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mersiepoo

Italian stone pine- how much cold can they take?

mersiepoo
11 years ago

I was bamboozled, I guess, I bought the pine tree for a 'live' tree for Christmas from Brecks...they didn't give zone information but said it would survive in temperate climates...so now I am looking for info on how 'temperate' they mean. I keep seeing zone 8 or even 7, but I'd hate to have this beautiful tree bite it next year (or this year) because of a cold snap. Is this pine going to be stuck living out winter in the unheated garage? Inquiring minds want to know. Also, if I can keep it potted, will I even ever get any pine cones from the poor little waif? I tried for 2 years to grow siberian stone pines, they seem to die as soon as I plant them, and now Jung seed co isn't even carrying them anymore.

Comments (50)

  • pineresin
    11 years ago

    Zone 8. And for its first few years while it is still in juvenile foliage (short single blue-green needles), it needs to be on the mild side of zone 8 too. Once adult, it'll take an occasional severe winter cold snap down to around -15ðC (maybe even a degree or two lower), but it doesn't generally like anything below about -10ðC.

    Sorry, it won't cone in a pot, unless the pot is huge. If you want to try growing pine nuts, Pinus koraiensis or Pinus edulis would probably be your best options (depending on where you are in zone 6).

    Resin

    This post was edited by pineresin on Tue, Jan 1, 13 at 18:19

  • Embothrium
    11 years ago

    Have seen it burnt (but not killed) by colder winters in this part of USDA 8.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    11 years ago

    I will challenge Mr. Resin (something I don't undertake lightly) to say they are a bit hardier. Maybe 7b in a climate with hot summers.

    I'm well aware the zone is just a designation of average annual lows and a given area can expect to go below the zone threshold; the degree to which that happens varies by location though. I could almost certainly find zn 7 locations, on, say, the Chesapeake Bay (or far Cape Cod...but summers might be too chilly there) that have never been below -7F that the NCSU arb. hit that day - not damaging a large P. pinea - and thus it's likely these zn 7 locations could support a P. pinea. Or at least one of that clone. Contrast with Dulles airport that is also zn 7 but has hit -18F, and in theory could do so again.
    BTW I saw that NCSU P pinea in the mid 1990s. I'm pretty sure it had to be cut down for the new visitor center. From what I remember it was starting to form the flat top and had the characteristic look; and I doubt a stickler like JC would have permitted a mislabeled plant in his arboretum. Still I don't think one can 100% rule out that it wasn't hybridized.

    I had one in my first garden which was near Dulles airport; it was planted after the horrid 1994 winter (last time the Potomac froze solid enough to walk from DC to VA!) but still endured plenty of drops down to the single digits w/o damage. Zn 8 is still fine as a "safe" designation; I'm just adding this for completeness. PLanting a borderline tree is a much bigger commitment than a borderline bulb.

    Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.ncsu.edu/jcraulstonarboretum/publications/newsletters/ncsu_arboretum_newsletters/News12_85-07.html

  • liopleurodon
    11 years ago

    I'm in zone 8 and my neighbours used to have a Pinus pinea in their front yard.
    Two years ago the tree was severly damaged by a cold winter so they decided to remove it.

    Planting it outside in Z6 is not recommended. I don't know if the tree will die but it most certainly won't like it.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    11 years ago

    I agree zn 6 is pushing it too far. With the mild winters the US is having recently, it might last a couple years or so, but a cold winter will eventually get it. Even in a colder part of zn 7 - which is why I said zn 7b instead of just 7 - a really cold, once every 30-50 yr. winter could kill it, meaning you'll have a huge and expensive tree carcass removal task on your hands.

  • mersiepoo
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    I really really appreciate all the awesome advice everyone!

    Does anyone think it may survive as a potted tree if I can keep it in an unheated garage with some light over the winter? Even though we're zone 6A we usually get 0 degrees F as the 'coldest' weather, though we do go below that sometimes- I know when we go below 0 because my zone 7 bamboo (nigra-henon) top kills.

    Not sure what the temps are in the garage though, but I'd assume they're about 30 degrees F.
    So much for trusting Brecks! Maybe I should do more research on getting siberian stone pines and trying to keep them alive. Anyone have any comments on those buggers?
    Figures Jung seed doesn't have them anymore. Le sigh!

  • Embothrium
    11 years ago

    >Just to compare, it is hardier than C. deodaraC. deodara varies.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    11 years ago

    Osprey, good to see you again...thanks for sharing your experience.

  • ospreynn
    11 years ago

    bboy, you're right. I meant to say that the ones (C. deodara) I have suffered severe needle damage whereas the P. pinea did not.
    david, I still visit this place at least once a week... just haven't posted anything..

    osprey

  • coxarb
    11 years ago

    We have large tree (6m) that has seen -11C w/ no damage. Thus far it has failed to show the round form that is characteristic of what I have seen in S. Spain, Italy and California. Really nice bark though.

