hi

on easter sunday i dont have time to go into detail ... but i want you to start mulling this over ...

i doubt you will find anyone here.. who is going to high five the idea.. of you planting trees with 50 to 100 foot potential ... and topping them off at 10 feet ... see link

in a matter of just a few years.. you are not going to be able to place a ladder close enough to them.. to keep trimming out the leaders.. besides the fact.. that picea pungens will make you bleed ...

and you should learn the latin names of plants for your project.. as it will make searching for info much easier ...

finally... those are rather large transplants.. do you plant on having this done with hired help.. or do you plan on trying to kill yourself.. lol ... if its the latter.. do you realize what these things will weigh.. time 50 odd plants.. etc ???

will be back Monday.. ken

Here is a link that might be useful: picea pungens is blue spruce ...

Use Abies concolor or Picea omorika in lieu of Picea pungens in the Midwest or Northeast for screening. There are too many disease issues with pungens to use it as a screen.

or better yet.. diversify ... for color, texture and family.. to avoid cataclysmic destruction down the line ...

but i have a feeling.. you want this done yesterday.. some level of instant solution to the problem.. and you will be severely limited as to what is available.. locally.. and in size ...

but dont forget.. what you need is a plan.. and if you had the plan.. and planted half ASAP ... and had to order some stuff in for FALL planting.. in the scope of things.. those planted in fall would barely end up different than the spring planting

and i am really stumped at you trying to keep them at 10 feet ... WHY????? .. even if you keep chopping the tops off.... they will get wider.. and wider ... is there some zoning issue.. power lines?????

perhaps if you favored us with a picture of the spot.. we could better understand what you are trying to do...

ken

Ken - nice pics on the link you provided. A few followup points - the nursery will guy will install the trees and not me. Also, in all fairness he may have suggested the 10ft apart spacing based on my first interaction with him when one of the things I had asked him was privacy in a shorter duration, which is still what we want but not at the expense of having a wild look after a few years.

After reading a lot of posts here and a bit of browsing, it is clear that 10 ft spacing is too close - one point taken care of. The next point will then be - what is the middle ground? I fear that calculations based on the maturity width may take forever to give me the privacy that I want.

I am more inclined towards the picea abies and pungens glauca (how is that Ken?) more because I see them in my immediate neighborhood and they have grown well. White pines and doug firs were other options but the first one appears to thin out which I donâÂÂt like and the second one was discouraged for my area by the nursery guy. Do want to stick with evergreens that are most deer resistant. I would ask the nursery about what âÂÂwhaasâ mentioned.

Also, I got a rough measurement between some of the spruces around us, but until I know how old are they it does not mean much. I will take a few pics of my property and share it soon.

I am more inclined towards the picea abies and pungens glauca (how is that Ken?)

==>> closer.. Picea pungens 'glauca' ... is close enough for most of us ... glauca meaning it has a waxy coating that appears blue ..... [though there are some purists who might correct me.. and so be it.. i am trying to move you along.. w/o overwhelming you] ....

but i gotta tell you.. if you can throw in a Picea pungens 'hoopsi' in there.. it will make your plain old glauca look like carp ... see pic below.. and mine was 12 inches big one the first year noted... to us hardcore.. two different blues.. is diversity of color..

but i am not making you understand what i am trying to say.. width wise... you are talking about in between plants ... yes.. the faster you want sight blocking.. the closer you put them.. they will grow together and cope ...

but if you yard is 12 feet deep.. i am talking about encroaching TOWARD you ... that is where they will chew up space.. if you have other uses for your yard ... i dont recall you have given us this type of info ... how deep is your yard ... and what are you going to do with that space????

and.. an alleged blue spruce... will NEVER get bluer ... it either is.. or it isnt.. and technically.. they are green ... [hence the problem with common names] ... and that is why you either have to choose them for color ... or go for named varieties ...

whatever blue they flush out in spring as.. is the best it gets.. but your problem would be.. that you cant wait to see what the spring flush is.. and then plant them.. the plan would be to plant them before the flush ... or choose them this spring.. and plant them in fall ... its all about stressing them thru planting.. at the wrong time of year ...

your guys head is going to spin.. when your level of understanding has increased significantly.. over a short period.. lol.. how he reacts.. will tell much ...

once the job is done ... give us some pix of how it all went.. but most important.. is come back and talk to us about PROPER WATERING .... and that is not done with a sprinkler.. or a pistol grip ... we can talk later ....

ken

{{gwi:205545}}

We did a similar set up 5 years ago with Norway spruce with our neighbors. 2 rows 17 feet on center. Trees were 5-6 ft tall. Already we sense we should have gone 25 ft would have been better considering they have already doubled and will get much larger. Also should have diversified.

