Regarding Bunya-Bunyas in San Francisco there are several on private properties planted many decades ago, in Golden Gate Park, and a whole grove near Fisherman's Wharf on a slight hill at the base of Hyde Street, can't miss them. It's also a good chance to see how different they look from mature Monkey Puzzles.

Most of the trees planted in neighborhoods 100 or more years ago were for shade purposes, remember the good old days before air-conditioning. Your only refuge from the heat was being under a tree in the back or front yard, the house (especially due to the long hours of cooking meals) felt like an oven. San Francisco trees of the same period were planted mostly as windbreaks in windy treeless neighborhoods, the city has never needed shade trees (although there are plenty in some neighborhoods to give that "East Coast feel", it just depends where you look). Remember, every single tree in Golden Gate Park was planted (or is the result of reproduction of planted trees), it was rolling sand dunes before that. Look at photos of the trees today, not bad for a relatively short time. Of course our suburbs tend to be much younger than those on the East Coast, California's huge suburban expansion is a relatively (past 75 years) recent phenomenon. San Francisco has natural air-conditioning due to the configuration of the Bay and the fog, it is truly amazing. "The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco" that memorable century-old quote sums it up quite nicely.

Of course there were porches lol, but your porch was much cooler with a tree shading it.

here's an (admittedly bad) view showing the leafiness of part of Pasadena
http://www.velo-retro.com/images/Pasadena.jpg

I did see a few leafier neighborhoods in the Bay Area. It just seemed like there were more in SoCal, which struck me as slightly paradoxical because rainfall is lower and less frequent there. Laurel Canyon is also famously treed. Again I'm not talking about parklands and hillsides. I only mean the purely residential areas:
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4257-Laurel-Canyon-Blvd-APT-4-Studio-City-CA-91604/2127948785_zpid/

(actually in Studio City, not far away)

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:679258}}

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Thu, Nov 29, 12 at 17:40

Here is a photo of the San Francisco residential neighborhood of Forest Hill, I think it shows off the city's trees quite nicely. For all of you an extra bonus question, name all the conifers in the pic!

Photo of the residential neighborhood of Glen Park (don't show the pruning job on the left to sal!!!) I could do this all night. The bottom line is there are plenty of residential hoods in San Fran full of trees. There are even botanical tours of all our neighborhoods. Definitely spend some time looking around next time you're here, it will be quite rewarding. I haven't even shown you the tropical philodendron hoods, the cacti & succulent hoods and of course all the streets covered with palms, I tried to keep it to pix showing conifers.

Back to Araucaria - there are lots of old A. bidwillii all over Florida. Just yesterday I saw probably a dozen while driving across the state. Unfortunately, lightning and hurricanes are not friends of the bunya pine. True A. heterophylla is much rarer here than CA, but A. columnaris is one of the commonest trees in some areas. I don't know why true heterophylla is so rare, it grows well and can be gigantic - like elsewhere, with luxuriant rich crowns.

I love the urban forests around SF and LA both. I especially like seeing the tropicals, cool xeric plants, Phormium etc. growing next to spruce, birch and aspen as I have seen in Berkeley. Must be nice..

ps The large conifers on the top of the hill in the 2nd photo are not in a park, if you look closely you'll see houses peeking out amongst them. Yes San Francisco is a VERY hilly city!

I miss the ability to grow all the species I did there that need greenhouse treatment here, but in turn citrus and other species that need warmer conditions to thrive (and fruit properly) do much better here. I'm glad I still get to visit frequently, it's worth it just to trek through Golden Gate Park. Did I mention the huge Eucalyptus forests? The city is sensory overload for plant enthusiasts. Boy I miss the tree ferns, many with staghorn ferns growing on their trunks (put there by man of course! ;-) In your neck of the woods salicaceae I'm sure they thrive.

Golden Gate Park:

Name this Araucaria ;-) Golden Gate Park:

Buffalo (Bison) Paddock, Golden Gate Park in 1944. By the time I came to the city there were only two bison left (they were so tame you could pet them through the fence). Only in San Francisco...

Monterey Cypress, Golden Gate Park:

"For all of you an extra bonus question, name all the conifers in the pic!"

Pic's too small to see well, but there's several Pinus radiata up there, some probably Sequoia sempervirens, and maybe one each Cedrus deodara and Cupressus macrocarpa.

"True A. heterophylla is much rarer here than CA, but A. columnaris is one of the commonest trees in some areas. I don't know why true heterophylla is so rare"

Probably because most people think their Araucaria columnaris are A. heterophylla? So no-one goes out of their way to look for the real thing.