  • Embothrium
    11 years ago

    All around here form the round broad top early in life. Multiple examples to look at, as it is sold as a tabletop Christmas tree. Foliage burn tends to appear on those occasions when it gets below 10-15 degrees F.

    Are you sure yours is correctly identified? It seems Pinus pinaster might be mistaken for it, for instance.

  • coxarb
    11 years ago

    The bark and sporadic sprouts of juvenile foliage are characteristic of P. pinea. Around here they are sold as small Christmas trees like one would place on a table.

  • pineresin
    11 years ago

    "The bark and sporadic sprouts of juvenile foliage are characteristic of P. pinea"

    And a few other pines as well. I'd agree with bboy, the crown shape is diagnostic, so if it isn't shown, the identity is at least suspect. Can you add a photo or two?

    Resin

  • coxarb
    11 years ago

    form or this pine received as P. pinea

  • coxarb
    11 years ago

    bark on this pine received as P. pinea

  • coxarb
    11 years ago

    bud and needles of this pine received as P. pinea

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    11 years ago

    Here are some small ones:
    (leftmost column, 3rd row)
    http://www.uludagfidanligi.com/gallery.html

    What I got from Forestfarm definitely had the short, blueish foliage and only a handful of full-sized needles. when received. It was a spindly 2 feet tall. By the time I left that garden it was bushy, completely green and maybe 4 ft. tall...just like the ones you see in that picture.
    Cox Arboretum's looks a little suspiciously upright and open, but that could be its situation right? Mine was on a south wall with 100% sunlight.

    Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.uludagfidanligi.com/gallery.html

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    11 years ago

    "Figures Jung seed doesn't have them anymore. Le sigh!"

    Just keep your eyes peeled around people's trash piles, aren't many small ones still sold as Christmas trees? I know I saw some either this Christmas or last, for sale at the podunk local grocery store. Which actually brings to mind something of a mystery: true Mediterranean pine nuts, as previously discussed, are almost impossible to get in the US. Years ago I called most of the Northeast's notorious/preposterous gourmet food purveyors - Dean & Deluca, Balduccis/Sutton Place, some Italian one I'm forgetting, etc. - and their only pine nuts were made in China. HOWEVER, how do they grow these things by the million, right here in the US of A, if P. pinea seeds are hard to come by?!

    Considering they are way easier to grow on the East Coast than Monkey Puzzle, it's a bit of a mystery that at least a few mature ones are not known in sufficiently mild parts like Norfolk, VA, from people simply planting those Christmas decorations. Maybe the labels say they won't survive outside as a general warning to people in climes like North Dakota. But mine was quite trouble free, and like I said sailed through several winters of single digits. I was in VA Beach/Norfolk recently and in spite of keeping my horticultural eyes peeled, I didn't see any. Of course they might not be easy to spot amid all of the other pines.

    This post was edited by davidrt28 on Wed, Jan 9, 13 at 14:58

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    11 years ago

    "I tried for 2 years to grow siberian stone pines"

    Oh, I see this now! You weren't looking for Pinus pinea from Jung after all!

  • Embothrium
    11 years ago

    Foliage burned by lower double digits here. So then the question becomes were the ones back there that "sailed" correctly identified.

    The Cox tree is something else, as expected.

  • pineresin
    11 years ago

    To my surprise, the Cox Arb tree does look like a (very etiolated) Stone Pine. The needles, and more importantly the buds with their characteristic recurved bud scales, are right. The only other pines with similar bud scales are Pp. pinaster, halepensis, brutia, roxburghii, canariensis; and it isn't any of those. I'd guess its position in shade & shelter has protected it from the worst of the cold.

    Resin

  • Embothrium
    11 years ago

    If that's true, then the umbrella head will be coming later, when it gets more light.

  • pineresin
    11 years ago

    Yep.

    Resin

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    11 years ago

    "Foliage burned by lower double digits here. So then the question becomes were the ones back there that "sailed" correctly identified."

    It came from Forestfarm and I'm pretty sure it's something they could manage to identify correctly.
    If the trees at NCSU & NM were undamaged by -6F but 12F injured them in Seattle, this is definitely another case of being able to harden better in a hot climate. And the western Med. was obviously colder during the ice ages. Even now, Seville has a recent record low of 17 ðF, -8C, which is rather cold for a low-elevation, almost-coastal place in a warm-maritime climate with an average winter low of 41F/5C, and several sets of mountains and bodies of water between it and Siberia. Comparable to San Bernardino, CA, which is higher in elevation, further from water, and not on a Peninsula with hundreds of miles of water to the N. There seems to be something about Spain's elevation profile that allows cold air to spill over the whole country via the Pyrenees.

