Return to the Conifers Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

Posted by nikkie_in_toronto Chstn9a (My Page) on
Fri, Feb 21, 14 at 16:29

I will try to post a picture a bit later but, my cupressus appears to have some severe browning after 18F this past January. Some of the strongest growth is still blue but a good portion, especially the side facing the sun is brown. Stem tissue is green. Is there a possibility it will recover without looking terribly deformed, or is it a lost cause? I'm not familiar with the plant and when I called the nursery from where it came, they knew very little as well aside from the fact that they had all been killed by 8F in Oregon.


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Sat, Feb 22, 14 at 4:03

The classic, long-cultivated form is a tender fixed juvenile with thin limpid sprays. Move yours to the correct sheltered environment receiving no hard frost and see what it does.


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

Mine came from Specialty Ornamentals and we had 16F and so far no browning, it would think it would have by now. They list it as zone 7 to 9. I emailed Flo to find out the info on their selection. Buchholz says zone 8.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cupressus cashmeriana Specialty Ornamentals

This post was edited by fairfield8619 on Sat, Feb 22, 14 at 12:47


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

here is a picture, you can see the browning


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

you know i know nothing of this plant ...

but it looks like interior browning ...

how long has it been in this spot.... can you attribute any of interior browning to transplant shock... is it fully established???

is that wall south facing.. because the damage SEEMS to end at the top of the wall????

i dont think you will get a specific answer ... you will just have to see how it all works out this spring ...

i have had many things.. with what seems like superficial damage.. only to be hit repeatedly by late hard frost or actual freeze.. and then die..

it seems.. one insult is survivable.. but repeated insults can be terminal ...

who knows ...

good luck.. keep us posted...

Charleston now???

ken


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

My small specimen died with our January temps of 10, 11,12 degrees. It was planted last year and probably wasn't established yet.


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Sun, Feb 23, 14 at 11:41

If it was the old, juvenile grafted clone such as is shown in above photo that was probably too cold for it anyway, newly planted or otherwise. Past experience going back a long time indicates this is at best a Zone 9 item. Here on the west coast the big ones with some decades behind them are all well down into California.


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

Looks like it's going to pull thru but you never know until a month into true summer weather, or, when spring rolls around.

Dax


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

Heard back from Flo, the biggest one she has is a little sheltered and is fine after 6F. Two others out in the open are a bit burned. They came from JC Raulston Arboretum.

Ian at the Dersert Northwest sells a weeping clone he calls Cupressus tortulosa that was received as C. pseudohimalaica. He lists it as 5-10F. It is not quite as fine as mine from SO. Mine is not grafted but the Cupressus lusitanica 'Glauca Pendula' also from SO is grafted.

Here is a link that might be useful: Desert Northwest

This post was edited by fairfield8619 on Sun, Feb 23, 14 at 12:51


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

It does appear that it is the interior that is most damaged on this plant, but it didn't show any sign of stress or discoloration until the cold episode, which is why I assumed it was cold damage over transplant shock. It rarely gets below 25F downtown, and I thought it was safe tucked up against the wall and the neighbors garage. This is its second winter. I don't mind giving it time to recover, but if its going to look unsightly there are other plants that I would like to try in the limited space I have. I guess time will tell. I had assumed, from speaking with various folks that it would be hardier. It was very beautiful and a good grower last year.


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

I have three here and they have seen -9c/16 f
some clones might be more hardy than others.


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

"here is a picture, you can see the browning"

That pic was surely not taken in Toronto??

It looks etiolated to me, suffering from too much shade. Like all Cupressus it does best in full sun.

Resin


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

as to transplant...

my thought was that a fully established plant MIGHT be more able to recover ...

where as one that is still trying to get established... might have trouble doing so ...

one MIGHT call such damage on a non-established plant... to be the second insult ..

and at that size. ... on only the second year.. i doubt it is fully established ...

frankly ... i dont hold out much hope.. but one can only see how it develops in spring ... maybe it will surprise us all ...

except resin... who wants to know where you are ... or more precisely.. where the plant is ... because apparently.. your heart will always be in toronto ... or at least your GW name ...

ken

ps: cold alone is secondary ... to knowing how long it was so cold .... any idea how fast temps recovered????


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

Apologies for the location and name confusion. This plant is in Charleston, South Carolina. The photo was taken just before sunset. It is in a courtyard garden along the south side of the pink wall. It currently receives about 6 hours of sun from about 10 am to 4pm (later in summer). There were two consecutive nights of a hard freeze, one of 18F and one around 21F. The daytime high did not get above freezing. You can see to the north (other side of the wall) the established syagrus romanzoffina are totally browned from the cold and the fronds have collapsed, which could be casting some shade on the cupressus currently. The damage showed up within one week of the cold snap. I would purchase another one but the nursery where It originated had all of theirs killed by cold in that they were exposed to 8F on the west coast. Ive read that there is some confusion in regards to the taxonomy of the plant so perhaps this is just an incredibly tender one and I need to start over, but I have NO idea where to purchase another one or a hardier version. The stem tissue is still green so maybe I should give it a few months?


