Actually it is not generally fit, and this is mentioned repeatedly (see below). I only see cultivars of it on the market here, and very few examples of much size and age in local plantings - but although very common, true firs in general get buggy and ratty with age in this area (populated lowlands).

"Zone 5, but in the Northeast likely to lose its lower brs. and to become thin"

--Cornell University 1976

"Grown in North America since [before/during]1847, overall, it is inferior in insect-resistance, strength and endurance to A. nordmanniana, so has been comparatively little planted in recent years, but its cultivars offer special opportunities"

--Arthur Lee Jacobson, 1996

"Subject to injury from late spring frosts and one of the least satisfactory species for the southern counties of the British Isles"

--Hillier Nurseries 2002

"Brought to Britain in 1603; becoming rare here except in upland regions where long-lived and still frequent. No longer used in forestry, as in the mild, oceanic climate it has become very vulnerable to defoliation by the aphid Adelges nordmannianae"

--Owen Johnson 2004

This post was edited by bboy on Tue, Jan 7, 14 at 14:33

i have one.. i think green spiral ... from Stanley and sons.. no clue as to understock ... or if thats an issue ....

its one of those.. i wish would die.. but never does... and has looked like carp for 10 years...

i always figure ... all of a sudden.. it will get on with life.. but it never does..

in bboys comments... spring damage of buds leaps out ... as i think mine has lost its leader repeatedly ... after this weather.. remind me in may.. maybe i can give you further feedback ....

to sum it up.. in 10 years or so.. i dont think i ever snapped a single pic of it... lol ..

ken

I only have the small A. alba 'Hedge' from Stanley. This is its fourth winter but it is always buried in snow.

tj

Per BBoy's comments...the negativity is heavily tilted towards those inhabiting marine climate areas, not continental ones like where I live. Certainly, Seattle area and British Isles experience would be poor predictors for my region.

Beyond that, it simply goes to show you the variation in what one can find to read on the web. I'm not at the same computer now as I was when I posted that, so I don't know what those sources were/are, but there were a number offering a very different view. Even cold-hardiness was rated differently....as Z3 and Z4 I believe. As to the Cornel statements, they at least could be useful in making a determination.

Then there's the cultivars......which I think tend to tell us something about the species, but that it is also true that we don't quite know what it's telling us!

+oM

How about Grand fir, Abies grandis?

This fir is cold-hardy (If you find an inland strain) and adaptable, and reportedly can take "fluctuating water tables and floods". (usda forest service)

I've seen some around the Chicago area, and I think one around here (I've never stopped to identify it, as it's in someone's front yard). Seem to do quite well, and hold their form. Supposedly one of the fastest-growing firs in the west; not sure about there performance in the east.

In general, it's more difficult to find fir seedlings in nurseries compared to spruce seedlings because fir seeds are more difficult to collect. A fir tree makes far fewer seeds than a spruce tree in a given year, and fir cones disintegrate faster on the tree.

There are commercial sources of seed for most firs - They're just a little more expensive. (Not terribly - I've got a few fir plugs growing now, and will be starting much more in February - You can still make a decent profit on fir seedlings)

>As to the Cornel statements, they at least could be useful in making a determinationYou're welcome!

Such an excellent group here, it's always so rewarding to take the time out of my day to post a reply that takes some time and effort.

Tom and folks:

There is an Abies alba growing in the fir section at the National Arboretum. It is a relatively young tree, maybe 18 feet tall, but it looks quite nice, at least when I last saw it about 6 years ago. I was a bit surprised it was doing so well. Unless you hear about problems in your area, Tom, I would try one, or a few. But a lot of firs do well for 10 or 20 years, but by age 40 or so, are not very attractive.

Here at my place in northern VA, which is drought prone, I have decided not to try one. I have 11 other firs growing here, and I can't have them all, unless I want to make that my first objective. For my area, there are better choices.

One issue may be seed source/provenance. There may be different strains from different parts of Europe.

--spruce

From what I recall Abies alba is one of the worst firs for our area. More prone to fungal issues, insect infestations, tends to break bud early thus prone to frost damage, poor poor drought tolerance as we don't have the appropriate rainfall.

Its the only hardy fir not in my collection. The only decent (older) firs I see around here are Abies concolor if they have proper drainage.

