I like mass plantings instead of samplers, so I would probably go with something like a line of 'Miss Grace' surrounded by something low and mounding. Slightly more formal, but a nice presentation and a bit different from most of your place.

Also, I would choose a better beer.

I don't know Ken. Seems like something you should do over several years. Start killing those stumps and if you feel like killing yourself, rent a stump grinder as needed and then adding stump killer.

I'd systematically walk my nursery and see what plants I have available, write them all down, and then begin a plan on paper. I don't know any other way than to either draw it or begin with a larger conifer and continue building next to it, plant by plant, walking to and from your nursery as you get a feel for what would look good next to next to next until it's simply all done. I've done a lot of that process here.

You may be better off waiting until you've killed all the stumps and removed them. Easy to say, real damn difficult to do.

Dax

As I recall, the pines went not just because of crowding but because they blocked the view. Are you looking for shorter stuff to preserve the entire view? Or maybe a large tree at one end is ok?

tj

P.S.The beach ball is an interesting focal point. You might keep that.

Seeing the Birch at the end of the bed how about planting a Platanus acerafolia "Sutneri" at the other end to frame the bed with white? Your bed would be anchored and defined by the white with a cacophony of conifer colors complementing and not clashing with the deciduous bed components.
"Sutneri" can be hard to find. email me if you need help with that one.

Ken,

Dax has the best advice. Get your new design cut in and remove all stumps, roots and refuge. Otherwise you will be fighting those stumps and accompanying roots forever and they are a back killer. Depending on your design 1-2 focal point trees/conifers with the rest of the filler plants playing off each other in size and color. I would think a 2-3 year job to accomplish.

The water line...find it, tap it, and use it.

Just a few tidbits. You know what you are going to do. We both know there is a lot more to it when you get into this type of project.

Dave

OMG!!!! byron ... a variegated sycamore ...

i do have a slight aversion to childhood syc's ... but this is nowhere near hosta.. and is sublime ....

oh google worked better under this spelling:

Platanus x acerifolia 'Suttneri'

and a gold star for using cacophony in a sentence on conifers ... it will be my word of the day.. see how many times i can use it elsewhere.. lol ...

the stumps are pine [sylvestrus].. i dont understand why you guys are concerned about killing them ... am i missing something ... werent they dead the minute all the green was cut off??? .... and there is no budget for removal of them .. beside.. i like the ensuing mushroom shows ... maybe some morels will pop up ... now that some water will get under there ... maybe a line of 8 large Grecian urns???? .. using the stumps as bases ... lol .. aint going to happen ...

and BTW.. i dont drink beer when i run a chainsaw.. that is for big burly loggers visiting from the UP ... this guy was like 6' 4' and barely an ounce of fat on him.. and threw around a 24 inch chain saw.. like i throw around a pair of felcos .... lol

unpro.. i was forgetting ground covers.. interesting concept for all of one.. though you have been in the yard.. i doubt you will convince me to not go the sampler route .. lol ... as a collector.. i really dont understand buying two of anything.. lol ... but juniper is rootable.. and well.. its an idea ... hey.. maybe a blue river running thru the yellow versions ... plus throw in the pink/purple of golden spreader .. hmmm ... AND!! .. the juniper horiz are fully bulletproof here ....

SEE!!!! ... this is why i asked.. any idea spurs thoughts .. sometimes the voices in my head.. get stuck on one idea ... and all that gets me is a headache and one idea .. lol ... [its the THINK OUTSIDE MY BOX concept.. i want to hear about your box .. maybe i will visit.. lol] ....

as to the graceful grace suggestion ... doug fir is borderline in z5 .... i have quite a few [a visiting west coaster was amazed i could grow them .. regardless of form] ... but they are not prime specimens ... mostly multi-leadered ... though graceful grace is seeming to do her thing.. across the yard ... but in saying its my coldest spot.. i dont think that is going to favor doug fir ... any other ideas????