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

Like I said, Specialty Ornamentals sells one rated to z7. Mine seems to be ok and it is small. We will see when it warms up. We had 48 hours below freezing.


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

FWIW (and I'm not sure that's very much, as there are obviously various clones out there that vary in hardiness)...I had the clone Cistus claimed was hardy to 5F and said originated at NCSU. IIRC it's the same as the one called 'pseudohimalaica'. It died pretty quickly in mild winter, certainly above 10F. I like Cistus a lot but they have a history of too-optimistic catalog writeups. Too optimistic about hardiness, that is. OTOH I can partly forgive them because they have had some breakthrough plants, both in hardiness and rareness. Years ago I bought a supposedly hardy Pittosporum tobira from them. It wasn't. I gently complained about that to Sean when I visited Cistus in the winter of 2010-2011. He sorta acted like "oh I see what the problem is, follow me into the secret conservatory over here" and gave me another Pittosporum. But it had the same label as the other: 'Washington Park'. Strangely, a year later I seem to recall they listed 'Tall n Tough', which other people have called the hardiest. In any case, the replacement plant has been *amazingly* hardy for a Pittosprorum tobira after this winter. In fact it's far less damaged than the Pittosporum parvilimbum, which was once considered much hardier than any P. tobira. I wish I knew whether it was 'Tall n Tough', or 'Washington Park', or something else, but I'm just happy to have a very hardy Pittosporum. It's hardier than the Korean clone that Woodlanders sold in the 1990s.

Also, his clone of Phormium tenax from Lake Te Anau has also been amazingly hardy this winter. Although injured, it didn't die completely to the ground. It also grows pretty vigorously in summer here, which is more than I can say for most phormiums.


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

Cupressus tortulosa is a little hardier than Cupressus cashmeriana, but both species would survive -7°C without problem. Frost damage would hit the last shoots turning them into a dull colour, and not the inside ones (browning likely due to unbalanced sizes of the roots versus foliage).


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

OK. First mystery is what Cistus was actually selling in 2007 that came from NCSU. Since it was listed as Cupressus himalaica, I can only assume it was this:
http://www.ncsu.edu/jcraulstonarboretum/horticulture/current_plantings/current_plantings_details.php?serialnumber=0004430

Because that would have been the only Indian/SW Asian Cupressus that NCSU had in their collection at the time. I don't know the fate of that plant. Per this thread: http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/conif/msg041028541847.html what I had definitely resembled C. pseudohimalaica: semi-weeping even apparent when small, and blueish green though not as blue as certain conifers

(FWIW, they were also selling a "hardy at NCSU" Podocarpus falcatus; likewise it died for me a relatively high temperature, and likewise I do not find a listing with that exact name at http://www.ncsu.edu/jcraulstonarboretum/horticulture/current_plantings/current_plantings_advanced_search.html)

However a source informs that a "real" Cupressus cashmeriana planted at NCSU was thoroughly top killed this winter, when the temperature went to 8F. It was only planted in 2010. The curators will leave it until summer to see if any regrowth occurs. Doesn't look very promising to me. Here is the picture:
photo cypress dead
image hosting 30 mb

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Sat, Mar 1, 14 at 6:56


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

BTW I just realized I'm discounting the possibility that NCSU once had something that they were calling C. "himalaica", and it either got renamed, or died and is no longer in the planting database. In any case, this is what I ordered and it doesn't appear to be a valid name.
Also double checked my spreadsheet of climate records - added 3F minima for this year (uuuggghhh) - and saw that the winter of 2007-2008 had a low of 13F. I planted it that year and it died that year, so as a small plant, whatever it was wasn't very hardy.
(though of course 13F here is much worse than 13F down south is, usually)

" Frost damage would hit the last shoots turning them into a dull colour, and not the inside ones (browning likely due to unbalanced sizes of the roots versus foliage)."

I agree the pattern of damage on Nikkie's plant is odd looking. Has any more foliage browned, and are the green bits still turgid? I would say it is more likely than not to make a recovery, assuming there isn't something disastrous like the 2007 late spring freeze, which killed hundreds of rare warm temperate Asian plants across the south.
(The ones that can't resist late spring freezes - that's why they're rare ;-) )

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Sat, Mar 1, 14 at 3:01


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

This is what mine looks like now, hope it is ok. It's hard to tell in the pic but the tips are lighter green like it is going to commence growing. I wont be happy until we have steady temps.
 photo DSCF4446.jpg
 photo DSCF4438.jpg


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

I had assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that it was winter damage due to the fact that we had such a bad winter and there is a lot of damage to plants throughout the South. Ive had issues with the nursery, where the plant came from, in the past but this is the plats second winter so I thought I would be past any transplant shock or root disturbance issue. It had very impressive growth last year. The browning is not any worse and the tips of the blue portion are showing signs that its going to start growing. I certainly hope that it fills out a bit because it was not easy to find and I really thought it was one of the most attractive conifers I had seen in the South


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

Good luck. Keep us updated.


