Thanks Dave for showing us some pics of this nice weeping form!
I was just doing another investigation about this one and the 'Pendula', so your pics are here right on time...

I'm interested to see what you come up with Edwin as I wasn't
aware that it had become a cultivar.I've only heard of it
referred to as Morton Arb.selection per Don Howse.Nice
photo of it in the R.H.S.cultivars,page 659.If this thread
continues I'll send a picture soon.Doug

Doug, yep, I'm "on" to something.
Please, add your picture as I'll make sure that this topic will continue...

I like this and how narrow it is. Makes it a wonderful choice for people looking for something very narrow with smaller yards.
Cher

Cher, you're absolutely right, it's a very nice narrow weeping form.
Because of it's shape it should fit in every U.S. garden, don't you think?
The only bad thing is that this one is very difficult to propagate...

Picea glauca 'Morton Arboretum Weeping', original tree.
The Morton Arboretum still has it under the cultivar name 'Pendula'.
The following photos were taken by Nate:
{{gwi:704082}}

{{gwi:704084}}
I must say that Jean Iseli had a very good taste for conifers, and like the sign said, he started to propagated it and chances are descended that weeping specimens of this species derived from this original tree...nice story!

This post was edited by coniferjoy on Sat, Jun 1, 13 at 5:54

Really interesting, Edwin. A beautiful tree! Is Picea glauca 'Pendula' a difficult plant to propagate then in general or are you referring to this particular one?
Richard

Isn't it amazing this tree seances its growing pattern could end up in disaster if it continues its right hand lean.
You can see the adjustment at the top to correct this. Sometimes other trees growing in close proximity will cause this growth pattern. If so they are not there now.

I am not sure where we are headed on a determination for a correct cultivar name. The growth habit is slightly different then 'Pendula' but is it enough to warrant being âÂÂMorton Arboretum WeepingâÂÂ?

Edwin says he's on to something. It will be interesting to know what it is.

Edwin. What prompted your sudden interest in this cultivar? Are there any grown in Europe?

Dave

Richard, the Picea glauca 'Pendula' ('Morton Arboretum Weeping)' is hard to get propagated, maybe 4 out of 10, if you're lucky.
On the other hand, the Picea glauca 'Pendula' from France is very easy to propagate, at least 8 out of 10...

Dave, I'm growing the 'Morton Arboretum Weeping'.
Like said before, it's a difficult one to graft.
I guess Jean Iseli found out the same thing...

The differences between the 'Morton Arboretum Weeping' and the 'Pendula' are that the first one does have long weeping side branches, which give it an open structure at a later age.
The second one is showing it's yearly growth into layers, with short weeping side branches, which give it a dense structure.

At first sight they look pretty simular...

Here are some pics for comparison:
Picea glauca 'Morton Arboretum Weeping'
{{gwi:704082}}

Picea glauca 'Pendula'
{{gwi:704086}}

I think the differences are clearly visible now...

Bob, with all respect for you, but you're wrong this time.
I can tell you this because I've digged a lot for information about both plants.
These are two differend cultivars, both with differend branch structures.
Like said before, the 'Morton Arboretum Weeping' has much longer branches (till 1 meter long) then the 'Pendula' has.
The open structure is not from spider mites, it's part of the characteristics of this conifer.

I've seen the French 'Pendula' in many parts of the U.S. and Europe and they do all have the same growing habit, thus climatic things and soil conditions will not change the habit for this one.

Unfortunately the original French 'Pendula' died a long time ago and with this also this cultivar died out in Europe.
Luckely scions came before into the U.S. which were successful propagated there.

The original plant of the 'Morton Arboretum Weeping' is still alive and propagation material is still availlable.
I also received some greafting material from this original plant, that's why I can tell they're differend from eachother, I can tell from my own experiences...

This pic was taken in 2010.
The differences between them were clearly visible from the beginning on.
Left: 'Morton Arboretum Weeping'
Right: 'Pendula'
{{gwi:704090}}

The 'Morton Arboretum' grows faster, does have longer needles and bigger buds.
Also this one will have a more open habit at a younger age because it's not so densely branched as the 'Pendula'.
Like I said before, the 'Pendula' is the best one for commercial goals, because it's very easy to graft.
It's all about money in the nursery world, that's why the 'Pendula' is becomming very common and the 'Morton Arboretum Weeping' will slowly disappaer...which is a sad situation imo...

This post was edited by coniferjoy on Fri, May 31, 13 at 8:13

I'm about 30 minutes from Morton Arboretum and have gone there since I was a kid. I have (4) pendulas of varying size. Where can I find the "Morton Arboretum" in the US? I haven't come across if before. I have some fond memories of the arboretum with my late father.

Thanks,
John

That is interesting because the plant on the right is just like the young plants I grow from the scion wood that came from the Morton Arboretum back about 1984 or so.

If these two pictures upload they both show plants grown from scion wood that can be traced back to the Morton Arboretum tree. The winter scene is at my place and the other tree was an Iseli donation (I believe) to the Oregon Garden since they were the only source of larger specimens 10-15 years ago.

