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wisconsitom

American Nurseryman-Jan 2015-'Swaps For Spruce'

wisconsitom
9 years ago

Nothing in the article that would shock anyone here, but if you have access, you may enjoy....

Comments (17)

  • barbaraincalif
    9 years ago

    Hope this is the correct link to the above article...

    Here is a link that might be useful: Swaps for Spruce

  • barbaraincalif
    9 years ago

    Hope this is the correct link to the above article...

    I just learned that duplicate posts are caused by using the 'back' button, which resubmits the message!

    Here is a link that might be useful: Swaps for Spruce

    This post was edited by barbaraincalif on Thu, Jan 29, 15 at 10:02

  • Sara Malone Zone 9b
    9 years ago

    Hi Barbara!
    Have you experienced any of the problems noted in the article? P. pungens is one of the most reliable performers here and is practically bullet-proof. It deals with our hot, dry summers with aplomb. I wonder if those issues cited are specific to the Midwest? Many of the others suggested perform well here, too.

    Sara

  • sc77 (6b MA)
    9 years ago

    Picea pungens is the only conifer species I have outright killed multiple times. I was so frustrated by the issues I had with this species, that I started observing them closely. I began noticing that it was very rare to see a tree, older than 15 years that looked really healthy and full. There are some local exceptions, that I cannot explain, and have considered taking cutting from and grafting...but on the whole, this species is not happy here.

    Interestingly, The Arnold Arboretum was observing these same issues in 1911!! They even suggested that the Blue spruce would lose it's appeal in the landscape due to all it's issues and be replaced by Picea engelmannii or Abies concolor, amongst others. (PDF Link)

    It's very unfortunate, as I am a blue conifer addict...but am happy to have found concolor and so far engelmannii (knock on wood) seem to be doing well here.

  • wisconsitom
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    FWIW-and this article deals directly with this-problems with blue spruce in particular, and spruce generally, have ramped up greatly in recent years across the upper midwest. When I was a kid, blue spruce were extremely common and numerous good-looking specimens could routinely be seen. That said, Rhizosphaera needlecast disease and Cytospora canker were known to plague this plant back then, not that I knew anything about any of this. But now, Col. spruce are often in terrible shape and research seems to be pointing to some kind of Phomopsis-usually a weak pathogen-as implicated in all of this. That's the background for this article.

    Incidentally, I've overheard educated people state that it's "too wet" up here for this plant. I believe that's a misperception. I think it's atmospheric moisture that contributes to these problems, not soil moisture. For that matter, in the Rocky Mt. homeland of these trees, they tend to congregate in areas of adequate soil moisture. But of course, the air is almost always dry out there, whereas here and to the east, during the growing season there is typically some humidity, if not a lot of humidity, in the air.

    Check it out-not a bad little read.

    +oM

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    Spruce of various kinds are very common in plantings here. Most of any age are shabby inside when looked at closely, if this is not apparent from a distance. Even otherwise generally attractive Serbian spruce often turns out to have significant aphid damage when you get up to it.

    Except for the locally native Sitka spruce, which becomes among the ugliest of them all on unsuitable local urban sites without an extra moist and fertile soil true firs are even worse here, with pest and disease lists going to the floor.

    Blue Colorado spruces and blue Rocky Mountain juniper cultivars also get algae on the older (more than one or two year old) foliage, so that these are dingy just inside the outer shell even when not prematurely bald and thin.

    Although also frequently attacked by sucking pests dwarf Alberta spruce does often manage to maintain its characteristic appearance for decades - unless a reversion bursts out of it, something I have seen many times. As with other grafted stock of ornamental trees and shrubs in the care of the uninformed, inattentive or indifferent (at one point 60% of Seattle residences were rentals) these reversions may be left to go on and dominate the specimen over time. When a normal Alberta spruce with 'Conica' foliage coming out of the trunk near the base is the result the effect is far from attractive.

    This post was edited by bboy on Thu, Jan 29, 15 at 12:42

  • wisconsitom
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Oh, I thought you paid extra for that feature ;^)

    B, whenever I see Seattle area, like on some news blurb, there are typically heavy-looking, dark green conifers in the background. Granted, this is through a TV screen, but what does look good out there? Doug-trees? I know the enormous western red cedars, as I observed on Vancouver Island (In 1974, lol) looked terrific. But what conifer can be counted on to perform well out in the evergreen state?

    +oM

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    The Pseudotsuga is the dominant native one here, with a lot of the Thuja and Tsuga mixed in where conditions suit them, and the Picea being associated with wetlands - where the Thuja is actually the climax species. Some districts also have a noticeable Abies grandis presence, out in front of my place for instance - and I get seedlings in the yard. In this part of its range it tends to be seen along saltwater bluffs, where moisture and nutrients may be near the surface due to drainage patterns and blowdowns caused by gales allow for reproduction.

