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Grafting Conifers & Deciduous

Posted by gardener365 IL 5b (My Page) on
Mon, Feb 3, 14 at 18:14

I'm finished making videos forever. This one pretty much covers it all. I made a whole new series with better picture quality and more information.

Conifer Grafting

Deciduous grafting:

Saddle Graft

Veneer Graft

Waxing the Scions & Understock

Oak wood is strong as steel.... be very careful if you attempt a saddle graft with oaks. Make damn sure your knife is razor sharp. I send my knife to a guy in Chicago that uses Japanese water stones. It's a hell of a deal because he sends a voucher and sharpens it for free the second time. You always pay postage to and from.

The Art of Sharp: Professional Mail in Knife Sharpening

I haven't been around because pecans kidnapped me. For the last four months that's all I've been able to think about (and heartnuts and Persian walnuts & hickories & persimmons and pawpaws). Grafting conifers has rebooted my brain where I had left off!

Dax


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Grafting Conifers & Deciduous

Dax, your a natural teacher.

Rob


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RE: Grafting Conifers & Deciduous

I really enjoyed the videos and commentary. Thanks man!

Jeff


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RE: Grafting Conifers & Deciduous

Fantastic timing Dax! Been looking up grafting on YouTube last night and here you are with the masterclass.

Still a daunting prospect but your step through makes the how-to very clear.

Thanks!


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RE: Grafting Conifers & Deciduous

Rob, that's a real nice compliment.

Jeff, I enjoyed making them! ;-)

Severnside, keep your k-nife clean!

Dax


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RE: Grafting Conifers & Deciduous

Dax,

I certainly will, and I'll get a cork board. I've got bags just like yours that were bought as sandwich bags from Walmart.

Here's a seat-of-the-pants mugo graft I had to bumrush when I grabbed a scion from next to a security hut back in Nov 18th.Should I feel good at it's 11 week appearance or simply disregard everything until it does or doesn't break bud? Newb's desperate hope lol.

 photo P1100819WK11.jpg


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healthy needles & buds = good. let it wake up slowly. slow is better than quick.

grafts and growing seeds in a heated greenhouse still flow with the hours of light/sun they are exposed to: natural or artificial. With natural sunlight, as spring approaches and the days are becoming longer, the grafts and seeds will know that, and, they will respond to it.

Dax


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Thanks Dax, I'll dare to hope yet ;)


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Thank you for sharing Dax, a true teacher
L+M S


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Thank you.

Dax


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Thanks Dax... i was pissed that I missed the grafting class at Arnold Arboretum last weekend...then I saw this post! Great timing and well done


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Good stuff Dax - many thanks!


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That was really well done! Kudos Dax!


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It's the pants that make him so good. :P

Get back on Facebook, Dax. Planet Conifer group has tons of activity and pictures these days.


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I'm not intimidated by any size scion. I can graft anything...

You're right John, you gotta have flexible clothes. I'm doing gymnastics in that greenhouse. There's no other way to do the job right.

I grafted a Pinus sylvestris cultivar today called 'Heartland Memory' that would be considered a large scion for that particular cultivar. The stem piece I had to work with was 1/8" / about 4mm. When I cut the tip off I looked at the thickness of the cambium layer and it was honestly about 1/3 of a mm. I did my two cuts and had green on both sides of the scion and my cut was easily 1/2" long. I stood that scion up perpendicular on my cork board and shaved it straight down. So you see, you always are evaluating the best or only way to make your cuts.

I really enjoy grafting guys.

Best regards,

Dax
No facebook. You couldn't pay me to get back on there.


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RE: Grafting Conifers & Deciduous

1) Sometimes I don't get the cut done right in one go. I know the rule is once and once only but there may be a part that is shallower. How much damage is caused by taking another thin sliver off?

2) When wrapping, the scion can slip and again the rule is once on it's on. How much damage is done if you have to reapply or simply move back into alignment from a drift?

3) Can you bind too tight?

4) In the picture of Clement's that I've linked to it shows that the foot of the scion is not really incorporated into the rootstock like some others he has shown and has callused onto just a small flap. On a couple of mine the scion at the bottom sat just on the thickness of the rootstock cut as I was worried about making my cuts too deep and didn't consider at the time the importance of making a flap. How important is this part of the scion in the vascular exchange, or is all that ocurring at the face of the graft and the base will heal closed. Phew, hope I made that clear...

