of it (WOW), I have drained my Samsung tablet (pecking with a stylist is a pain) from researching an posting my earlier request, so now on my new laptop with stupid new Windows 10 to post. I did go thru a thread with a tour of your Arboretum; maybe that's an old one too, because it doesn't show whole garden to it's full glory -- now that I have been seeing more pics from forum or conifersociety.org to see it. Thanks again, Cheers

  • midnightsummerdream
    8 years ago

    zephyrgal; yes to glaciers_end of ID of Abies numidica, CV thou is either "Glauca" or "Pendula". When did you get it in as a #1? How long has it been in the ground in your garden? Has it cone for you at all? Cones are spectacular; wish I had the room for one. It's gorgeous and healthy - love it's home placement that you planted in. Cheers,

  • zephyrgal pacific nw
    8 years ago

    And all this time I thought it was a pinsapo. Thanks Dave and Midnightsummerdream. I'm guessing it was planted about 5 years ago after spending a year in the pot before being planted. No cones thus far. Thanks to you both.

  • Mike McGarvey
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I had a Abies pinsapo once. It was about 30 ft tall when the Sapsuckers attacked it, coincidentally just when I removed some lower branches to accommodate some other plants. They hit it so hard it started to suffer and it was getting worse. I took it down.

    Zephyergal, yours looks just like mine did. Perhaps it was started from a branch and is still finding it's way up. Some trees do that slower from a branch than others.

    I have an Abies pinsapo 'Aurea' now, and so far it hasn't been bothered by sapsuckers, but it's only about 8 ft. tall.

    Mike

  • midnightsummerdream
    8 years ago

    zephyrgal; here is a link http://www.esveld.nl/htmldiaen/a/abngla.php to abies numidica "glauca", hope this helps. I like them a lot; hard to find, and you found it at a farmer's market in Astoria?! (LOL) -- WOW. It's very cool; I'm trying to find a miniature or dwarf CV of it for my garden.

    Cheers,

    p.s.: unless needles are stiff needle like a porcupine; now that I tried to look closer, then it would be a abies pinsapo "Glauca" or "Pendula"?! Can you take a closer pic of it's needles or go feel it -- I would go with glaciers_end ID of abies numidica CV thou. Rarer to find in the US.


  • PRO
    David Olszyk, President, American Conifer Society
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    broad, shiny flat top = Abies numidica. Needles on A. pinsapo are radially arranged and more soft (powdered) blue or green in color. The two are very easy to distinguish.

    FWIW, I not aware of any dwarf cultivars of Algerian fir. It's probably pretty tough to get into Algeria to look for brooms.

  • midnightsummerdream
    8 years ago

    thanks glaciers_end; appreciate your knowledge and good humor regarding Algeria to hunt for brooms (LOL), I absolutely agree with your ID of zephyrgal's pics due to color and also length of new growth. Cheers,

  • midnightsummerdream
    8 years ago

    Here is some pics of #1 abies pinsapo "horstmann" that I was able to finally locate for Seattle home garden.

    Your comments and advice regarding this CV; would be appreciated, should this have such gold tones to it?! I'm concern that it looks more like an abies pinsapo "Tuarek" from pics in comparison to the coloration of abies pinsapo "horstmann"; it doesn't have the sulfer gold color of an abies pinsapo "aurea", so I know that --- because for nine years I study "aurea" to keep from getting one of those due to limiting space for this cultivar. Cheers,


  • midnightsummerdream
    8 years ago

    Glaciers_end; I have put your four recommendation of earlier comment, to try and find for my garden. Went thru conifersociety.org to look at each of them. Thank you. Cheers, p.s.: small enough for this conifer addict (LOL)

  • clement_2006
    8 years ago


    My plant, 30 years old, always slow growing and compact , but 3-4 meters hight.