TJ... just to the left of the ball ... see the wood pile with coffee cans .. thats target practice with the red rider BB gun.. from the porch .... lol .... the balls vary at the whim of the boy .. lol ...

yes.. it is imperative.. that the height stay below what the pungens already is .... so nothing in the LARGE annual growth rate category ... and if i need to get into the INTERMEDIATE.. i would favor the lower end of that range .... which rules out a lot of the picea abies .. lol .. the weeds that they are in MI ... with those 18 inch leaders ...

ken

ps: cacophony!

'Miss Grace,' not 'Graceful Grace' you old man!

Here is a link that might be useful: Miss Grace

Ken, how big are those stumps in diameter?

There are guys out there, some advertise on craigslist, that grind up to a certain sizes for dirt cheap.

There are two in parciular around here that grind up to 16" stumps for $30. It cost $50 for a 24" wide stump that I had at my old house. Judging from that beverage they look to be around 16". No brainer if you ask me.

Wouldn't worry about the stumps. Grind them out if you want but stump killer on Pinus sylvestris is completely unnecessary. Because the roots of P. sylvestris are deep (when on sand), I've found that unless you need to plant something in exactly the same spot as one of the stumps, simply cutting the stump flush with the ground in sufficient.

As for the bed...I presume you're wanting to do conifers (b/c of the chosen forum)? Why not start with P. orientalis 'Skylands' or 'Aureospicata', one of the very blue Abies concolor, and a long needled hard pine (P. ponderosa or jefferyi). Next tier...Pinus cembra, C. nootkatensis 'glauca', a weeping Larix, and one of the G. bilboa brooms.

I'd agree with that if you can get the stumps flush. I left several stumps that I "could" get semi-flush and topped it with mulch. I have plants within a foot of old stumps. Age and species will determine that distance.

To leave them as is would seem silly since they aren't randomly spaced. At least that is what I went with when deciding what stumps to leave behind.

Which view is from the house? If its the last one thats where I'd say only use dwarf plants (not block the view of the tree line behind). Being the lowest spot in the garden tells me it might maintain good moisture levels. Dogwoods and Vibrunums would a couple genus to start with.

I saw the fall color pallette you posted in the trees forums...never give up the view.

What about leaving the blue spruce for contrast in height with the new fellas. Is there a compelling reason to remove it I missed?

Man you have some room.

Ken after looking at your other link in trees and the spectacular color I can understand removing the Spruce. If it didn't get any bigger it would be ok. Your other photo is spectacular.

Suggestion - why don't you list what you have available in your nursery? That way suggestions could be made based on what you have available. Sure you'll still get other suggestions too. On another note, you need a couple blues at least in there to take the Spruce's place. Whether common things like Globosa or something else but the blues really set off the tree Fall color. Some dwarf red and yellow Jap Maples would be gorgeous if you can have them in your zone to add to the overall picture.
Cher

A comment and question, first if you do want to remove all the stumps you might get a landscaper to come do it for free if they can have the trees you are removing. I would think they would see dollars for that Colorado Blue.

But aside from that can you tell me if the stumps are spaced basically equadistant? They appear to be in a nice line and I was curious if they were spaced about the same.

Mark

Too much of a novice to offer a useful opinion. And being a Californian I will never have enough land to get that level of experience in large plantings of trees. But I'd really like to see pictures when you have decided and planted. I am enjoying your landscape vicariously.

Rosefolly

BB gun target, huh. Must be a cacophony of BBs there making the ground quite loose. You could likely dig there now.

I'd think long and hard about taking out the blue pungens. Looking at pix here and in the tree forum shows that tree to be a resting place for the eye (you remember, negative space). To the eye, without the pungens, there is a lot of similar sized stuff and deciduous stuff making the view busy. It helps to ground or anchor the view. Might think of a hemlock in the sargent class (Tsuga canadensis 'Sargent' or its ilk) or an unstaked weeping blue pungens to take its place if it does go.

tj

I think you should pant an entire bed of snake spruce and other odd and cortorted pants. Including weeping beeches, In 20 years it would be awesome. You could even throw in some of the large leaf magnolias

ok.. reviewing sine my last reply... smivies has apparently never heard my rants about P. orientalis 'Skylands' .. or is really messing with my head.. lol ... that will not happen ... 7 times is enough 'tries' with that thing ...