Here is a pic showing the side where we want the planting done - essentially from the left side of the pic upto the pole (after the speed sign) on the right; planting by the roadside (several feet inside ofcourse). The house sits well inside the sideline and there should be plenty of space remaining for further landscaping. My immediate plan is to plant the spruces so that they get going. I did stop by the nursery and the guy showed me the other cultivars of picea pungens, but also mentioned that it may not serve my purpose of privacy screen since they are more expensive and also much slow growing - perhaps one or two closer to my patio or front entrance will be better.

I would plant them far enough from the road so salt spray is not an issue.

Depending on the speed of traffic, salt spray drift can travel quite a ways. I'd plant a tolerant mix.

tj

Here is a link that might be useful: Got salt?

I planted a screen of Norway spruce 5 years ago. I planted two rows, staggered, with the trees about 9 feet apart, and the rows about 15 feet apart. I planted them this close with the idea of thinning them out as they grow larger, saving the best looking/growing ones. If I thin them this way, the eventual spacing will be a bit irregular, but I want to have a screen with the most beautiful trees. Norway spruce trees are quite variable, depending on the gene pool/seed source.

Mature Norway spruce in a screen can be spaced anywhere from as little as 18 feet to 25 feet or so.

I would not "mix" species in a screen like this, unless the trees are really compatible in growth rates and form. Norway spruce will grow much faster than blue spruce, and will tend to crowd it out. If you want both, plant them at least 25 feet apart, which means you will have TWO screens. Maybe that would be fine.

--spruce

Spruce,

How wide were they when you planted and how wide are they now? Also, when you say "thin them out" does it mean to take one out and possibly plant it somewhere else? (yes i am new to all this!) - this may be exactly what i can do down the road.

Secondly, when you say "Mature Norway spruce in a screen can be spaced anywhere from as little as 18 feet to 25 feet or so" - what do you consider as "mature".

Greentree:

By thinning, I mean removing, which could be transplanting, but I plan to just cut them down and cart them away. I planted my trees as little seedlings, 20 to 30 inches tall, some smaller. My trees are now an average of 7 feet tall now, and about 5 feet wide. I won't begin thinning them until they are considerably larger, maybe when they are about 25 feet tall and the screen is solid, meaning the trees are more than 9 or 10 feet wide.

Of course this thinning can be a bit of work, especially for me, with my screen almost 1,000 feet long!

By "mature" I mean 50 years old or more. But, technically, full maturity would be later. In 35 to 40 years, your Norway spruce should be nice sized trees, and be beginning to develop some real beauty. If you buy 7 footers, and they are planted very carefully to minimize transplant shock, you will be saving a good bit of time--5 years or so--over my planting of little seedlings.

One note about Norway spruce for a screen--they are a good choice because they retain their lower limbs very, very well, and are very disease resistant. but if you want to prune them up a bit, they also look very nice that way.

And, Norway spruce grow best with a good amount of magnesium in the soil. You can search this site for my post about that.

--spruce

Spruce,

Thanks for that info - lot is coming together now. I have read a lot of your old posts on this forum including the Mg hypothesis - everything quite insightful. Combined with the current thread and the one from March 2009, I think it might be best to go with 12 or 14 ft distance (which one???) between the two NS trees in the first row. My trees will be ~7ft tall and appear to be ~4ft wide. I do like the Colorado blue spruce and hence the second row will most likely be of that (thinking of mixing two seed sources with a difference in the bluish tinge). How much should be the distance between the two rows?

I have a feeling that I will get the privacy in 3-4 yrs and it will be around 12 or so years before the NS start getting into each other. At this time, every other NS could be taken out. Since the CBS will be growing slowly, perhaps a little bit of trimming of NS over the years may ensure that the privacy screen is still maintained even when one NS is eventually taken out. May be I am over thinking into this whole thing, but it is still fun!

