Longaeva specimen between Warminster and Salisbury UK, on chalk but probably border amended. Looks very happy when I drive by.

armandii first, wallichiana second.

top of plant conforms to conditions separate of what the root conditions are for the seedling-rootstock. So if I want to grow Picea engelmannii in my climate it must be grafted to a rootstock that will tolerate my soil. A seedling of engelmannii will die every time I plant one, but a grafted engelmannii does great when on roots of Picea abies or Picea pungens.

Dax

Aha, Dax thanks! Yes, it is the same as people wanting rootstock to succesfully zonepush in the US.

It seems to have evaded my consideration for this country with it's moderate climate. But heavy clay soil and arid Californian highground are too far apart for me to ignore. I always have Pineresin on my shoulder whispering 'Longaeva - won't thrive, Delavayi - forget it' and for sage and sound reason.

The idea of tolerant rootstock becomes desirable.

Next question. Armandii & Wallichiana

These again are higher level trees, will they take to clay?

Time really for Resin to chip in with the specifics. One thing I'd like to ask him is what Abies Delavayi 'Buchanan' would likely be grafted onto. If it's something like Nordmanniana then I'm getting one.

Armandii- yes. It's a better substitute than what we use in the USA, Pinus strobus. It should do well in any conditions that Pinus strobus does.... pretty much all. Wallichiana, I don't know.... but since it is being used as a universal rootstock in all of Europe, my suspicions are it's quite adaptable.

In Europe, firs are grafted to Abies x koreocarpa. Absolutely the best combo on the planet.

You understand for sure! Hardy means more than cold or even hot, it possesses meaning for pests too! (disease/insect) :-)

Dax

Thanks again Dax! It's a gamechanger for me. I can take another look at some US conifers I have long coveted but thought too much of a risk. I know it's not a sure thing still but I can stop thinking that grafts are simply species sensitive top and bottom.

Don't forget to take some more pics of you conifers for the gallery, I especially want to see your Nords.

Looks like you need to pull the roots open, as is pretty much always the case with commercially used root-stocks here. I would be much more concerned about that than soil texture.

A couple of us here were just this week viewing and discussing an Abies pinapo 'Aurea' street tree that is now nearly on its side and being run into by cars. Even with a curved trunk it is now well above head height. Circling roots that have been pulled partly up out of the ground by the gradual toppling are clearly visible - as is the fact that the root-stock used was less vigorous than the scion, which has now formed a "bell" at the graft union.

"Abies x koreocarpa"
"Absolutely the best combo on the planet."

Why, pray tell, would this be a good fir combination for rootstocks? Especially in Europe, as neither species is native? Seems to me these are both smaller growing, particularly alpine firs with relatively specific, narrow geographic ranges and therefore less likely to be adaptable. The only thing I can think here is because it is likely to be slow growing, it isn't going to oddly out-grow a dwarf scion?
Seems to me that w/in reason, most firs native to Europe and elsewhere, grow in European garden soil. I waded through this website (http://www.arboretumkalmthout.be) w/o translation (Nederlands/Vlaams is painful even to read) to find this, which thank goodness is in English: http://www.plantcol.be You can find just about any fir growing in Belgium...which certainly isn't a country known for its rocky, dry soils. I suppose some of them could be grafted but many are probably seedlings. To me you'd select a rootstock in most of Europe merely on how vigorous it is.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.plantcol.be

David, I'm wrong. Let me begin there. I'll be brief but I had it in my mind that lasiocarpa grew in dry air & high elevations where it was cool (cool temps the only thing I was correct about) and that the soils were rock, sand, and "not good." I also thought it grew quick. Add it the zone 2 aspect and that's what I was thinking. I also thought it's native habitat had little to no rainfall, again, I'm wrong.