jsut forget about grinding out the stump ... the budget is plants OR!!! ... grinding ... and frankly.. with 4.5 acres.. i think i can spare 8 two foot spots ...

the issue on the pungens.. is doing it for free... while there is nothing else there ... 'me make fall down' .. and destroy ... if i wait.. and plant a bunch of stuff.. then its $500 min and a guy with a cherry picker ... etc.. again.. budget of plants versus hiring peeps ...

will ... step out my front door.. onto the deck.. and all pix are from that perspective.. i am guessing an 8 foot drop ... actually.. if the subdivider/builder had finished the sub.. the road.. would have run right across this area ...

the house was built in '85 or so.. i am guessing the pines were an arbor day planting of 6 inchers.. from original owners daughters school ... about 8 foot on center ... stumps range from 18 to 24 inches ....

i dont think JMaples will take the brunt of a cold z5 winter.. especially winter winds.. especially in the hole .. or cold sink the area is in ....

as to the cacophony of BB's ... think of it as adding iron to the soil .. lol ... and a copper coating..

all the deciduous behind.. will be limbed up .. someday.. lol .. to the eyeball height of the line of plants far behind ... being that this planting will be in the 8 foot hole ... even 8 to 10 footers .. will be OK.. over the long run.. but the limit will have to be 15 to 20 feet ... annual growth rate.. blah.. blah ... so i dont want anything with those 18 inch leader every spring .....

link to the tree post.. two of the views are of this same bed.. again from the front door ....

i have two mag's.. the start is right next to the pungens.. bulletproof ... and i have a saucer .. un-pictured to the right ... and i get a good display 2 out of 5 years ... very borderline in my cold z5 ... subject to frost freeze on buds.. usually the night before they open.. lol .. or often .. a wind storm the day after they open.. i dont think large leaf mag's will be much of an option ....

hmmmm.. keep the ideas coming .... PLEASE!!!

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

Look at the bloom time for your large leaf magnolias. Being native to the US they dont bloom as early as the asian magnolias. They are planted for the leaf size to, not as much for the bloom. The top magnolia breader is in the US and likely the world is Dennis Ledvina who lives in Green Bay so his introduction are very hardy. Many of the newer yellow magnolias bloom much later as they have accuminata in their breeding. Dave Danaher can tell you which ones have done the best and bloom the lasted in his jobs if you want to add some additional spring color.

I would say a mixed planting of larches and birch.

I'd plant Tamarack (Larix laricina), interplanting with some type of birch - Plain ole paper birch ought to do fine there in Michigan, or even the seldom-used Yellow birch.

You've got quite a few possibilities here, actually - Go wild!

Hi Ken,

Just a quick suggestion in response to one of your comments...for cold hardy Japanese maples, you can look into selections of Acer shirasawanum. They're more hardy than and should be good in Z5. Though they will like a protected location when in leaf, so if you have lots of wind in the spring/summer, it might still be a no-go. Maybe elsewhere though, since your garden does seem to suffer from a deficit of maples.

Alex

Here is a link that might be useful: Some Shirasawa maples

Here are some more alternatives, with the same caveat from above. I am cutting and pasting this from 'Essence of the Tree' website:

Colder climates (Midwest, North and Northeast) All of the trees from the Acer Japonicum species are hardy to zone 5. They are later to emerge in spring and earlier in approaching dormancy, this is a wonderful group to choose from for a cold climate especially for fall color. Acer Shirasuwanum is another cold tolerant species. Our native Acer Circinatum is also hardy to zone 5 and offers many recent introductions of special interest for a northern garden. Some Acer Palmatum are more cold tolerant than others. The weeping dissectum and the dwarf yatsabusa types are early to emerge and will require protection from late frosts. Some suggestions:

Spring color:

A.s. Aureum
A.s. Autumn moon
A.p. Orange Dream
A.c. Sunglow
A.s. Moonrise
A.s. Jordan
Weeping and Cascading:

A.j. Maiku jaku
A.j. Oregon Fern
A.j. Fairy Lights
A.p Ryusen
Dwarf:

A.p. Coonara Pygmy
A.p. O jishi
A.p. Kamagata
A.c. Del's Dwarf
A.p. Mikawa Yatsubusa
Summer red color:

A.p.x A.s. Yasmin
A.p.x A.s. Oregon Sunset
A.s. Johin
A.p. Adrian's Compact
A.c. Burgandy Jewel
Fall color:

A.j. Vitafolium
A.j. Itaya
A.j. Fairy Lights
A.j.Yama kagi
A.j. Maiku Jaku
Winter bark Interest:

A.c. Pacific Fire

Here is a link that might be useful: Essence of the tree

I vote for a collection of Shantung Maple cultivars. ;-D

Here is a link that might be useful: Shantung maple culitvars

I'm a guy that likes a little art in my garden. Not something outlandish or that takes away from the trees and plants, but gives the eye something to see when traveling across my garden. That was why I asked about the stump centering.

If they are 18-24" across that's a pretty good sized mounting platform and also fairly similar in size. And if they are in fact straight in a line as the picture shows and fairly equidistant apart I would suggest leveling the tops of the stumps to one general height if they vary much and then use them as platforms for some kind of art display with plantings in between.

You could maybe put something metal birds on them as one idea. I had some utility tombstones I needed to cover up on my property so I covered them in cedar boxes I built and then got a set of herons in various patina metallic finishes and in various poses and mounted them in combinations on top of the boxes. They looked much better than the utility tombstones and the rusting metal is very organic.

Another possibility would be to do a tall metal shape coming out of the top of each stump like maybe a piece of bent iron work in a celtic design that all match or are in combinations of similar designs and sizes. I love old rusted iron work in a garden. It gives it a very natural feel while adding eye candy to the display.

As I said art doesn't have to be some slap you in the face thing like a bright colored object that makes you see it and not the garden......it can be very esthetically and natural pleasing and actually enhance your garden's look and appeal.

Then you could maybe put some nice columnar shaped or smaller trees or shrubs between them. Maybe show off a series of similar and connected varietals. One idea might be a series of the smaller and pretty redbuds for instance. There are some great new variegated ( Silver Cloud and Floating Clouds )and colorful leafed varieties ( Rising Sun - my new favorite ) now that stay fairly small or maybe a narrow/weeping form ( Ruby Falls ). Most of these redbuds are good to zone 6 and most to zone 5. And redbus will give you that real burst of spring color in the garden. Just one idea.

mark

For curiosity and interest, you could plant an Acer pensylvanicum - Striped maple. A very pretty small tree, with outstanding bark and beautiful leaves.

I don't know if heaths and heathers are hardy in your climate, but if they are and you don't have a hate for them they would do good in your sandy soil. I assume you don't want to block your new view with the Scots removed, so you could add some low growing pines and junipers and maybe a few boulders to add interest. Maybe off to each side the view could be framed with white barked bbb resistant betula's. Kind of a northern European landscape.

Thought just occurred to me...One thing I might do is save one of those stumps for that pig in your "sandbox". A Pinus Porcine Pedestal, as it were, or Sus sylvestris. lol

I would haul in some truck loads of nice black soil and put in undulating mounds so that I could show off a larger collection of miniature conifers. It will also make it easier to plant your new conifers without hitting all those roots from the old trees.

When planting, I would start with my focal points (special, larger, unique) conifers, get them placed and work my way down in size and shape.

I love Mark's idea of some natural art on the stumps. I too love old iron in the gardens.

I cannot wait to see your progress and what you decide to do with all this space.

Ken, you wrote that that new bed is in a low spot, so probably you want to create a berm to let any water run away to the borders of the bed. Then that berm would cover up the stumps, or cut the stumps flush to the ground first, and then place a few inches of soil over them.
In respect to heathers, there are hardy ones for zone 5. I grow heathers between my dwarf conifers. They come in different colors and sizes. But you need to add humus to the sand, because they like acidic wet soil. Heathers can be easily multiplied.
Bernd