Here is a link that might be useful: Graft

This post was edited by severnside on Wed, Feb 5, 14 at 21:57


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Here I've linked another of Clement's pictures showing what most of my bought plants have, an incorporation of the scion base into the tissue. Aesthetics or critical?

Here is a link that might be useful: Graft 2


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Your videos are always so well done that even a complete novice could do grafts from watching them. Great job!
Cher


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Hey severnside:

1) no, you can keep cutting. Get it done right or if you screwed a scion up cutting more away, toss it and move on.

2) don't ever "guess" that a scion is lined up. If it slips, remove it and start again. No tissue damage occurs from resitting the scion. Sometimes it may take 3 or 4 tries or more to get it lined up.

3) If you're forcing the fit so tightly, then the cuts weren't matchable from the beginning. And I know this happens due to the nature of the understocks. Some have curved/bent trunks and so do some scions and other scions are so rigid that they won't bend/conform to the understock. I don't know what too tight is but I rely on common sense where I think, gosh that's too tight and I'm likely damaging the cambium in the process. It's a feel you will learn.

4) Yes I know exactly how Clement grafts with the short flap. If the scion is held in place with your thumb and index finger up against the backside of the seedling-understock and you are able to wrap the bud strip w/o shifting the scion... there really isn't any need to have cuts on both sides of your scion. The wedge cut that Clement and I do is necessary, however.

More cambium connection is a good thing though. Take it as it is. I don't have all the answers

Everyone has their way, that works, and you'll find yours.

Thanks: Cher, Al, Sluice, SC.

Dax


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Thanks Dax.

I got a bit freaked out by a vid on youtube of a bonsai grafting demo where it was all about once and once only, very strict! If I can resit and recut (without wittling) that's a big pass on my clumsiness until finess is developed. The tightness yep is where the curve of side branches is pulling some part of the scion away, guess that will have to be a post-mortem consideration in that event.

I guess I've been trying to keep it as minimal as possible as more cuts mean more graft to take, over time I'll develop the confidence (out of necessity most likely) to go for more complete wedge grafts. They are much easier to wrap.


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Re: The tightness yep is where the curve of side branches is pulling some part of the scion away, guess that will have to be a post-mortem consideration in that event.

Don't ever allow it to be a post-mortem event. If you aren't 100% sure of your work it's best to remove the scion, then select another understock and put it together right. The other understock with the curved features, put a bud strip over the wound or... parafilm tape and reuse it later for another scion. (re-graft it on a new spot)

Best,

Dax


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Here's the branch with the leader and five side branches - you can see the curvature of them.

 photo P1100790.jpg photo P1100791.jpg

Ideally if I had ample understock I would have been more circumspect but I had to grab some sylvestris and nigra young plants who's leaders corresponded in caliper. The whole operation will be different with a set time to collect scions and understock pre-bought and ready - next time. Btw aesthetic considerations are nil as with these I simply want mother stock to propogate on.

There isn't anyone like you in the UK Dax, else I would certainly have sent you the branch. Why not bet on a sure thing ;)


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That tip at the base is probably long enough to graft the whole thing if you had the understock for it... which you don't, unfortunately. Besides, being new to grafting you might want to chop that into a few real good pieces.. for you.

The curvature is nothing. Straighten it with your hands if you want to graft the whole thing. It's flexible. Otherwise, look at it from the top and and find where the straightest place intersects the beginning of the curve and... chop it! beneath that an inch or so.

Dax

This post was edited by gardener365 on Thu, Feb 6, 14 at 19:10


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Hi Dax,

finally got home and had the chance to view your vids. Good stuff!

Where did you find your cork board and parafilm? They both seem handy tools to add to the mix.

~Dave


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I chopped it into six scions Dax. I get a 1/6 chance then which is definitely more favourable odds ;)


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Pinus parviflora graft 5 years photo Grafts026_zps41fd3967.jpg
Graft of 5 years Pinus parviflora cv.
Pinus graft photo Grafts025_zpsf5d05b36.jpg
The same

Abies cv graft photo Grafts027_zps4b562f67.jpg
Abies cv graft of spring 2013

Pinus sylvestris cv, grafted onto uncinata photo Grafts023_zps67fc7c6b.jpg
Pinus sylvestris cv grafted onto uncinata

Pinus strobus cv 2 years photo Grafts021_zps3495571e.jpg
Pinus strobus cv 2 years graft

I like the grafting, but I lke to make a good and nice grafts.Here some exemples.
Clement


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Perfect grafts Clement, you have to almost search for the union line in some. That is as good as they get, healthy and invisible. I doubt I will ever achieve anything close to yours.