Abies koreana...... way off, again. I thought it came from hot, humid, and good soils with humidity (humidity I'm right) but it's also an "alpine" fir. I didn't know all this. All the discussion I read here about heat tolerance of Abies koreana put the wrong image in my mind. I should be reading more than "guessing." Plain and simple. And add that I thought lasiocarpa grew fast (nope!) and Koreana slower, I thought the combo of genes would make for a great, universal, rootstock.

-----

Severn- I found out that alba & nordmann are typical for Europe. Previously, many years ago - I asked Clement what he used and that's why I posted x koreocarpa. I've learned a lot since then in an email from Clement. Clement explained that Abies x koreocarpa is new and that not many Europeans are using it, in fact it's alba and nordmann that is used and I won't go into a long speech about it. Clement dabbles in a lot of different rootstocks but he likes korean at times and other times alba, nordmann and x koreocarpa.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, David.

Dax

No problem, glad we got it all sorted.

There is a beautiful old Abies alba at Longwood. I really, really, doubt that 70 years ago they had the foresight to graft them onto Abies firma! Now, we don't know if a few of their Abies died along the way but: point is, if a species can survive clay soil in the mid-Atlantic, it can survive almost anything encountered in Europe. Even though it is only native to the mountains. (granted, the clay at Longwood is not the same as the red clay of say, Georgia) That's even more true of Abies nordmanniana, which *can* do well all the way down to the upper Piedmont of North Carolina. The problem as you go further south in the US, you have a greater and greater chance of hot, wet, anoxic soil conditions occurring, and presto, Phytophthora is going to kill everything fir-ry except Abies firma and maybe a couple others. Nothing like that happens in Europe: the parts that are very hot in summer are low rainfall in summer, even if they are humid like coastal Greece. (for example Budapest, considered hot by European standards, is 79/58 avg. in summer: cooler than Boston! And certainly never gets hurricane rainfall of 12+ inches/30cm at a time)
ERGO...the native European firs are just fine for rootstock use there...and Abies alba & A. nordmanniana are probably used because seed is cheap and plentiful.

FWIW Abies lasiocarpa has been by far the worse fir I've tried here, a couple plants being killed almost overnight after a very heavy summer rainfall.

BBoy,

All three were carefully untangled while the rootballs were submersed in water as this method is 100 times more sympathetic to dry ripping them apart (in early winter I warm the water just slightly as it can take 10-15 mins) I've used it on all my conifers and the loss rate is negligable. There won't be any J or U roots unless they are the biggest at the foot of the trunk and present no girdling risk. The two Flexilis aren't really showing any belling at the union (the lens is distorting them that close) but the longaeva is so that will have to be watched, though root tangling shouldn't be an issue. I flair the roots out over a cone of container fill or soil for ground planting. Thanks for the heads up, I'll keep it monitored.

This post was edited by severnside on Sat, May 3, 14 at 16:56

Abies alba will not live here. I have loamy clay that's actually really good soil. When I moved here I'd not seen clay ever and I was bummed. I did bring a shovel before we purchased this property and wouldn't you know I dug a hole where the soil was great. The distribution of my soil here is a nice and dark loam on the high points but more clay the lower the elevation.

I've been fortunate with (1) Abies alba that's grafted. Should have said that all the Abies alba I've tried growing were grafted. I have one 'Variegata' that reverted to green and has been here for at least five years. It's not doing much, but it seems ok and I think it's a keeper.

All that being said, Clement corrected an ID of a plant I had purchased as a 'Trautmann' nordmann to Abies x koreocarpa. It's beautiful, it's growing awesome (had a 24" growth 2-years ago) and I'm just waiting for the next time it leaps like that. It's one of my favorite plants.

Canaan takes the cake here. It puts 14-18" of growth on the more-established (year 6 here this year) and are my largest seedlings. Picea omorika a close second.

I just think Abies alba cannot handle my heat that's at times accompanied with drought. It's not an overnight death but, it is annual.

Dax

"Longaeva specimen between Warminster and Salisbury UK, on chalk but probably border amended. Looks very happy when I drive by"

From crown shape, Pinus aristata.

Resin