    This post was edited by davidrt28 on Thu, Jan 10, 13 at 4:29

  • pineresin
    11 years ago

    "this is definitely another case of being able to harden better in a hot climate"

    Could be, though despite Britain's (by comparison) very cold summers, I've never seen it damaged here. The coldest I've seen specimens experience is -13C; no idea how that compares with bboy's nonstandard figures.

    Resin

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    11 years ago

    Also notable that, while the western Mediterranean is basically free of rain in summer, it's muggier, warmer at night, and probably has higher soil temps. than California. When I visited Barcelona is wasn't East Coast humid, but it didn't seem like the western US either. I definitely would not have been able to sleep w/o AC windows open or not. This is why it can grow in parts of the SE while almost no CA/Western pines can. NCSU does somehow have a P. flexilis - might be grafted on something more tolerant - and W&M in Virginia had a beautiful Pinus monticola, but I think it was removed for a new building. If you go to the NCSU site now, you'll see a picture of a Pinus pinea that replaced the one I saw in the mid 90s. It's grown to about the same size now, 21 ft., but they don't have a current picture. I believe it also had to replaced for a visitor center.

    Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.ncsu.edu/jcraulstonarboretum/horticulture/current_plantings/current_plantings_results.php?fullname=pinus&commonname=&family=&bed=&accessionnumber=&submit=Submit

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    11 years ago

    Another interesting thing. They have a picture of one in San Antonio, TX. Which, although drier than the rest of the SE in summer, can surely be muggier than ANYWHERE in Spain (max avg. nightly low of 24C versus 19.5C for Seville) and has undoubtedly had hurricanes or errant monsoons that brought monthly summer rainfall figures up to 20cm/8 inches or more, something that cannot happen in its native habitat. ANY pine from the western USA would be utterly destroyed by San Antonio's climate.

    Here is a link that might be useful:

    This post was edited by davidrt28 on Thu, Jan 10, 13 at 5:14

  • Embothrium
    11 years ago

    The common cultivar 'Vanderwolf's Pyramid' originated in New Jersey. It is sold as Pinus flexilis but is different from the Rocky Mountain trees, said to have the characters of the more southern P. reflexa (P. flexilis reflexa), which grows natively under moister climate conditions.

  • coxarb
    11 years ago

    Since injecting comments and pictures into this thread I've done some further investigation of the tree that I have accessioned as P. pinea and believe it to in fact be the species. Except for the form, it 100% keys out. As information, the tree is sited in full sun and hopefully over time will develop the characteristic rounded form. Thanks for all the posts, this has been interesting.

  • neonrider
    11 years ago

    Does anyone know at what temperatures does Pinus pinea resume its growth in zones 8 and 9?

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    11 years ago

    hey neon.. what in the world does that question have to do with this very old post???

    why not start a new post ...

    all that.. and its a soil temp issue.. more than air temp issue .... perhaps elevation.... let us know where you are in your new post ... big city ...???

    ken

  • neonrider
    11 years ago

    Resume growth in spring. Am in country, small town, zone 8 or 9. Hope this is clear enough.

  • slama.wbgarden
    11 years ago

    Hi, old Rome Italian stone pine ...
    Italian stone pine
    Jan Slama wbgarden

    Here is a link that might be useful: Dwarf conifers garden

  • clement_2006
    11 years ago

    The last photo showed Cox , are a bud of Pinus pinaster.
    Clement

  • MountLebanon
    10 years ago

    Here in Lebanon (Mount), stone pine groves are inherited. The zone they grow in is between 1000 and 3000 feet up here. Above that, it is a bit too cold in winter, plus they suffer too much from snow breakage. In the picture, you can see the zones. I guess the minimum winter temperature here is just around below freezing point.

  • neonrider
    10 years ago

    Thanks everyone for beautiful posts. Does anyone know at what temperatures does Pinus pinea resume its growth in spring?

    By the way, I used a regular pine tree and kept pinching the top shoots off when the new shoots appear and I developed a look a little bit like umbrella shape with regular pine, yet it looks a bit different than Pinus pinea. More dense at the top and straight up. And its less spread at the top.

  • pineresin
    10 years ago

    "Does anyone know at what temperatures does Pinus pinea resume its growth in spring?"

    Never tried measuring, but it begins growth fairly late in spring here, so I'd guess maybe around 12ðC to 15ðC

    Resin

  • neonrider
    10 years ago

    Pineresin, thanks. Do you mean day or night temps when they hit 12 to 15C? We had more than that most winter days, but nights can get chilly or freezing down to -5C and I have not noticed any fast growth, but I think even if Pinus pinea tends to brown a lot while small (a handful ones don't and about 50% die for unknown reasons before reaching 1-2 years of age), the browned branches seem to grow new stuff in some areas of the browned branches, but still they look brown even now in April and even if there is growth it is very slow and insignificant as it seems. This is why I suspect a really visible growth may be occurring when day and night temps hit 20C and above (?). Will see. I mean, I'm talking about those 2-3 year olds and not the seedlings anymore. (Sorry, bad English).