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Hi Dave,

I actually replied to your question weeks and weeks ago, and now see it’s not here. That pisses me off.

That corkboard is the brand: Bambu - and the parafilm tape can be purchased just about anywhere on the net. I happened to buy mine from Midwest Vineyard Suppy. They’re based in Illinois, and at that time, I was looking for quick shipping. I bought about three rolls of the inch wide about six years ago and I'm now just starting on the third.

Until I got a new computer I had the link of where I purchased the corkboard but I lost that link. I can tell ya there are three sizes and the one to get is the medium.

Dax


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Dax,your timing is great with these last two vids!

Rob


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Stay hungry my friend.

Dax


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Great videos, Dax!

Just wondering, what do you use for fungicide/insecticide in the greenhouse? I know it's important to select something that won't be detrimental to the sensitive fresh grafts.

Alex


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RE: Grafting Conifers & Deciduous

Thank you.

Use Zerotol and a safe insecticide such as Hort Oil or Pyrethrin or neem.

Dax

This post was edited by gardener365 on Sun, Mar 2, 14 at 17:50


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Dax, I Googled your cutting board and remembered my wife gave me one for the car. Alex,you beat me to the fungicide/insecticide question. Got my answer though! thanks Dax

Rob


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Thank you, Dax!

Wonderful video about grafting.... Finally you encouraged me to try too!:)

Ireena


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That's right Ireena, you go girl! :-)

Dax


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Hey Dax. You changed the insecticide/fungicide post? I thought you listed a copper compound.

Patrick


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Awesome videos, man. Will use them for anybody interested in grafting.

Check out how fast this guy works! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCaRqvoL6Lc


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I screwed up Patrick. I wrote (2) fungicides instead of (1) fungicide and (1) insecticide. Regarding the use of liquid copper in a greenhouse, you may certainly use it for greenhouse applications as the label states so.

So just to be clear once again... I told folks to spray (2) fungicides when (1 of "2") was to be an insecticide.

Dax


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Dax,

I've put a humidity bag on my new graft and wanted to ask how much sun I can allow on it. Does it need to be in shade or can I allow bright but not too hot sun on it for a while?

 photo P1170347.jpg


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I'd probably loosen that bag beneath so water can have somewhere to exit and there's definitely no need for sun. Up against a north side of a building for indirect light is the ideal.

Dax


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Thanks Dax!

That's good then, I have it by a north garage wall exactly as you say. Yes in your vid you use top and bottom bag opening. This is a light bag from an electrical item packaging so as you say I'll loosen the bottom to allow moisture exit the reverse of yours but same result.

I'll always post questions in this masterclass thread, thanks for looking out.

Sev


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Hello severnside,

have you propagated this nice looking pine now in the summer?

i ask because my grafting book says "Conifer grafting only in winter from December till the End of March".
But to be honest, i 've always asked myself, why not to give conifer propagating in the summer a try, when everything schould grow together right quickly...

If you have propagated shortly, i will surely give a run to a nearby cattle pasture, where a nice globose and narrow form of P. abies is standing and is only waiting for me :)...

Andreas


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PS: Not bitten by the cattle, it's around 5 m high and 4 m wide and at least 30 years old.


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Hello Andreas

The graft is now three weeks old and looks very healthy. When I made the cuts there was so much sticky sap that it was like gluing them together. Of course it could still go wrong but having the whole of august and then september to heal before dormancy approaches in october might be enough. It'll be then how it takes dormancy and survival to spring that will be the big test. It is getting a little late according to Jarpe's August 1st deadline so you may be better off in Jan/Feb but if it's a big tree with lots of scion material give it a go! If the scion and rootstock are still flexible and green then in theory they should bond quite rapidly. You can always try again in spring if not.

I've linked Jarpe's original thread that inspired me below.

Good luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: Jarpe's Late Summer Grafting


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Hello!