"Name this Araucaria ;-) Golden Gate Park:"

Araucaria heterophylla

Resin

To Resin: The name test was just tongue in cheek but I'm glad you participated. You still have all the conifers on the ground level to name, try a higher magnification and see if that helps. The Araucaria was also a joke question, I posted it in response to salicaceae's comment about the true heterophylla. Notice the smiley face ;-) You can never mistake those upturned branches, they are so beautiful.

ps It might be a little hard to see the conifers on the hill in the Glen Park photo because of the massive Euclips, but you can make out their tops past them if you try looking at it with 400% magnification, lol!

So who's the winner here?

davidrt28 who can never get all he wants to say in one post and has to come back time after time to finish. Applies to every thread he's been involved in.

floramakros who got sucked into this thread because of no nonsense let's tell it right and get the facts out there. Seems to have the upper edge.

Interesting confrontational post to say the least.

Thought for the day: Be who you are and say what you feel ... because those that matter... don't mind ... and those that mind ...don't matter!

I think that was accomplished here.

Resin...you had some good input.

Dave

You summed it up quite nicely Dave, well done. With no input from third parties I thought I was out in the wilderness fighting for common sense all by myself. Glad to know others saw what I saw. Cheers.

"Interesting confrontational post to say the least."

It had to be, it dominated three threads, lol! Although I was hoping to keep it to just one, david created the second thread and chose to bring it into this Monkey Puzzle one. I'm glad it has all settled down. I have real issues to deal with, like the torrent of rain this week, I hope there isn't severe flooding. Stay safe everyone.

Just so those of you outside of CA know what's happening:

Storm pounds Northern California with rain, wind
November 30, 2012 19:25 GMT

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- The second in a series of storms has been hitting Northern California, with heavy rain and wind knocking out power and causing localized flooding.
Some coastal areas of the region were under a flash flood watch this morning. Thousands of people are without power.
A power outage also affected the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge, where at least the suspension span was briefly in the dark.
Officials say another storm is expected over the weekend, creating the possibility of rock and mud slides in areas that are already saturated and have been affected by wildfires.

END OF STORY - Say a prayer for us...

"Say a prayer for us...

Done.

tj

Dear tj, thanks for that, I really appreciate it.

To All, check out how columnar These wild A. columnaris are, hard to believe most of them in the trade are labeled Norfolk Island Pines:

A. columnaris planted on the left, A. heterophylla planted on the right. A one thousand word description couldn't show the difference between the two species better than this photo:

Nice comparison. In a park in Sarasota there are mature A. columnaris, heterophylla and bidwillii growing in a grove together.

The most uniform heterophylla i ever saw in my life was by the boardwalk in Santa Barbara.

The edge of a wild Monkey Puzzle tree forest, Chile:

The tallest tree at one of the most famous intersections in San Francisco, Market&Castro, right above Harvey Milk Plaza is an Araucaria. Google Earth the address to see a great ground level sweep of the tree:

The fullest giant Bunya-Bunya I've ever seen grows straight through the patio of the Hayward Public library in CA! These are not my photos, I unfortunately didn't take any when I was there (it was an unexpected surprise!):

Crown:

Closeup of branches:

Trunk, just when you thought you've seen it all!

The Patio was built as a branch and cone shield for people entering the building, that's one way to solve the problem! It looks more fragile than it is, very sturdy construction.

Why didn't they just cut down the tree? It's the pride of the city, probably the most famous tree they have. Thank God for forward thinking...

Hi floramakros - courtesy point: you're in breach of copyright posting other peoples' pics here without their permission. At the very least, you should cite the source, and the photographer's name if known.

Thanks!

Resin

At this time of year a little reminder of spring to sooth participants in this thread. (Not OT, you can see the MP) Dartmouth, Devon, UK.

