I'd rock Canaan Beng.

Dax

Dax, never seen a large one, so I'm skeptical it grows into a large tree here. Maybe in the high-elevation Canaan valley.

I remember we tried a couple Fraser firs on the lawn when I was a kid. They grew at best a couple inches a year & we cut them down out of frustration.

It's possible the hybrid vigor may surprise you. It's an off the cuff guess from me. Here they handle the drought/heat and have grown like weeds for me.

I have an understock order of them arriving toward the end of April. I'd be happy to send one for trial. Contact me if you're interested, Beng.

Dax

The Canaan fir isn't a hybrid, it's a natural variety of Abies balsamea.
It's true full name is Abies balsamea var. phanerolepis.

You are correct. oops!
I always thought it was a naturalized crossed with fraseri, and I'm wrong.

Dax

OK, I'll be more specific. From the Forestfarm list (& my comments):

Abies alba
Hard to trust European firs in east US

Abies balsamea
Too warm here for a Canadian boreal tree

Abies borisii-regis
Another Euro-fir

Abies bornmuelleriana
Euro-fir. Maybe somebody knows more?

Abies cephalonica
Greek fir -- not cold hardy here

Abies chensiensis (chinensis)
** Looks promising, but all green

Abies concolor
Have one -- very slow

Abies delavayi
Only zone7 hardy

Abies fabri
Again, zone 7 hardy

Abies firma
Perhaps a good choice, but zone 7 again

Abies fraseri
Experience shows it was very slow

Abies grandis
Maybe, but west NA conifers, as a rule, don't do well in east

Abies koreana
** Seems compatible

Abies lasiocarpa
An alpine fir from the west US -- not promising

Abies nephrolepis
An alpine tree from China/Siberia -- not promising

Abies nordmanniana
** Proven performer, but dark green w/o a trace of blue-green

Abies pindrow
Only zone 8 hardy

Abies pinsapo
Spainish fir -- zone 7

Abies procera
West US mountain fir -- I don't trust them here. Any experience?

Abies recurvata
** Possible

Abies sachalinensis
** Possible

Abies spectabilis
Only zone 8 hardy

Abies veitchii
** Possible

Stars indicate the best possibilities as I see it. Anybody grow Korean fir in east NA? Anyone seen the big western US firs growing in the east?

bornmuelleriana - definitely. It's right there with nordmann.
recurvata - I agree. A good one to give a go at.

I would add:
homolepis
holophylla
koreana:
cilicia
x koreocarpa
x arnoldiana
firma: I had one for 3 years in zone 5b and it was killed due to mechanical error (hit it with a mower several times). The cultivar 'Golden Hue' I've had in the ground for 5 years with zero dieback. For some unknown reason to me it's rated to zone 5. It does just sit there and not grow for me though.

Dax

I have had good results with A. firma in WNY z.6a. Grows at least a foot a year for me with no die back. However, not a blue tinted fir as your post says you're looking for. There is a large A. procera in Hyde park in Rochester, NY, but it looks a little scraggly. I would try A. cilicica - more of a gray-green needle color on a cold hardy fir. I should take some pics of my various firs . . .

Evan, I'd like to see them.

Dax

Dax, will do, but be warned, I start with small stock. Most are 3 foot tall or less and still potted in my "tree nursery"!

I'm very interested.

Dax

Dax, you may be on to something. Canaan fir is described as able to tolerate poorly-drained soils. I'll prb'ly buy several species & choose the best performers.

Hi Beng,

I've some 25 seedlings of Canaan. They were bare-root plantings spring of 08. 95% - to put a number on them lived. These past two summers with heat index's of 100-110 for several months without rain or supplemental watering on my part hasn't (flinched) them a bit. I'm also growing the majority of them in clay... albeit loamy-clay. Only my Picea omorika (25 or so) seedlings have grown equivocally. The other firs are 1/3 the size of the Canaan's.

I ordered them from Don Hilliker at Treehaven after a phone conversation with him where he highly recommended them, for here. He was spot on.... needless to say.

Dax

"Abies alba
Hard to trust European firs in east US"

"Abies borisii-regis
Another Euro-fir"

I don't see why you should distrust European firs? Abies borisii-regis should be just as good as A. nordmanniana, its climatic requirements are similar and it is closely related. Abies cephalonica should be OK in zone 6, too. Abies alba is perhaps a bit less attractive (less dense foliage) but no reason it shouldn't succeed either.

Resin

Beng:

Holophylla, Holophylla, holophylla!!!

You are not that far from Winchester, VA. Before you buy anything, you need to come to the VA Arboretum and see the Abies holophylla there. They have a lot of Nordmann firs there also, so you can compare.