If your source on the 'Morton Arboretum Weeping' can be traced directly back to the original tree, then we have two different growth patterns from the same tree and it is good if the less desirable form disappears. If it came from another source, then something has been mislabeled since the Morton Arboretum has only ever had one large tree.

John, it will be hard to find a 'Morton Arboretum Weeping' in the U.S.
This is because it's difficult to propagate and replaced by the French 'Pendula'.
I would be nice if you'll go visit the Morton Arboretum again and go look for yourself for the differences between them.
Maybe you can also ask for some scions, in the right propagation time of coarse.
This all wouldn't be that difficult for you, because you live pretty close by :0)

Here is the picture from my own garden.

Here is a specimen being grown in Iowa showing a nbit of a different growth habit.

I'll take the one commonly seen in the trade, as the 'Morton Arboretum Weeping' one is pretty ugly, by comparison.

The tag that came with mine was from Well's Nursery Mount Vernon WA. I have quite a few of their introductions although this cultivar appears not to be introduced by them.

Purchased in 2010 under the name Picea glauca 'Morton Tower'

Edwin corrected the cultivar name to 'Morton Arboretum Weeping' as indicated in the link.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: Picea glauca .Morton Tower'

This post was edited by Davesconifers on Fri, May 31, 13 at 11:27

Bob, all the one's you're showing have nothing to do with the 'Morton Arboretum Weeping', they all have the short side branches and are growing in layers, they're the French weeping one.

There are no two differend growing patterns of the same plant from which the less desirable form have to disappear.
These are totaly two differend weeping forms of this species.

By seeing all these pics I can only think that the following happened: you mixed up your grafted ones so you labeled the wrong one as 'Morton Arboretum Weeping', while in reality they were the 'Pendula'...
I can understand this because the 'Morton Arboretum Weeping' is very difficult to propagate.
Then I also can understand why you don't see any differences.
Now all is clear to me too...because everyone here with good eyes can see the differences at the two pics I showed of the mature specimens...

Jon, I know the 'Morton Arboretum Weeping' is the ugly one of these two, but that's not the case here.
On the other hand I'm glad that your young eyes do see the differences between the two :0)

I'd be happy to get scions from the arboretum, or at least try. Problem is I wouldn't have a clue what to do with them.

Anyone interested in this thing? I agree that it's a different look than the "pendula" I have. Personally, I like it.

I know a bunch of you guys graft and exchange stuff. I'm on the new side and with a 2 and 3 year old haven't been able to give grafting a try yet.

John, that's the spirit I like best!
I'm also very glad you see the differences between them as well.
And yes, you're right, I also like the 'Morton Arboretum Weeping' which isn't ugly at all, it does have another "look" and beside this, it's much more native to your country then the European one is.

During my trips in the U.S. I saw an American flag in a lot of gardens, the same thing they could be proud to is to have a native weeping form of the Picea glauca, which can grow as a living statue in almost every garden because of it's narrow growing habit.

For this reason alone it should be very important to me to find a way to propagate the 'Morton Arboretum Weeping' in a larger number so it would be more available for the U.S. citizens...

John, are there any conifer nurseries in your area?
Maybe you can inform one in advance about this special conifer and ask if they wan't to graft some for you.
Good luck!

I guess I am just wasting my breath on this topic. Nothing was mixed up and the plants I pictured came from the Morton plant. Jean Iseli and I both got our scion wood from this plant. You can choose to ignore this fact if you like. That is not my problem. The only reason it is listed as 'Pendula' is due to the fact that they were distributed by the Morton under that name in the early 1980's and the taxonomist would not put any other name on it even though the plant came out of Canada and was mislabeled.

Here is another picture. This is a scan of a slide I took of the Morton plant in 1982.

Bob

I have my doubts that we have two different cultivars here..

Is it not possible that the Morton Arboretum received some scions of the "French" cultivar that is allegedly the true 'Pendula'? (This would explain why they had it labeled "'Pendula'.")

Why do we just assume that the one at the Morton Arboretum is unique?

The difference in appearance could merely be caused by the soil conditions, exposure, etc..

As evidenced by Bob's photos, clearly the form varies considerably...

-Sam

Bob's pic from 1982 shows a typical "younger" Picea glauca 'Pendula.' I would believe that the tree in this very spot at Morton now is a typical Picea glauca 'Pendula' +30 years.

Edwin, I regrettably contend that your horse has left this race. As with people, a tree will change its appearance as it ages. Our friend Bob has been observing conifers for at least 3 decades longer than you and I have. His opinions possess a reverence that shouldn't be challenged in haste.

That's a good point, Dave.
Also, if the Morton Arboretum tree is 50+ years of age, that would explain why, in Edwin's experience, the tree is more difficult to graft: due to its lack of youthful vigor..

-Sam

Ok, I can live with some facts mentioned here, but why did Bob mentioned this in another topic from a few years ago:

"I believe I was the first to offer it for sale and it was unnamed at the time. I put a descriptive name on it. Iseli Nursery went with the name 'Pendula' based upon available literature. I had discussions with people at the Morton but nobody wanted to do anything with the name. The name 'Pendula' is used in the trade, even though it is not the 'Pendula' from France. I "console" myself by thinking that either they are so similar that there is no noticeable difference or the one from France is lost to cultivation."