  • pineresin
    10 years ago

    I was meaning average daytime temperatures; by the time it reaches that here, the risk of further night frost is very low. I'd guess with your greater diurnal temperature range (greater difference between day & night temps), it might be dissuaded from budding until your frosts are over.

    If it had to wait until "day and night temps hit 20C and above" here, the buds would never break ;-)

    Resin

  • jae_57
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Can you burn this wood in a wood fire when you take down this tree? We are in the process of removing one, and not sure what to do with the wood.

  • pineresin
    8 years ago

    Like other pine wood, liable to throw sparks, so be careful.


    Resin


  • donna_emulady
    6 years ago

    I have a question I am not really smart and dont really understand C and zone's so can you just tell me how much below freezing can it take please


  • User
    6 years ago

    These should help you.

    C = celcius (formerly centigrade), Celcius to Farenheit converter:

    USDA hardiness zones.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    While this thread has been so bizarrely bumped - I'll say we're going to find out in my neighborhood. One of my neighbors has a couple she grew from the "disposable" Christmas ornament plants, she had been putting them in her garage but this year says the pots (huge half barrels) are too big to move in. So far, so good, down to 10F. But the next few nights might finish them off. They are definitely the right thing, the dimorphic foliage is highly distinctive and identifiable. When I told her they are borderline hardy around here, especially in a container, she flashed me her "the good Lord will look after my plants, son" eye. And maybe He will!

    She also has the hardy Amaryllis that QVC was hawking a few years ago, which I suspect are seedlings (perhaps apomictic) of H. X johnsonii.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    OH, and, I'm not even going to thoroughly re-read what I posted on this thread, much less anyone else...but the thing about them being sold for ages as Christmas decoration must give us some clue about their hardiness. Yes, there was a big one that survived -9F at NCSU. Now cut down to make way for the visitor center...I did see it on my first visit in 1997. Maybe you could say, 'alright, people in DC like to follow rules so they're gonna look at that tag that says "tropical plant" (LOL) and throw it out.' So this explains why we don't see any in Potomac or Alexandria. But surely many a Baltimore hon in Essex or Rosedale must have planted one in her yard after Christmas, or Italian-Americans living in South Jersey or the inner boroughs of Philadelphia? Yet we know of none in those parts of zone 7.

  • Kevin Sanders
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    My experience with Italian Stone Pines ( Pinus pinea ) in zone 7 zip code 23089 is that the "Christmas Trees sold at say walmart covered with glitter and grown quickly in a greenhouse and very susceptible to fungus and are not at all cold weather hardy since they are actively growing in the greenhouse when sold . I've bought a number of them but they all died. I have had good results with juvenile trees bought from forestfarm https://www.forestfarm.com/pinus-pinea-pipi380  . I would buy them early in spring and grow them in large pots for a couple years until they develop their adult ( long green , not short blue needles ) then wrap them in burlap until they get too big to reasonably do that anymore . last winter we had temps about 0 F and the needles all turned brown on but the buds survived . . They need lots of air circulation in the warm months especially when young due to fungal damping off . This is a picture of one transitioning from immature to mature needles

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I found the one I had back in the mid 1990s to be pretty hardy; the erstwhile management of Forestfarm said their seed came from one in some frost hollow of western WA that had seen very low temperatures by PNW standards. Current management of Forestfarm knows nothing about this...too bad they didn't keep better notes. And, I think this reflect a general thing going on with Forestfarm. They will still have rare plants but not someone - an owner-operator-plant-lover - going through the tedious steps to obtain the "best of all possible rare plants". (always time for a little Panglossian optimism!)

    I really don't think they are particularly susceptible to fungus for any reason other than having been pumped full of nitrogen to get them into fast growth...when sold as the decidedly odd looking 'mini Christmas trees'. They grow in Texas around the dry line, which certainly can be humid! Years ago someone posted a picture of some big ones in San Antonio. And also of course one grew in North Carolina. I think, south of say Richmond, VA, they are just under planted, and north of it, likely to die back in the coldest of winters.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Update: There is one at the SFASU Mast Arboretum in East Texas.

    Strange to read these old posts. I wonder how Osprey and Resin are doing. Certainly the vast majority of people who have posted, shall we say, through an entire era of GW's history, are gone. For example the Spike era, the other company whose name I forgot era, the NBC era, etc. I found some very early representative pages in the internet archive, and none of the names are recognizable these days.

  • Renee Shoemaker
    4 years ago

    I'm Italian ?