  • midnightsummerdream
    8 years ago

    Thank you Clement; WOW and amazing (30 years old specimen), does new growth have a gold coloration to it? Would you say the width is about 1 - 2 meters? This is my first abies pinsapo for Seattle home garden; it was reasonable for USD25.00 I felt for a #1 (LOL), what do you think? Cheers, p.s.: did you start with #1 to get to this size for the 30 years?

  • Mike McGarvey
    8 years ago

    I see the difference now between Abiies numidica and Abies pinsapo.

    Thanks, Dave. Yeah, it is obvious.

    Mike

  • clement_2006
    8 years ago

    No gold coloration,never, it's the same colour of Abies pinsapo 'Glauca' .

    The width at 2m. are 1 m. He started globose and make a leader after some years.

  • midnightsummerdream
    8 years ago

    Thank you very much (merci beaucoup) Clement; very helpful information as always, I also noticed that your wonderful specimen only has one single leader. Much appreciated of your knowledge and observation. Cheers,

  • maple_grove_gw
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Hi, midnigtsummerdream,

    Congratulations on your new Abies pinsapo acquisition! From the photos you posted it is definitely not Tuarek in my opinion - the plant is too open and fast-growing. Is it really as gold as it appears in the picture? I wonder if the flash has given it a bleached out appearance in your pictures. Even if it is somewhat faded looking, it could be due to nutrient deficiency or just the late-winter tired out look.

    If you come across a source for the other Eschrich broom cultivars, please let us know about it. There are not many nurseries left selling rare and miniature conifer selections (at least via mail-order).

    Alex

  • midnightsummerdream
    8 years ago

    Hi Alex; yes it is as gold as the pics show, I took it this morning at 7:00am PST (to ask for help and advice of my concerns). No flash making it this color; I'm going back to the tree/shrub buyer who I am friends with to find out the grower he got it from some time this week, they got in only four of them in the #1. I will let you know; as I mention earlier -- it's not the sulfur color of "Aurea" either. I have looked at it in all different lighting since I picked it up last Friday (three days ago); waiting for an e-mail back from the buyer, so after looking at glaciers_end recommendation on conifersociety.org for my Seattle home garden -- it looks like "Tuarek".

    I have a neighbor across the street that planted in a #3 or #5 of abies pinsapo "Aurea" about 6 years ago; that I warned was not being given the sufficient amount of space in a 5 ft x 4 ft bed, that already had a dwarf/weeping dogwood and numerous other dwarf and miniature conifers in it and Japanese blood grass (LOL) -- held the #1 of mine to it to compare (LOL). Will try to print a pic of glaciers_end "Tuarek" on photo paper to put next too. Frustrating and confusing.

    Will keep you up to date when I get more info.; appreciate your comments, no nutrient deficiency either - (has lots of new grower fertilizers under their mulch guard, no root bound issue, just don't know?!) I appreciate your initial post to continue this thread; it taught me a lot more about "horstmann aka horstmann nana" being one and the same, others comments, etc. -- Dax mention and speaks highly of you on private e-mail that we have been corresponding. I trust Dax's and Clement's information and help a lot since joining this forum as a source -- and those others that they speak highly of. Cheers,

  • midnightsummerdream
    8 years ago

    Alex; I was tricked once before (7 years ago by Watson's Nursery, Puyallup, WA), picked up a #3 labeled as abies pinsapo "horstmann nana" thinking it was different from abies pinsapo "horstmann" -- put into the ground for three years of observation, before seeing that I got a abies pinsapo "glauca". Pulled and potted it into a medium sized basalt pot about 4 years ago and basically ignored it (meaning no attention to watering or fertilizing, etc.); it grows as observed of this treatment of 3-5 inches a year, took my new #1 to hold next to it (looks just like Clement beautiful specimen of "horstmann" coloration and as he described of it to teach and advise of my request out for help), now more confused. (LOL)

    Cheers, p.s.: now you can understand how appreciative I am of finding your posting thread.

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