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Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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Posted by firefightergardener WA state, z7 (My Page) on Thu, Jan 22, 09 at 21:03
| From what I have learned from experts and read from books, it appears to me that dwarf and miniature conifers do OK in part shade, in fact may even prefer it.
I'm curious what other people have found both with dwarves and minis, both planted in part shade and even full shade.
I have a strip alongside my path in my southern side yard and I am considering placing a number of dwarf conifers near the path but still limited to perhaps 3-4' hours of sun at peak summer and a few hours plus dappled sun the rest of the year.
I realize some shade loving conifers would be fine, tsuga, taxus, chamaecyparis and a few others but the types I am considering are:
Cedrus atlantica(Horstmanns, Silberspitz, etc)
Cedrus deodara(Girards weeping, Albospica, Shalimar, etc.)
Picea abies(Hillside upright, Kellermans blue cameo, etc)
Picea pungens dwarves and intermediates(thume, Iseli foxtail, etc)
Picea omorika dwarves(nana, tremonia, etc)
Pinus densiflora(Burkes Red Varigated, Cesarini's Varigated)
Pinus parviflora(Ogon Janome)
Any suggestions and experiences would be most welcomed.
Will |
Follow-Up Postings:
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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| Hi Will...I have a Picea pungens (one of the globose cultivars on an 18'' standard) in full shade where it is doing terrific. My guess is that the Pinus cultivars would have better color in the sun... Barbara |
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade?
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Oops...and Picea abies doing great in the shade too.
Not sure if the blue abies will keep their color in the shade, as my blue glauca cultivars do need some sun for color.
The blue pungens retain their color perfectly here in shade. |
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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| Hi Will, Conifers which are yellow or variegated must at least standing in partly sun to show their nice colour.
If these are standing in complete shade the colour wil be very disappointing.
I recomment that you don't plant the following conifers in complete shade:
-Cedrus atl. 'Silberspitze'
-Cedrus deo. 'Albospica'
-Pinus dens. 'Burke's Red Variegated'
-Pinus dens. 'Cesarini's Variegated'
-Pinus parv. 'Ogon-janome'
Conifers which are blue and green all year could be planted in full shade, but the still needs a full ligtintensity. |
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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| It is my experience in dealing with most of the above mentioned conifers is yes they will grow in shade/part shade. As these are sun loving conifers they are best grown in full sun. If grown in shade over the years they they will have that thinned out look and grow leggy. I have two Picea pungens 'Glauca Procumbens' One in shade the other in full sun. The sun version 3 times as big, has better color and generally and over all healthier plant. My advice is don't do it if they are to stay in the same shade environment permanently. Dave |
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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| Hi Will, We grow quite a few of our conifers in partial shade but we try to keep it to those you mention as more shade tolerant (tsuga, etc.) Thujopsis, Cephalotaxus, and Taxodium are a few others that seem to tolerate some shade. Picea abies so far appear fine in partial shade. I would especially avoid any pines in a shadey location -- we planted a few in partial shade and they have very quickly become open and leggy. I have a very short learning curve and only about 3-4 years experience with our conifers. As others have said, most of the plants will probably survive, but not thrive, in the shade. Kim |
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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| this is how i think about it .... a happy plant has an annual growth rate .... lets use 12 inches as an example .... when grown in full sun .... the problem is that the term SHADE is hard to define ... we cant lump all shade under one umbrella ... there is light shade.. and at the other end of the spectrum is what i call a dark cave ... both are technically SHADE ... in a given bed.. the shade at the back.. can be significantly different than the shade at the front .. so we really have to avoid using the term SHADE as meaning.. really anything other than lack of full sun ... sooooo .... if 12 inches in full sun ... it might only do 3 inches in full shade ... and then get sparse and leggy .. and probably start leaning to the sun.. these conifers really know how to cope.. its usually us that screw it all up ... lol ... in the SHADE defined somewhere between the dark cave and full sun .... you might get 9 inches... straight as an arrow upwards [no lean] ... and full in shape ... i