Thanks for the tip Resin, I'm new to posting here and didn't realize you guys labeled all your pics, I was just trying to be informative. There will be no more pix coming from me anyway, after I thought all the nonsense was over in the 3 threads, david has started the harassment again in P. max. Once I spend days doing research asking friends and posting it for all of you to be informed by I expect thank yous or at least silence, what I get here from david is him pretending never to have read my many posts and constant nitpicking harassment over a word or two he misunderstood or should I really say pretended to misunderstand. Then all the ridiculous times he told me to shut up, and he's "won" and various other juvenile ploys that a website manager should have put an end to before it infected 3 threads. His ridiculous attacks began because of two words "rare DNA" everyone who has taken a look that I talked to thinks the guy is nuts telling me my bones will be crushed by elephants etc, they think he's got to be around 12yrs old or has the mentality of a 12 year old based on his rhetoric. Still I forgave him, hoping that would bring peace to the forum but it was all for nothing...Maybe I've been lucky because most serious plant enthusiasts are intelligent rational souls, if someone is missing a comma or if his advice is right 99% of the time we don't throw up red herrings yelling about the 1% where it doesn't apply, that would be foolish and hurtful to reading newbies who just want some good advice. How can anyone read that thread now rationally if they're looking for help with all of david's garbage in the way...We had posters from all over the world for years on the Carnivorous plant list and we never had a serious argument let alone was anyone subjected to such rhetoric, they would have been booted. That was 20yrs ago, how sadly times have changed...I'm really glad to have met most of you, you seem like wonderful people whom I would have had years of joy with, the best of luck with your gardens...Adios...

Wait a second, why should I let one idiot ruin all my fun? I'll just completely ignore his msgs like 90% of people already do... ;-)

Below is a Google Earth image I captured of the largest Bunya-Bunya planted on private property in San Francisco at 1818 California St. Is that OK credit Resin? Check out the address when you're in town, it's listed on our famous/historic tree registry:

How about two idiots?

"How about two idiots?"

Sure ian, you can be an idiot too.

So does that mean you're leaving now? I mean, I like the pics, but I could do without the pretentious, self-vindicating attitude, and I'm probably not the only here who feels that way.

"but I could do without the pretentious, self-vindicating attitude"

You're perfectly describing david's posts ian "HAHAHA I WIN!...bs...bs", perhaps you're confused. Go ahead and read the 100+ msgs again then give us an educated opinion like Dave did. I frankly don't understand why you want to keep the personal insults coming, calling me an idiot when we haven't even communicated before is not the road to harmony or a sign you hate this nonsense as you claim. I admit it was idiotic to respond to david's diatribes in the first place, he's demonstrated he's not a person to be taken seriously, don't make me feel the same way about responding to you. Do you have something to say about Araucarias or have you decided to steal david's role as the clown of this thread? I guess we'll know by your future messages.

Floramakros:
I _DO_ win because no one here, including you, has offered a single substantive refutation of anything I've posted on the issues initially raised in the Pinus thread and later those separated into another thread by me to keep things organized. (Except Resin on the very minor issue of where to collect the best C. florida for NW Europe; and because I'm a reasonable, not highly defensive person, I agreed he probably had a good point at least w/respect to the UK proper.)

You seem to consider an ad hominem attacks on others - most recently calling me an "idiot" - to be a valid way to argue. I have a BS degree in biology from a top 50 rated US university and worked in one of the country's leading toxicological research labs after college. (but since moved into another field, since having to wear a ventilator mask at work can be a major downer!) Is that my qualification for being an idiot? Is that why my arguments are routinely debunked by other people (not!)?

Look, I've been here for 7 years longer than you, and I was actually on gardenweb since its inception under another user name. We've had troublemakers come and go. Guess who's looking like the troublemaker recently? I came into the Pinus thread having seen your earlier posts and having thought of you as another positive contributor. I'm sure you forget but I responded to one of your earlier posts about Pinus strobus in California, in the hopes of it being helpful _to you_. I see you insult the original poster ("we get a troll"), and then get into a tussle with Salicaceae/Jason. I TOTALLY ignore this drama initially, and comment only on the validity of your argument about the theoretical plant SCPalmnut could purchase. (post 23) I point out quite reasonably that a clone in the nursery trade doesn't constitute "rare DNA". By definition, nurseries and arboreta don't sell out their last mother plant of anything when running a grafting operation. That's why they've grafted it. We reasonably assume that SCPalmnut was not going to visit the grove in Mexico and smuggle out cones of an endangered species! (not that they aren't already being "wasted": "Like other pinyons, the seeds are edible; this represents a threat to the species' survival, as the majority of the seeds produced are harvested, limiting natural regeneration of the pines." per wikipedia) Remarkably, it's always been obvious that I agreed in general with you discouraging SCPalmnut, I just dared to attempt to make the slightest correction to why you were criticizing him.

To respond to a post that completely ignored drama, guess who turned on the drama:
"So we should stop giving our infants vaccinations because there's a chance they'll be hit and killed by a school bus at the age of 10 anyway...that's seems like pretty twisted logic..."