Thank you very much, this is really great news: Grafting conifers in summer, jipie :D! No more waiting for december to come, no more potential scions, who can be bitten by game in the long time till winter or be found by another one, or can be cut down or so.
Juhu, thank you, i' ll absolutely give it a go, maybe with the little support of a greenhouse!

Thanks even for the link and your explanaitons :)!

Good luck for you to get the graft over the winter!


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I'm glad you have this new window of grafting opportunity like me now Andreas, good luck! Keep us updated on your results.


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  • Posted by SC77 6b (My Page) on
    Thu, Oct 16, 14 at 10:24

@Dax, I have probably watched your grafting video 20x in preparation for this years grafting season. I have all of my understock potted and ready to go. I decided to start with Pinus strobus, because they are virtually indestructible in New England and I was able to hand select wild growing understock, since it is so abundant in the area. I plan to graft scions from a local Pinus strobus 'Pendula' and from the broom I found last winter.

Thanks for spending the time creating this tutorial for noobs like me. Also, I searched high and low for those thin/large sandwich bags at dollars stores and other locations, then went to Walmart and they have them! Hope that saves others some time. Walmart also has "cork tiles" for a couple bucks, they are thin, so I just glued it to a larger cutting board. Amazon has a nice selection of grafting knifes, I picked on up for about $15 bucks.

Any recommendations on lighting? I was thinking about buying a 400w light, since I will be doing this in my garage, not a greenhouse.

I know there is some new blood on this site, so hopefully this bump up will allows others to see this valuable post.

Thanks,
Shawn


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SC ... maplegrove... alex .... ought to be a font of info for you ...if he misses this.. or doesnt chime in.. email me.. and i will hook you up ... he does it in his basement if i recall properly ...

do a new post .... when you harvest your find ... and.. i would share some around.. in case you fail ... maybe someone like dax.... if he is grafting.. will succeed .. presuming you harvest the whole...
but do be safe ...

try googling maplegrove.. maybe you will find some old tutorial of his .. something like:

garden web maplegrove grafting ... did it for you below...

i am pretty sure.. he has no affiliation with the nursery of that name ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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SC, thanks from all for the bump.
this is an important post,,,,have it in my clippings

good luck with your grafting
waiting for your post
ron


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  • Posted by SC77 6b (My Page) on
    Fri, Oct 17, 14 at 10:27

Thanks Ken, I will try to track down some of the old threads and see if I can find where Alex mentions his lighting setup. I need to go back to the broom site and measure, but I think it's only about 25-30ft up. I'm hoping a combination of ladder + pole pruner should be able to reach it. I'm not going to harvest the whole thing, because I don't have confidence in my grafting abilities....and if my grafting is as successful as my past rooting attempts...I'm in trouble!

Ron, no problem. Yea, this is a high quality post. I will certainly provide an update, but it might just be a picture of 10 dead grafts...


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Yep, you'll have to ask Alex/maplegrove.

I'd recommend you get your knife sharpened by Frank Surace in Chicago. You send the knife in a small priority flat rate shipping box with return paid postage included in the box. It's very inexpensive. All in all you'll spend 20 bucks or less.

Let me know if you ever need help or have questions. Send an email if you'd like.

I am grafting this winter but am heavy on Picea and very short on soft pine. The broom you found will be there next winter, so cut only what you need.

Dax


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Hi Shawn,

A 400W light will be sufficient to illuminate a ~4' x 4' area. A higher wattage lamp will cover more space, and a 600 or 1000W light will get you a 6' X 6' - 8' X 8' area of usable space. For grafting in your garage/basement, be sure to get a metal halide lamp, which will supply the blue side of the spectrum needed for vegetative growth. I used a 400W light for several years and last year upgraded to 1000W.

I had considered grafting in my garage until I realized it would be way too cold in February, and I moved the operation down into the basement. In case you've not already found it, here's a link to a thread from a few years ago showing some details of my setup. I hope it might help in some way.

Feel free to e-mail if you have any other questions or want to discuss.

-Alex


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Pseudotsuga menziesii cell grown 30cm whips ready for grafting from my P men.'Knaphill' on Feb 1st. I'll pot them up now so they'll be good to go. (From Highlandtreesno.1 on Ebay) Should I remove side branches now or in the spring?

 photo P1180259.jpg


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