Greentree:

There is no need to worry too much about exact spacings. What I suggested is approximate, and your thoughts now seem just fine to me.

One of your options for the thinning, is not to take out every other one, but to sometimes take out two together and or leave two together, to save the best looking ones. But, of course, that leaves irregular spacing, and to some that may not look good.

If you buy 7 footers, one advantage is that you can select the specific trees, making sure they are all really nice ones. In addition, some strains produce more "runts" or trees with thin foliage, than others. In one spot, before we bought additional land, I had planted a short screen, using small seedlings.. About half the trees turned out to be rather poor specimens, so my thinning there will be irregular.

As for the blue spruce--generally they grow more slowly than Norway spruce, and they are very intolerant of shade, so they shouldn't be planted close together. I would guess that eventually the Norway spruce would interfere with the growth of the blue spruce if they are much closer than 25 feet. But that could take 50 years or so.

Also, I think someone in this topic warned about a disease that can affect blue spruce that causes needles to drop and branches to die. If you see any evidence of that in your area, maybe blue spruce would not be a good choice. Here near Winchester, VA, there is no trace of that problem. But in the mountains of Western MD, it is a problem. Some strains of blue spruce seem to be resistant to this disease, but I don't know what strains they may be.

As for what strain you might want to get, I think the "Blue Wonder" strain might be nice. It tends to have good color, although it is variable in the seedlings, and it tends to have some degree of weep in the foliage, which I think is attractive. I prefer it to another strain, which I think is called "blue majestic" or something like that. Those trees are a bit faster growing, but seem a bit "stiff" to me.

Van's Pines has seedlings of the Blue Wonder. Maybe they also sell larger trees, or would know who might.

I, personally, would avoid getting a cultivar, which would mean all the trees would look very much alike. Seedling origin trees give an attractive variety.

--spruce

i admit.. i havent read all the replies ...

but a few things come to mind.. nothing within 25 feet of the power lines ... this will also help with the salt issue .... a line of native shrubs might reduce that.. under the lines ...

diversify ... your plants.. all of one thing can lead to total failure.. should some bug come thru ...

i would do some large.. but a vast majority i would buy from a place like the link below .... looking at the 3 to 4 year old options.. i have to believe this is thousands less than your guy ...

if you go with larger plants.. you are going to have to figure out.. how to deeply water them at least once a month.. a smaller tree is much more forgiving on the stresses involved in planting... and after care ... just as an example.. how will you give 5 to 10 gallons per tree once a month for a year or two .... you cant just stick them out there.. and hope for the best ...

and the link gives you options to plant say.. 10 of 10 different families of conifers ... try to avoid a straight line of uniformity ....

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

guys, thanks for all the comments. I have placed the order and the nursery guy is waiting for them to be delivered. In the meantime he is going to have the utility guys come and put the mark-down flags - depending on the weather and his prior commitments, we should have them planted within 7-10 days. I will post a pic once it is done. Hopefully this thread helps others as this forum has helped me.

Regarding watering, he says once a week for 5-7 min per tree and twice a week during the summer months. Any comments regarding mulch and/or fertilizer or other caring tips?

Regarding watering, he says once a week for 5-7 min per tree and twice a week during the summer months. Any comments regarding mulch and/or fertilizer or other caring tips?

==>>> well .. good luck ...

as to his watering suggestion.. he must be pretty confident in his knowledge of the soil in your yard ... over 280 feet ...

IMHO.. you need to water long enough.. to keep the planted root mass damp.. for about 2 years ...

and whether or not.. 7 minutes will do that.. is frankly.. unknown ... YOU HAVE TO FIGURE THAT OUT.. and adopt accordingly ...

a hand trowel used to dig 6 inches down.. will TELL YOU how water moves thru your soil ... and then you can increase the water ... IF NEED BE ... the root mass planted.. must NEVER dry out .... for 2 years .. but not be sodden .... and if it rains once per week.. you may never heed to water..

its really impossible for anyone but the landowner to figure out how to water .... as its more of an art.. rather than a science/schedule thing .....

just test say.. every 5th tree.. every once in while.. as the season progresses ... it wont take long.. for you to figure it out ...

never .. never.. fert a new transplant.. no matter what he wants to sell you ... if you suspect there is something missing from the soil.. have a test done.. and act accordingly..

