were is the answer i just spent 15 mins typing ..???

short version ..

too early..

life is in the buds ... viable buds.. firm and proper color.. dead buds black and squishy ...

you have to wait and see if and how it buds out..

JMs unlike most conifers.. have dormant buds.. wait on that also .. i have had to rebuy gifts many times ...

was this a large recent transplant ... in other words.. stressed before winter... in the last 3 years or so??? ... drought.. exttreme high heat last summer????

defining a single cause is impossible.. just sum it up by saying.. a really bad winter ...

i will try to remember any other pearls of wisdom i forgot here ...

ken

" I moved it last spring after three summers in the ground".

What kind of protection was it given to acclimate it during those 3 years? How much shade/sun?

What did it look like going into dormancy for the winter? Was it perfectly normal with not the slightest touch of burn? Summer time sun will always do this if not acclimated especially if transplanted.but damage won't show up until later into fall. I surmise this is the root cause of the damage. You can deep water all you want to but if you left 50/75% of the supporting roots sheared off during transplant then there wasn't enough left to support the foliage and it shut down.

If it took on this look over winter then I can think of a host of things that caused this. It all falls back to you then and it didn't like what you did.

If the buds are viable then it should come back but it will take awhile for it to take on the 'Skylands' look you would want.
If it decided to reward you and break bud I would screen it for two years with 60/40 screen cloth to help it get back on its feet again.

Good luck.

Dave

This post was edited by Davesconifers on Tue, Apr 1, 14 at 14:15

If the winter weather was worse than before then that would likely be it - there should have been good rooting out last fall, although, of course, in subsequent years there would have been that much more root expansion.

But 60% of the annual total of root elongation occurs in fall.

So then this variety may not always be good through the total combination of circumstances (wind, cold, dryness etc.) that occur during winters where you are; moving to a more sheltered position - if possible - might produce an improvement, although you are dealing with a tree that will eventually poke up from behind anything that is not itself quite high or tall.

If you have another spot you want to try it in now move it before the winter buds at the stem ends start to open. That way you will catch it before the spring flush of new roots, which you want to do so that it immediately starts replacing any roots that get cut during transplanting.

You also don't want to be digging it up right before the new shoots will be coming out, in case the digging (and resulting root loss) interferes with their development.

If you are instead going to try sheltering it during winter where it is now you will have to rig up something that is is tall as the tree is.

And will remain in place during strong winds.

Its just simply winter burn which is caused by the wind and/or sun.

When the ground is frozen, the roots cannot absorb water to supply it to the needles. If the weather turns warm and sunny while the ground is still frozen, evaporation from the needles increases and the water cannot be replaced. This is why I experience the most burning during the month of March when the sun's intensity increases.

I have three, two which have been in the ground for 3 years. Mine look 100x worse so you made out pretty good considering you just transplanted it this fall.

Looks like you might have it in full blazing sun. Shade cloth may be in order this summer.

Thanks guys, I'm in no hurry to remove either of those or the others that probably perished this winter.

The :Skylands" was transplanted in early May, this has worked best for me, although this is the largest specimen that I have moved.

I have moved stuff around each of the last few years with no losses from anything that was healthy to begin with.

I knew that I was taking somwhat of a chance this time, but I couldn't resist putting it somewhere that others could enjoy it as much as I do. Probable lesson learned.

The tree pushed maybe an inch and a half after the move last year, never coned heavily, I'm told that this is a sign of stress. There was zero burn going into fall despite a hot dry summer. I watered deeply as needed with the recommended finger test.

Having previously been on the east side of the house, it did receive sun until only 1 PM, albeit hot direct sun. After the first year, it showed zero burn in that area. I would have expected what I got had it still been burning in the protected location.

I have no doubt that I put the tree in a bad situation with the winter we had. I'll shade cloth based on the recommendation and see where it goes.

Possibly winter protection as well for the next two years, then decide if this is actually a feasible location.

Thanks again.

I have never seen a 'Skylands' burn from winter sun/wind. In Shawnee we have plenty of sun and strong north winds with humidity sometimes down to 10-15 % in the Winter.

If there is adequate root mass to provide all it's needs during the growing season then no burn should occur.

The fact this tree pushed 1-11/2 inches last year tells me it was stressed and void of enough root mass to provide for the foliage. Thus when it hardened off there wasn't enough meat in the needles for protection.

This wasn't a small tree you took on to transplant. What was the size of the root ball you salvaged to take with it? Was it compromised by breaking it ? If so that breaks the small hair like roots that are attached to the main roots. This spells doom as they provide enough for for the tree to survive until it reestablishes new roots that were severed when moved.

Dave

Dave, In WI and northern IL the soil stays frozen for about 60 days longer than in your neck of the woods.

In fact its still frozen on north, east and shaded exposures.

You've been flooded with 50s, 60 and 70s through out March.

Here it got into the 50s all but three times, with two of those hitting on the very last days of March. Its a whole different ball game up here.

Dave, I have a small Skylands which looked pretty darned good last summer especially considering the terrible heat and drought of 2012.

Something bothered it this winter. Maybe it was the snow cover not melting or the lack of liquid rain vs frozen snow. You wouldn't think it was our -5 to -10F lows. But something has mine looking like a mini version of John's.

Conifers are slow to show damage. I removed the shade from mine August or so of last year. Could that be it?

Could the damage John is seeing be from the time after the transplant and not this winter then?

Just thinking outloud.

I would shade cloth it for at least two years. Bottom line. Lots of water.

Tornado, you should do the same.