I took this affront _to reason_* as an invitation to put you in your place. For someone like me, that meant using logic to debunk your faulty rhetoric, not tell you you needed therapy. This is where I made my one and only mistake - by continuing at all. I probably should have realized no one was taking your silly vindictiveness seriously, but I didn't. And yes, I got a little high handed in my response. (_I_ can recognize when I'm taking things a little too far, unlike some people: HAHAHAHAHA) But there's a big difference between saying "HAHA" in a post and suggesting the other person has mental issues ("Definitely seek therapy" as you said to me): instead of actually trying to respond to anything in my original posts, since this point in the narrative you have done nothing but attempt to insult me and accuse me of lying. You were apparently aghast no one else was buying it: "Please someone else say something, sheesh". History repeated itself as I point out the plant may not be able to grow in SC or FL, but is not extremely sensitive to humidity if McPotts (how fitting) had grown it in a pot in Virginia. Believe me, I've had protea seedlings last from January to June, and literally DIE a couple days after the first humid, sultry Virginia evening. I know all about the problem of maritime plants in humid climates. Again, for whatever reason this perfectly valid contribution to the thread completely enraged you.

If there's anything wrong with this precis of the current state of affairs, do feel free to let us know. I will no longer comment on "L'affaire maximartinezii" itself, although of course I will defend myself from further ad hominem attacks in this and any other thread. I'm willing to move on in the sense that I will see you again as any other poster who was making and hopefully will continue to make positive contributions. (You notice I didn't triumphantly cheer your announcement of departure; would have you done the same if I had said I was leaving for good?) Let's just say we had a "misunderstanding" and call it a day.

* - i.e., not to _me_. At no point have I responded to your attacks on me by attacking you in the same way; the statement I made about an "elephant in the room" was quite clearly a rhetorical device and not some kind of threat, as you kept trying to make it out to be in an attempt to drum up nonexistent sympathy for your side of the argument.

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Sun, Dec 2, 12 at 8:50

I did not call you an idiot, nor did I say I want to "keep personal insults coming." You are putting words in my mouth. I was merely hopeful that if you are going to stick around, you could drop the pretentious attitude. You are the one who started all this with your 'how dare you experiment with P. max' comment. Yes, I had something to say about Araucaria, which I already did - I guess you missed it.

I'm mildly worried about involving myself in such a dramatic thread, but there seems to be a lot of knowledge here concerning Araucaria in the Bay Area and these are some trees I am always on the look out for.

There is another Bunya in Oakland in the park at the Carmen Flores Rec center on Fruitvale. I also head there are a few up in Marin at the Falkirk Cultural Center.
I also spotted monkey puzzles in the city on Jackson by Webster and in Alameda on Encinal by Willow.

So are Bunya Bunya and MP's dioecious? I try to be aware of these trees in case I ever spot a cone so I can gather seeds, but so far no luck. Any pointers?

"So are Bunya Bunya and MP's dioecious?"

Usually, yes, though occasional monoecious trees are known. Here's one with both male and female cones, the only monoecious specimen I've ever seen myself out of hundreds I've seen:

{{gwi:640866}}

Resin

I don't think a. araucana or a. bidwilli are dangerous. A. araucana of all sizes are very common in schools, parks and sidewalks in the Bio-Bio and Araucania regions in Chile. And this bunya-bunya is in a very busy place near an university campus with people coming in/out and I never heard about any accident.

While we're on the topic of mature Araucaria with full crowns, this one in Old Courthouse Square of Santa Rosa (CA) impressed me.
{{gwi:679290}}From Google Earth snapshot

smivies that is one of the biggest around here...there is another here in Petaluma in front of the museum that is about the same size. They are marginal in this area but if they manage to attain enough size they can make it through the occasional freezes. People see the big ones and just assume that they can survive here and then suffer all kinds of grief with the young ones. I'd rather look at the photos and the few big ones and focus on plants that will grow here easily and goodness knows there are enough of them! Thx for the nice shot.

Just thought I report a sighting of a Monkey Puzzle Tree in Pennsylvania within Lehigh County on Race Street near the Lehigh Valley Airport. Its growing in the open within an industrial park. Its about 6-7 feet tall. The tree is growing in zone 6a with no damage.

I read through this thread before and didnt want to cause an argument, but since its up again, and in regards to heat tolerance,I saw one at AASU in Savannah, GA. I would assume thats zone 8b/9a.

DO NOT post to this thread anymore. Regardless of content, a thread with almost 100 posts and >= 20 images has become entirely too unwieldy.
I will continue the discussion in the new MP thread HERE:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/conif/msg1223324511341.html

Here is a link that might be useful: http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/conif/msg1223324511341.html