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Sun, Mar 2, 14 at 18:04

If you look at the Cistus descriptions when a minimum temperature is mentioned as a basis for zone designation the common mistake is made of lining up the plant's killing or damage point with the average minimum temperature range for a zone. So a plant that burns up at 5F is a Zone 7 plant and so on. The pre-Burpee Heronswood catalogs had the same mistake, with Dan apparently believing the nursery and garden site was in Zone 7 - because it sometimes got below 10F there (as it does at my place, across Puget Sound from Heronswood). How you read such listings is to add a zone to the one they give (they say 7, you read 8), then you will be getting a much better idea of how likely the plant being considered is to last in your location.

Awareness and motivations of specific individuals aside the fact is plant vendors in general tend to gild the lily, with hardiness being overstated and size potential being understated. When reading commercially generated descriptions, in addition to adding a zone when not already knowing otherwise doubling the heights given (for woody plants) is probably also going to produce a more true picture much of the time.


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

so I thought I would be past any transplant shock or root disturbance issue.

What was the size of the rootball when you purchased it? Usually the roots are not balancing the foliage size. They were cut for transplantation or restricted inside a container. On young plants roots should be more developed than the foliage, which is very seldom the case in nurseries. And it can take more than one year for them to catch up. Also was the soil frozen? A good protection from freezing will do no harm.


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

The plant came in a #15 box and was very root bound, but I did break up the roots before planting as I usually do. I guess, at this point, Its just wait and see. I dont think its getting worse. The dead foliage in the interior is falling out now and there does appear to be some light green tips on live foliage. It may never look as good as it did when I first planted it but I will give it time.


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Tue, Mar 4, 14 at 12:35

If the location suits it the outside will become denser and tend to obscure the bare inner zone over time.


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

Update - although unfortunately I am only updating the subthread in this forum, not the status of Nikkie's plant!
I saw the plant I posted a link to above, at NCSU. It was not damaged by cold, but was completely unremarkable looking and would not be described as weeping at all. It also did _not_ resemble what I got from Cistus years ago as "coming from NCSU". I can only assume that plant, whatever it was, is no longer in the garden and therefore no longer in the online inventory system. I wonder if this applies:

Posted by nothotsuga (My Page) on
Tue, Apr 13, 10 at 16:04


clip this post • email post • flag post

"Darjeelingensis" developing green adult foliage liable to be C. himalaica.

Those are names brought by Silba and they are from cultivated Cupressus lusitanica in India.

The photo from Forestfarm is what is to be expected for Cupressus lusitanica foliage.

here is a picture of what is currently at NCSU as "Cupressus darjeelingensis". Does it resemble C. lusitanica? (show image or save to enlarge beyond the crushing gardenweb borders)


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

To clarify the above quotation, nothotsuga was responding to someone who had said ""Darjeelingensis" developing green adult foliage liable to be C. himalaica."

In conclusion about these nomenclature issues, is it safe to assume that all Himalayan/SW Asian Cupressus _are_ weepy, and therefore anything not weeping, and/or resembling Cupressus lusitanica...is in fact C. lusitanica or another imposter? And that these Himalayan plants are either very tender z9 (Nikkie's) or slightly hardier (see other post)...but not hardy enough to withstand 7F undamaged as the plant I have in the post above?

FWIW people have said Cupressus X ovensii should be less hardy than C. X leylandii. However after this cold winter, my C. X ovensii looks just as good as my leylands, if not better. (and the C. X ovensii has also been completely disease free) So I don't think C. lusitanica makes X ovensii hugely more tender than C. macrocarpa of leylandii. Both are from rather mild areas and thus the Nootka parent must contribute most of the hardiness.
One more thing: I just read the wiki article about Leyland cypress. I never realized the cross had been made in both ways, with the Cupressus macrocarpa as either seed parent ('Leighton Green') or pollen parent ('Haggerston Grey'). Which is the common clone in the US?

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Thu, Mar 13, 14 at 20:49


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

here is a picture of what is currently at NCSU as "Cupressus darjeelingensis". Does it resemble C. lusitanica?

It is a kind of "lusitanica" grown from seeds collected in India in cultivated orchads. These seeds are usually sold under the label Cupressus cashmeriana. Only a few specimens have these flat sprays (but the leaves are monomorphic). All others from the same seed lot are more typical lusitanica. It is not excluded that it is a hybrid. It is not an himalayan cypress.


 o
RE: Cupressus cashmeriana winter damage question

It may never look as good as it did when I first planted it but I will give it time.

==>> oh ye of little faith ... lol

of course it can .. if it survives...

its just a matter of how many years it takes .... lol ...

can you give it 3 to 5 years ???

or will you get to the point of putting it out of YOUR misery ...

when it grows.. enough that those damaged needles.. would have naturally fallen off ...

then you will no longer see the impact.. and it will have covered it all up ...

would you like me to send you the application for the WEIRDER THE BETTER CLUB???'

you dont really think i have all these weirdos.. because i want to.. do you ???? ... many were from winter damage ...

ken


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Conifers Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here