would call that perfect placement .... how any given plant .. will do in the location you are thinking about .... is really only answered by putting the thing there .... and giving it a go ... and charting the annual growth rate .... and resulting growth patterns ... and seeing how it all works out .... we can add our observations.. and suggestions.. along with research on shade resilient varieties ... but its all a throw of the dice when it comes to particular, specific info for your garden ... i have pungens royal knight and globosa in full dark shade.. both growing about 3 inches per year.. nice color ... maybe even bluer than the norm.. since no sun to melt off the wax ... the dataBase on globosa indicates 1 to 6 inches per year .... daves picture at the dB seems to indicate 2 to 3 .. which seems about consistent with mine in full shade ... lol .. the pic of royal knight looks nothing like my plant.. go figure on that .... mine grows about 3 to 5 inches per year... and is not an upright .... but the dB says 12 inches... carp .. whether that means the shade is affecting growth rate.. or whether i bought a mislabeled plant.. who knows ... that was a waste of an example .... the moral of the story ... you can NOT define your light level.. aka the amount of shade ... so just plant them where you want.. and move them later if they are weak or unpleasing ... but try to avoid having to move big stuff later ... spend a few more minutes figuring out which ones you will not be able or want to move in 5 years ... and make sure those are placed where they can stay ... ken |
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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| Yeah, basically the strip I am considering is shaded fairly moderately by the large established trees to the south. The border between houses is a mix of large leafy trees like Madrones and another deciduous tree and a handful of Douglas firs, 30ft-100ft in height. During the prime growing months(May/June/July), this entire area I am considering planting conifers will get direct sunlight for anywhere from 3-4 hours to perhaps as much as 6-8. During the other 'growing months', March, April, August and September, these locations will get maybe an hour or two tops of direct sunlight and then heavy dappled shade through out the rest of the daylight hours. Based on the feedback I think I am going to plant mostly tsuga, taxus, chamaecyparis in this bed and then occasionally mix in a few picea pungens dwarf varieties. I'll post images of this whole area in the upcoming weeks, it's the 'other end' of my path, this end being two small retaining walls to level out the slope some. Thanks again for all the advice. |
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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| 8 hours is considered FULL sun ... whether or not there is shade some part of the day .... learned that in my rose growing days .... the issue then becomes... the intensity of the sun ... dawn and dusk full sun is not equivalent to noon sun ... so 4 hours at dawn.. and 4 hours at dusk.. might be a problem for SOME plants ... which require intense levels of light ... i realize you may know most of this... but i use it to refresh my memory .. and to entertain any newbies who are lurking.. and i know you are out there ... we could then add FILTERED light to complicate the whole mess ... lol ... but technically.. that brings us back to intensity ... in the olden days .... 5 years ago .. lol .. you actually had pix peeps who carried photo meters to measure the light intensity ... except for the true photo expert.. that is probably a thing of the past with digital this and that .... with said tool ... you could probably actually define the light level in your SHADE .... and then try to find research indicating how many units of what level of light.. is satisfactory for your plants.. the greenhouse peeps probably have some of this science worked out ... this would be why there are shade clothes that vary from 25 to 60% shade ... depending what you are growing in the man made shade ... ken PS: all of which leaves will standing there scratching his head.. really no further ahead than he was prior to posting... thinking.. aw heck.. i am just going to plant the thing here.. and worry about it in a few years ... lol |
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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| 3 hours is considered to be "sun" plants. Add in dappled light and you have sun growing conditions moreso than shade conditions. Any conifer needing sun requirements will thrive just fine for you. Dax |
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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| If it's dwarves and minis you're talking about, won't they get leggier in shade? And doesn't that sort of miss the point of growing them? I have almost no "full sun" on my property and so everything grows in some degree of shade; I definitely understand the conundrum of wanting to plant things in less than their ideal conditions. Things do OK; just fine in most cases. But you have to make some compromises in some cases; you do get foliage die-out and legginess. What I do is give the choice spots to the choice plants, and accept some reduced performance in the others. By the way, when talking shade, always think of Microbiota! KarinL |