i presume if you look around the county.. you will see millions of trees that are NEVER fertilized.. indicating to me.. its a waste of money ... effort.. and on some level.. snake oil ...

seriously.. PROPER WATERING FOR 2 years.. and these things should be all set.. and after that.. maybe once if there is some horrible drought ...

and in all this 'water management' .... mulch is simply a top dressing.. to reduce soil heat.. retain water.. and buffer drying winds at soil surface .... the more mulch you could add.. the better.. within some limits..

is this really w/in the budget .. i would be glad to discuss such in more detail.. but the thought of 280 feet of mulch about 6 feet wide.. might double your costs .... and i dont want to waste my time if not ....

ken

Thanks Ken. Proper watering for two years and NO to fertilizers...got it. Regarding mulch, I do want to consider it for the first couple of years till they re-establish. A very rough cost estimate for mulch would be perhaps 1 yard of mulch for 4 trees...which makes 10 yards for 40 trees. If I put it myself, it would be a couple hundred or so and that will be fine. Am I close?

On a different note, do you happen to have any website or other reading source that you would recommend for basic yard maintenance for someone like me (i had to wiki trowel!)?

A little update - just got the trees planted; one row of NS and one row of CBS - 14 ft centers, most trees are 7ft tall. I will post a pic in the next few days. He is coming back to put the mulch.

Wanted to go back and continue the discussion around watering and caring. I understand that i can take the hose and put it a few inches inside the soil close to the root system and water it at a slow rate...essentially follow what Ken says in the post above. Any way i can make it a bit easier? What's the deal with the "drip system" that i came across while browsing?

It must be exciting (it would be for me) to have that many trees at that height, instantly...

Really looking forward to your pics.

You know I would forget the drip system (they're not as easy as people think to maintain- emitters get clogged, there a lot of work to put together- but I will defer to those that are more versed in them than I) ...I would recommend each tree has (2) 5-gallon buckets on each side - (your trees are large, other people (1) bucket is enough) with either one brick or a decent size rock in each. You drill a 1/16 hole or ~, in each bucket and come thru with a hose and fill each bucket a few times a week. Keep the buckets clean so they don't get clogged. Living in the country (Me) I have dust and dirt flying around. Put the drilled hole(s) near but not at the trunk and over the course of the summer bring them back away from the trunk say an inch per week. I'd start off with the holes 6" away from the trunk.

You can find buckets at bars, restaurants, etc-. You want to keep the soil moist all summer so you may need to go 3x. I'd do 2x starting now per week.

Congrats man. I'd be stoked. This is like the best birthday present ever in my mind.

Dax

Thanks Dax. Yes, I am quite excited....they do look nice. Just FYI..I did look at a drawing that you had once posted combining NS and CBS for someone's yard! Several of the past threads have been quite helpful.

Just finished watering for the first time...and ooohh yes, it took quite a while - I just had 3x100 ft garden hose to begin with and no splitters. Clearly, I need a better option. Your bucket alternative is pretty interesting and can solve the issue. But it seems that for my trees there isn't enough space (6in from trunk) to fit in a bucket..and also not sure how the appearance of 70 buckets (2X35trees) will go with the wife. If nothing else, then i will just get a couple of splitters and extra hose...will continue thinking...

Put in drip lines. I have some with emiters every 12". They put out 1/2 gallon per hour per emitter. I run 1800' on 1 hose at 8 psi. I can get you more info if tou want

Put in drip lines. I have some with emiters every 12". They put out 1/2 gallon per hour per emitter. I run 1800' on 1 hose at 8 psi. I can get you more info if tou want

Really easy to do on a straight row. This is my simple setup. The filter and pressure regulator are a must. I run it for 24 hours at a time as needed. Connects right to a hose.

Thanks JTH. I would like more into it. One thing that came to mind - what are the chances the grass cutting guy will mess it up - weed wacking between the trees, main tubing from faucet through the lawn

A couple of quick pics...

pic-2

pic-3

This is were I got all my stuff. You may have a more local source, or they may ship. You will need to find out.

Get a hold of them and they will want to know : how long a distance, and a bunch of other stuff to help you get set up.

I cant help you with the grass guy. You can always burry it if you want, but that sounds like a lot of work.

Here is a link that might be useful: Drip line and irrigation supplier