"One issue may be seed source/provenance. There may be different strains from different parts of Europe"

Definitely. Probably best to go for origins from the Balkans in southeast Europe - though these are actually probably better classified as Abies borisii-regis.

Resin

Well, that answers another question I had, that of the difference(s) between A. alba and A. borisii-regis! And Spruce, and whaas, thanks for your comments.

So here's the tableau: As many of you know, I've planted large numbers of conifer seedlings at my land. Main species are Picea abies, Pinus strobus, Pinus resinosa, and Larix marschlinsii. There are, of course, a few others in the mix.

The woods on my property is in the zone where Abies balsamea is common. I've got just a few, but area-wide, they are common. Not so much within the already-wooded part of my property, but more so in and amongst the seedlings of these other species I've planted, I'd like to add in a smattering of some kind of fir. I may simply opt to go with balsamea, of which there are many growing in the ditch, so to speak. Or I may go with Canaan fir, which at least on paper looks interesting. Itasca, which is where I get a lot of my stuff, also lists a hybrid between a Minnesota strain of balsamea with Abies fraserii, which could also be an interesting variant on the basic Canaan idea.

But finally, I'd also like some more long-term plants...trees which can at least begin to match up with the life expectancy of the conifers listed above. A. balsamea does not make the cut where that requirement is added. I wouldn't mind if I could get considerable height/girth out of a few fir trees too, which again, balsam fir and its ilk don't usually do.

I once picked up some nordmannianas in an end-of-season blowout. They are still alive but suffered from being planted much too late in the year-late Nov. if memory serves. It didn't do them any good. So therefor, if there is any one fir species which might at least potentially offer me the ability to grow long and large, I'd try it.

I like concolor very much, at least when it looks happy. But there too, many of those I see are fairly weak-looking. Every now and then I'll see a good one or two, but just as often, I'll see one that appears decidedly ill-suited to its environment.

Soil up there is sandy, stony loam-pretty good for trees. For the most part, I've got an abundance of well-drained sites available, even given that within my woods proper, there are free-flowing springs, areas of muck soil, and what is called around here a "cedar swamp". I'd be way up the hill from there in any case.

The only other tree-planting I've got in mind is to install a few bigtooth aspen. I have quaking aspen and balsam poplar already present in my woods, but no bigtooth, which to me is the most interesting and attractive of the bunch (Populus). But I guess that's not exactly coniferous, now is it!?

+oM

Tom:

My timberland in Western MD is in Z5. It can be quite harsh there, and recently we went down to -15. No hint of any hardiness issues. One difference between the mountains in Western MD and your climate, is that in MD we have a lot of big fluctuations--lots of mild periods in addition to cold and snowy ones.

I have two nice Nordmanns growing there, and a few more small saplings. The A. bornmueleriana has done very well also. For a few years I had problems with late frosts, but they didn't set them back too much. The Abies holophylla, which grows so well in VA is growing well there also, but not nearly so well, so that might not be a good choice for your climate.

In your place, I would give the Nordmanns another try, or the A. borisii-regis mentioned by Resin. But, given your soil, they may need a little help with watering during dry spells. I have watered mine here a lot for the first few years, but then we are especially drought prone here.

I read a long time ago, an article, or maybe an opinion expressed more informally, that firs are often somewhat more hardy than they are generally reported to be--that a number of them can withstand temperatures lower than they face in their native ranges. I have planted a number of firs, as I have said, and none has ever had any hardiness issue. But one problem is some are very susceptible to late frosts. I often have to cover my little ones here north of Winchester, VA.

Tom, I hope you find the right fir--or several. They really are wonderful, and will offer something different form the other conifers. And, as David pointed out recently, many have delightful fragrance.

Oh, another issue--they are usually much slower starters than pines, spruces, and larches, so they will need more weeding for a somewhat longer period.

Maybe there is an arboretum somewhere near. Maybe someone at the U of Wisconsin could offer some advice. In "my day" I was on the phone a lot to all sorts of people in all sorts of places, ferreting out some wonderful information. Maybe there is someone at the Arnold Arboretum in MA who could give you ideas. I walked through that Arboretum many years ago, and they had some huge old fir trees--wonderful--but I can't now remember, reliably, which species. They have a website with, I think, a list of what they have there--you might search that.

--spruce

Thanks Spruce-will check out additional sources of info.

+oM