    But even though native right here it often becomes visibly shabby and buggy with age, although seldom as hideous as some planted examples of the spruce, with their stickery sparseness and aphid galls.

    As elsewhere the general pattern is for native taxa to be the most successful, with of course some exceptions such as Pacific yew being almost a non-entity horticulturally whereas common yew (usually grown in the Irish yew version) actually seeds out sometimes.

  • Bruce_Quint
    9 years ago

    I read the article a few days back and agree that (overall) it is a good one. The Brenton Arboretum here in Iowa has also tested Abies koreana and stated it has done very well. One they said has done great is Pinus armandii, the Chinese White Pine, but I have never seen these available for sale. Pines (in general) are a harder sell because of the space they will eventually occupy.

    The major problem I have is convincing consumers that blue spruce is not the best conifer for their landscape. The density and color seem to override any possible disease issues which are likely to occur. I'm excited to try out the Picea obovata from Iseli to see if these will remain disease free in our climate. I see blue, white, and black hills spruce dying out all over the place. Funny how the diseases hit some terribly and skip over others.

    My sister works at the Morton Arboretum and they've confirmed needle cast on several species of spruce, including the Picea omorika that was in the article. I think it is rare on an omorika so I still use them. I've also seen Picea meyeri occupying space in nursery publications and listings- has anyone tried it out?

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    The less usual spruces often do not have the beauty of the ones that have become popular favorites.

  • andreas75_gw
    9 years ago

    Hello!

    I don't think its soil or athmospheric humidity that causes your problems with the P. pungens.
    I live here in one of the wettest parts of germany, right between the "Westerwald" and "Bergisches Land", with average annuall precipitation of 850 to 1000 mm, and a average air humidity of 70 to 90 % (more in the relatively mild atlantic influenced winter, less in summer). Before i came here to the north of Rhineland- Palatinate, i live for nearly 30 Years in Berlin (the german one), which is almost semi- aridic in summer (av. 500 to 600 mm rain/ year and sandy soil), and so i can say: Yes, it is VERY wet in here, including thick loamy soil :(...

    In our front yard we have a young Abies grandis as well as a P. pungens, and both of them thrive, and it is more the grandis that gets a little fungus on the foliage after hard frosted winters.
    The pungens thrive well all over germany, the only thing they don't do over here is to self- sow themselves successfully.

    So it must be other problems than humidity in soil or air that weakens your pungens.

    Could it be a solution to select the most resistant specimens and to preferably reproduce from them?

    Regards,
    Andreas

  • barbaraincalif
    9 years ago

    Sara, I have problems growing Picea pungens that are on their own roots (e.g. seedlings, cuttings) because of soil pathogens. Grafted P. pungens grow well here just as long as they are not on P. pungens rootstock.

    Barbara

  • wisconsitom
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks Bb. I knew there has to be SOME good-looking conifers out there!

    Andreas, very interesting. One thing that I believe is indisputable-these problems with spruce are more severe than in the past. Like I said in my OP, a few decades ago, blue spruce of very fine condition were commonplace. The poor conditions cited in this article, and being noticed by everyone everywhere in this region, are of a novel level of virulence. This is not business as usual.

    As for Black Hills spruce......this is a more Western (dry air) version of our native white spruce. Why why why do people here continue to plant this dog of a tree? I love spruce, yet literally hate BHS. They also line up right behind pungens for trouble with this newfound needlecast epidemic. May as well plant a bunch of Austrian pine-another miserable disease magnet, though it was not always so-in our landscape.

    Bruce, I too am excited about Picea obovata. Still better, IMO, would be a land race or geographic "strain"-whatever one wants to call it-such that seed-grown plants would retain at least the tendency towards this glaucus coloration. I'm far more interested in that than what can be achieved-one plant at a time-through grafting. Just personal interest is all-I'm into reforestation and stuff like that, although garden conifers can be wonderful things.

    +oM

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago

    Plantings here are full of conifers, spruces and true firs are more problematic than most of the others.

  • Sara Malone Zone 9b
    9 years ago

    Barbara what rootstock works better? It's interesting - i would list P. p. As one of the most successful plants here.

    Sara

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm not very impressed by the article. It doesn't mention Picea meyeri, or the blue cultivars of Douglas Fir. For the Mid-Atlantic or South, it neglects Cunninghamia. It is amusing that the Arnold Arboretum was warning about them so long ago.

  • wisconsitom
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Yes David, as I mentioned at the very heading of this thread-not an exhaustive article-they never are-in AN. Just an overview really.


    For my part, I would have liked to see mention made of Picea obovata, especially the very blue forms we've discussed here in the recent past.


    +oM

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