The Arboretum is on route 50 east of Winchester. It is about a mile east of the intersection with route 340, on the right. The big sign outside says "Blandy Experimental Farm."

The A. holophylla is in the older conifer planting just beyond the buildings and a kind of open green area there. There are conifers on two sides of a kind of alleyway. To the left is a large old Baldcypress. Beyond that are the conifers. In this little grove there are two A. holophylla trees. One has an A. holophylla label on it, the other has an incorrect A. nephrolepis tag on it. They are both about 80 feet tall, healthy and lush, with a nice fresh green color. Much better than the Nordmanns, of which there are a dozen or more around.

I planted some A. holophylla here a few years ago and they are getting established nicely.

They have a nice collection of younger fir trees at the National Arboretum, but no holophyllas. the best growing fir there is the hybrid, A. vilmorinii, which is virtually impossible to find. I have never found one.

No conifer, of any kind, native or not, white pine or whatever, grows any better than A. holophylla here.

--spruce

Thanks, spruceman! Forestfarm doesn't list holophylla, so not sure who has any, but I'll search. Anybody know offhand of a source?

I've been at the VA arb several times, but many yrs ago. In fact, I may have a pic of 'em -- below. But the 90' ft Nordmann at my house growing up was hard to beat -- except that it had only a plain, dark-green color (but beautiful texture & form).

Resin, I was speaking in general terms. European trees in general don't perform well over time as do east Asian trees here. It's a climate thing, not a put-down. Of course, there are a few exceptions, like Norway spruce. I was just out the other day driving past a cemetery, and it was populated by dozens of large, mature Norways -- they were all prb'ly a century old at least and in fine shape.

Below in the center is what I think was holophylla at the VA arb. Left of center are the typical elegant Norway spruces, and some species of a (shorter) fir in left foreground:

This post was edited by beng on Thu, Apr 4, 13 at 14:00

Beng:

Give Forest Farm a call. In my catalog they have it listed in a tube in the "small quantities" section at the back. I got mine two different times from Forest Farm.

--spruce

I'm just about "fir-ed out" but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents...

"Abies alba
Hard to trust European firs in east US "

There's one at Longwood that looks as good as any of the other firs there. Especially at your elevated (I think) 6b site, neither is going to encounter summer conditions that are fatal, as long as the soil is well drained.

"Holophylla, Holophylla, holophylla!!! "

That tree is nice looking, but the Abies numidica across the field would look just as nice to some people. And A. holophylla has light green foliage with very little fragrance, perhaps only second to A. firma in the lacking fragrance department. The Abies numidica has dark green, fragrant foliage.

I ordered some firs from Treehaven - intending to graft them onto A. firma or A. nordmanniana for long term survival. At this point I must have encountered > 1/2 the species. Here's my ranking of fragrance: I'm only interested in the ends of the list not the middle:

Abies grandis - maybe not what you expect for a fir, but sensational. Like the finest tangerine or orange oil for culinary use. I will definitely be trying to graft one into Abies firma for planting in the open garden; for now I have my scion source planted in one of my super-well-drained, elevated, overhang protected beds, where I am growing other plants from California that have no business surviving on the east coast.
Abies koreana - Abies forrestii - both have a sweet resinous flavor. I am currently trying to graft spruceman's A. forrestii onto A. firma.
Abies concolor - citrusly, but not as nice as Abies grandis
Abies alba - my favorite of the firs at Longwood

various firs in the middle - Resin says Nordmann isn't very fragrant, but the one I have grafts of from Carlisle, PA, was definitely fragrant and stunk up the room where we were grafting them...I'd put the various Mediterranean firs in here

Abies pindrow (growing at Arnold Arboretum btw - at least zn 7 hardy, not zn 8) - seems to be the strongest of the A. momi genus section (cf: http://www.conifers.org/pi/Abies.php)
Abies recurvata
Abies chensiensis - still smells like a fir, barely
Abies holophylla
Abies firma - barely any fragrance at all

Thank's david -- interesting observations. The soil will be clayish & heavy, so that's one of my issues.

This post was edited by beng on Mon, Apr 8, 13 at 19:05

If it's clay and acid, I think almost any fir (that's at least zn 6 hardy) will grow for you if grafted onto A. firma. Provided it's well drained of course...even A. firma doesn't grow in swamps. If it's alkaline for some reason, Osprey in NM has found the Nordmann fir to be better; but I think that would work for you too. There are some in the suburbs of DC on clay soil that look just fine.
I want to eventually try most of the western firs on rootstocks. If in 10 years I have problems with my grafts, I'll be the first to let you know! I already have a large Abies concolor in my yard, which is incredibly rare this close to the Chesapeake Bay, but I think its days are numbered.

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Mon, Apr 8, 13 at 19:34