Dave and Sam, I know Bob has some decades more ahead of me in observing conifers, but I'm only doing my home work in a right way.
The both of you can also read here what he's telling about this one.
Beside of all this, is was Bob who gave it the (descriptive)name 'Morton Arboretum Weeping', which is the cause that there's a mix up in cultivar names...

Sam, I never mentioned that the Morton Arboretum received some scions of the "French" cultivar, it derives from Canada.
Like said before, I came acros the 'Pendula' in a lot of differend places in the U.S. and Europe, and they all look the same, so soil conditions and exposure doesn't change it's habit.

I also found out that the colour of the 'Morton Arboretum Weeping' is more green then the 'Pendula'.
I'm doing to dig deeper and will come back to this later...

My horse is going nowhere, it will stay right here ;0)

Kind of interesting that Bob will be dropping by my place this week. He can look at mine. I am also growing two 'Pendula' close by for comparison.

I guess I have to remain neutral here because of my lack of experience. I buy them, plant them, and enjoy them for their beauty and enjoyment. Occasionally I comment about what I am growing. Just the basic stuff and what I know to be true.

The mix up in names for various cultivars has been on going since I joined GW in 2005. I expect it to continue long after I am gone.

While this discussion is interesting I don't expect anything to change. There are two different roads we are traveling here.

I am OK with it.

Dave

I first offered this plant for sale in 1989 as Picea glauca âÂÂPendulaâ (Morton Arboretum). So you'd have to blame someone else for the other name. And the origin was definitely the forests of Canada.

We seem to be in agreement that the mother tree of the Morton Arboretum Weeping spruce is from Canada, but was it found as a seedling in "the forests of Canada"?
Or did a Frenchman share the original French 'Pendula' with his fellow French-speaking neighbors across the pond? Is this possible?
Just curious! This is an intriguing discussion.

-Sam

I don't know yet, Sam.
The only thing I know is that something is going on here...
2 persons can dig deeper then one ;0)

Thanks for thinking with me!
I forgot that also a part of Canada is French speaking!

About the french form :
From "Manuel of cultivated Conifers" Krüssmann + den Ouden & Boom : " Discovered before 1897 by A. Carrière in Trianon Park , Versailles ,France.
Clement

The 1982 Morton arb pic is fantastic! Interesting to see what the site looked like then.

I wonder about the tree found in the French park. Could it have been a seedling, or a propagated plant?

What is the age of the Picea at the Morton Arboretum compared to the other trees pictured? Could some of the difference in the appearance be attributed to the greater age of the Morton tree? As the older lower limbs continue to grow longer and lose their inner needles, the tree becomes shaggier looking, as you can see by comparing the top 1/5 of the Morton spruce to the lower part of the tree.

Doesn't time replace beauty with character in all of us?

On another note, what's up with the longer branch near the very top of the Oregon Garden's spruce (posted by Bob on Friday morning)?

The arboretum database includes the following information.

868-58 Plant from D. Hill Nursery Co., Union, Illinois
(received as Picea glauca 'Pendula')
near Guelph, Ontario Province, Canada

Looks like the accession date is 1958

In answer to Ishcountrygal,the current years growth nearest the leader tip always emerges at right angles to
the vertical leader but assumes its weeping form the following year.Sorry I'm unable to add anything to this
interesting discussion being relatively new to cultivated conifers.
Perhaps one interesting point is that the O.G.tree may
provide a colorful new sport in the winter to come.Fingers crossed.Doug

Found 2005 Iseli Nursey catalogue

This is description in that catalogue for this plant
" Picea Glauca 'Pendula'
Weeping Zone 2 Intermediate Bluish Green

An outstanding weeping selection and an example of a plant that was nearly lost to cultivation. In 1958 the Morton Arboretum in Illinois planted this selection from D. Hill Nursery, who propagated it from a tree growing in a native stand near Guelph, Ontario. In 1982 Jean Iseli "rediscovered" the specimen at the arboretum and fell in love with it. Distinctive in its formal narrow conical shape, yet pendulous with stiffly held, drooping branches, heavily covered with light, gray green needles. "

Keith

Thanks Keith for this info and for bringing back this topic to the first page of this forum.
Simular info can also be found at the Iseli Nursery website.

I did some mat working with the numbers I know by now:
This 'Morton Arboretum Weeping' specimen was planted at the Mortom Arboretum back in 1958.
Remember, this isn't the original seedling, it's a grafted one derived from the mother tree which is still/was in Canada.
The last pic Bob showed us was taken in 1982, which will say that it was at that time 24 years old.
This could be true if I count the very difficult to find layers of it.
The 'Pendula' at that age would still show it's clearly "layer look"

At first sight when young,the 'Morton Arboretum Weeping' and the 'Pendula' are quite simular, but at a later age their growing habits are different from eachother, which you can see at the pics above.