David and folks:

The picture of the Norway spruce is supposed to be a P. abies 'Pendula Major,' but I can't vouch for that ID. I have another growing at my timberland which has a somewhat broader habit, but promises similar weeping foliage. I doubt they are the same cultivar. My 'Pruhoniceana' trees--three of them, are much smaller so far. They need another two or three years to begin to show much.

The golden tree is a T. plicata 'Daniellow' or Golden Spire.

The P. orientalis is the cultivar 'Gowdy." It is just getting started--they develop into medium sized trees with dense foliage.

--spruce

Thanks Spruceman. How small was that 'Gowdy' when it started? Would you characterize that as a semi-dwarf form? There are some pictures around of pretty big ones, such as one at the Morton Arboretum.

David:

There are one or two at the National Arboretum, which are not really old, which I would guess, not having seen them for some time, are about 25 or 30 feet tall. They seem to grow about a foot per year or probably less, but eventually they may get large. When I said "medium sized" I was guessing an eventual height of 40 or maybe 50 feet or so, somewhat smaller than the species. But by no means semi-dwarf.

I bought mine as a 30 inch tree maybe 6 years ago. It was slow getting started, Partly because it had not established a dominant leader when I got it. It wanted to grow sideways for two or three years. And one or two of the years after it established a strong leader, it didn't grow much--I am not sure why. I have two others and they are similarly slow. But it is a hot and dry climate here--not spruce country. Spruce here, including Norways, are very good looking trees, but grow fairly slowly compared to other areas where it is not quite so droughty and hot in the summer.

Another cultivar of P. Orientalis I am growing is 'Atrovirens.' This is a nice cultivar, with wonderfully dense, rich green foliage, faster than 'Gowdy,' but slower than the species. This one probably actually does one foot per year, and will probably eventually be larger than 'Gowdy.'

But my favorite P. orientalis is 'Nutans," and this may be the fastest of the three. They are a wonderfully graceful, weeping tree, with a touch of irregularity to add some interest. These grow "all over the place" for a few years, but after they establish a leader, they assert good dominance, and the tree makes very good upward progress. No training needed.

The species itself has a lot of variation, and at the VA Arboretum, there is a very large one, that I assume is of seedling origin, that has very dense foliage, wonderful color, and an outstanding weeping habit. The tree is "knock dead" gorgeous. I wish I had one of those, but I never got around to having it grafted.

--Spruce

I'm intrigued. I will have to look for the Picea orientalis the next time I'm at the arboretum. Thanks for the tip.

Small plants of 'Nutans' found in google images don't look promising. Maybe some of these grafted plants look a bit lame at first because they weren't grafted from top growth, and it takes many years for normal leader dominance to establish?

David, Spruce, if either or both of you guys would like to meet somewhere, I'm all for it. The Hagerstown City Park has an impressive tree collection (hundreds of acres), and easy access via Rt 81/Rt 70. Or the VA arb. The C&O canal tow-path along the Potomac in Cumberland near here is impressive. Or whatever....

Beng:

Good idea. I didn't know about any Hagerstown city park and tree collection.

David:

The really beautiful P. orientalis is at the far end of the little forest of conifers on the left of the "green," facing the large grassy open area--the same section that has the two A. holophylla. It is one of a pair, both fairly large--maybe close to 70 feet--but the one is much, much more attractive than the other. To confirm exactly that you are looking at the right P. orientalis--there are a number of others around--there is a fairly recently planted cedar just to the inside of the two P. orientalis.

As for 'Nutans': I was turned onto this at Suncrest Gardens where Greg has, or had 10 years or so ago, a nice one something like 15 feet tall, or a bit more. I love full sized weeping spruce trees, especially Norways, but this P. orientalis 'Nutans' was as pretty to my eyes as any tree of that size can get. It had a wonderful weeping habit, a bit irregular with some side branches out further than others. The crown was nicely open. After mine finishes its growth for this year, I will post a picture, if it has made some good progress. I have two, and the other one is yet to establish a good dominant leader, and is yet to make any good progress. But it is a few years younger, and I expect that within two or three years it will be "taking off."

Yes, what part of a plant the scion is taken from can influence how long it may take to establish a good leader. But it could be that with 'Nutans' this wildly irregular growth is the norm for relatively young grafts. I think mine took 5 or 6 years before starting to "express itself." But something of this irregularity stays with the tree, and that adds to its attractiveness after it establishes a good dominant leader and grows into a nice erect weeping tree.

I got the first from Greg, and maybe the second also, but I can't remember for sure. I might have gotten the second from Forest Farm.

--spruce