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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| "By the way, when talking shade, always think of Microbiota!" Yes...especially in the winter Dave |
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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| What is this Microbiota yoiu speak of? Also, I am getting pretty comfortable with my choices now for the part shade bed. I'll post images eventually, but I am going to try to mix in about a dozen of the following plants: Abies nordmanniana 'Golden Spreader'
Cedrus deodara 'Cream Puff'
Picea orientalis 'Silver Seedling'
Picea omorika 'Aurea' - Already planted for the most light
Picea pungens 'Wendy'
Picea pungens 'Iseli Foxtail'
Picea pungens 'Thume'
Picea pungens 'Glauca Pendula'
Pinus parviflora 'Tani Mano Uki'
Tsuga canadenis 'Vermulen Wintergold' x2
Tsuga canadenis 'Bergmans Snowflake'
Tsuga canadenis 'Pendula'
Tsuga canadenis 'Woodrose'
Tsuga canadenis 'Everitt' Golden'
Tsuga met.? 'Thorrsons Weeper' Japanese maples: Acer Palmatum 'Katsura'
Acer Palmatum 'Sazanami'
Acer Palmatum 'Shaina'
Acer Shirasawanum 'Auream'
Acer Shirasawanum 'Palmatifolium' Suggestions for some others would be quite welcomed. Will |
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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| "What is this Microbiota you speak of?" Dave Microbiota decussata. Although it is tolerant of partial shade, it looks at its best in full sun. Winter time shade a must to prevent sun from drying out foliage as it is shallow rooted and can't take up moisture when ground frozen.
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RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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| Will, A.p. 'Shaina' will not do well in shade - quickly turning almost completely green. Try A.p. 'Cindy' instead (Topiary Gardens). 'Cindy' will stay red all season long in almost total shade. Mine got 2 hours of sun per day and stayed red all year long. A.s. 'Aureum' is stunning in the shade, as its luminous green-gold leaves give the effect of being lit up from within. Mine seems to be doing well here in TN on the north side of the house, with perhaps a hour of sun per day. Don't give A.s. 'Aureum' ANY fertilizer - ever! Super sensitive to it. Use compost or worm castings around the roots in springtime. Also, keep it slightly (that's SLIGHTLY) drier than the palmatums. You're getting some of the same conifers I'm ordering from Coenosium. We'll have to compare notes on how these plants do in our respective climates, especially 'Golden Spreader' and 'Silver Seedling'. Mine have a good chance of being fried to a crisp! One must try, as you know. OCD gets expensive!! LOL! Regards, K4 |
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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| I agree on Shaina, it is one of the few A.P.'s that tolerates full sun well, and there are many that really need that shade. Any of the verigates/reticulated leaf types or corralinums would really appreciate those conditions. Stick a Ukigumo in there and it will be a beacon! I have a P.P. Ogon Janome in full sun and it is BRIGHT all year round, just a little burn on late new growth. I was going to move it to a shader spot, but after seeing dull ones in those conditions I decided to leave it there. So far so good. |
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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I think you would great enjoy a picea abies 'kellerman's blue cameo' I have mine on a mound that is shaded by a very large pine and it is a plant that is always commented on. I would also recommend a Chamaecyparis obtusa ‘Gold Fern’ Great colors and can take as much shade as you need.
I have also had very good luck with Cedrus deodara ‘Feeling Blue’ in the shade. It becomes a very nice grren instead of blue, but still really nice.
Steven |
RE: Dwarf conifers in part/full shade
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| Thanks for all of the suggestions! I will surely consider 'Gold Fern' I have a small cultivar and it's a lovely looking thing. I may pass on Ogon Janome in there as it will tend to get large and also may not be very bright. I was told that a few 'varigated' pines actually color better in shade, Pinus mugo 'Marand' being one I have planted in there already. I have a handful of maples already planted in the 'deeper shade'. I think they are: Ukigumo
Aka Shigitatsu Sawa
Higasayama
Oridono Nishiki
Ueno Yama Most are varigates and had outstanding colors in this shade. I appreciate all of the tips and experience being offered here, it will save me many hours(and perhaps trees) transplanting things into the future. |
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