Dax

my thought process ...

you had a well established .. well growing plant ...

in transplanting it.. you cut off most of its feeder roots... severely stressing it ... not to mention.. it was a large transplant ...

lets presume you watered properly ... it was still not re-established going into winter ...

so wondering.. what was the cause of the needle burn ... the equation is: bad winter + transplant ...

continue to insure proper deep waterings .. proper mulch ... and then hope and prayer ...

i doubt it will die ... the issue will be more along the lines.. of how ugly it gets.. and for how long.. and what your tolerance for that will be.. depending on where it is... and how often you have to look at it ...

i have what i uses to call the worlds ugliest S ... its buried somewhere back on my 5 acres.. i walk by it twice a year... and maybe this year will be the one it takes off ... but again.. its not where i see it.. and fixate on it.. everyday ... so it is free to do its own thing ....

but no matter what it ends up looking like... i can send you an application for the weirder the better club.. if you wish .. lol ...

keep us posted...

ken

For the most part a lot of us are growing many different conifer cultivars in a climate completely out of sync from where they originated from and are free to grow without our intrusion into their life style even though the zones are the same.

If they survive the first three years consider yourself lucky.

Most are planted where the new owner wants them with no consideration given to the plants likes and dislikes. Then the owner decides it needs to be moved. When that occurs more then likely the roots and root ball are compromised. Strike one against the plant.

Secondly when planted the soil composition you have plopped the newbie in does not even remotely match it former soil composition where it originated. Amendments. black dirt, soil fertilizer spikes are the norm to get this thing jump started. Strike two against the plant. I won't go into why.

Then we have a host of other strikes that could effect this plants survivability. Over or under watering. Usually over watering and the plant sits in a bog because of wrong soil composition. Not properly cloth shading those plants that require it. Insect control. Spider mites, scale and bag worms and a host of other friendly eaters that this plant doesn't have to deal with in its natural environment.

Then the foul ball out. This has happened to me. Over a period of one to two days a nice healthy plant just dies for no reason. Haven't figured that one out yet.

Whaas ...I don't care how many more days of cold, rain or dry winds you have. If your plant has a good healthy root base and has not been moved it is programed to live. Unless ,of course, it becomes a victim of out of zone conditions it cannot survive in. The only difference between mine and your plants is my growing season is longer with all other things being equal. Yours won't break bud until it is programed to do so and your temps and climate dictate that.

Tornado I think in my above comments I have about covered everything that will damage 'Skylands'. Some of them just don't do well no matter what precaution you take to insure their survivability. There is something going on with yours. In some cases they cannot be explained. As Dax said and I agree ...go ahead and re-screen it.

llinois-John...I apologist for hi-jacking your thread. We all will be forever in a learning stage. That's what this forum is for. Sometimes the subject matter gets stretched to the max for whatever reason. Hope you not totally confused.

Dave

Sup Dave, I was trictly talking about winter burn and frozen roots.

Science dictates whether a plant is going to burn from sun, wind etc and its inabiltiy to supply moisture to those needles when the soil is frozen. Some plants are programmed to cope elements differently than other in their native habitat. Picea orientalis is one spruce that is subject to winter burn more so than many other spruce. Throw on the yellow foilage and you compound the issue.

To me its clear the plant suffered from winter burn and more so due to the root loss. I'm willing to bet we're seeing the south side of the plant. Also willing to bet the lower branches that show a nice yellow where under snow most of the witner.

Guys, I really appreciate the insight. I think the main thing is how do I save it and how long can I tolerate it's "makeover" before it looks decent again? Only time will tell.

I would argue that my transplant was good, but then again, I think most of us would. All of my plantings are on berms of "top soil" mixed with native black dirt. I don't amend based on what I've read here. I mulch all of my good stuff thoroughly, the less prized possessions, I'm not as diligent on.

This was a container plant, one that was properly untangled prior to planting. When moved, I dug a large circle (4-5 feet in diameter) around the roots, cutting as few as possible. I dug down and under as much as possible, then having friends help gently lift the tree from its former home. Did I sever some small roots, absolutely. We dragged the tree on a plastic tarp over the grass to its new home 25' away, then I backfilled around the root mass.

The assumption is correct, the South Side took a beating, the North looks relatively untouched. Branches that were under snow are unaffected.

It's getting two years of shade cloth and proper watering. I'll keep you all posted on progress or lack thereof each spring.

Lesson learned, don't move the large foo foo trees 25 feet when they probably look pretty darn good where they are. I had initially cited the tree in a more protected area, seems that my "confidence" got the best of me.

What to do is to wait, but be aware, it may look worse before it looks better. For example, when Dave posted his Winter to Forget post, my Pic. orient. 'Prof Langner' had just some slight browning. Now that we've had a couple of 50*F days, it is looking more and more like Dave's did. This was a tough winter and things in the ground for 10-14 years have burned when they never did before...even hardy things. Not so much from the depth of the cold but more from the duration of the depth of the cold.

tj

John, the more you move it the more you are going to have a problem with it. If you like where it is at, leave it. It actually looks pretty good for just having moved it last year. Give it some time, moving it will only set it back again. I completely agree with Willl (whaas). In our climate the biggest issue is Winter burn. 'Skylands' sit out all Summer in full sun looking beautiful in their pots with no burn at the nurseries around here well into the Fall and yet stick them into the ground and with sun and wind and frozen ground two feet down with a warm day and your pretty, unestablished gold plant turns brown in a hurry.

Dan

This post was edited by dansgrdn on Mon, Apr 7, 14 at 12:18