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duke90

Thuja Green Giant Privacy Screening Project Advice

duke90
11 years ago

Hi everyone,

I was looking for some advice in regards to planting Thuja Green Giants for a privacy screening project across the front road of my field. The total distance of the field running along the road is around 1400 ft. I want to make my property more private so cars driving by can't look across the field. In addition, there's a stone quarry across the street I'm looking to block out of view. I'm 21 now and someday may build a house on the property, so my plan is to plant x number of trees each year over the next few years so that someday there will be a nice privacy screen.

I purchased 4 4-5ft trees from Home Depot so far as an initial start and had a few questions. My spacing is 8 ft. and they are running in a straight line approximately 18 ft from the road. The trees I planted are 6 feet back from the power lines that are about 30 ft high. I'm starting to wonder if that's not enough distance back. I originally figured that 6 ft back would give me 12 ft in diameter at 30 ft in the air (which I don't think they would be that wide at that height). My friend who works at PPL says PPL power company trims trees within a 5 ft radius of the lines, so as a result my distance may not be far back enough. I really don't want to get into transplanting them if I don't have to. Before I plant any more, I was wondering if I should stagger the tree line back and then continue with more trees in a straight line? or just angle the line back without staggering the trees? (I'm looking for what's most visually pleasing).

Also, what's the ideal height I should be buying? 4-5 ft trees at $35 a piece will get expensive fast, however, I want to make sure the trees survive and flourish. I try to water them once a week. Also, should I bother using a fertilizer such as osmocote?

Any suggestions for my project would be greatly appreciated!

(I will try to upload a picture of the trees I planted and an aerial view of the front of the property later on.)

Comments (36)

  • duke90
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's a picture of the trees I have planted so far. (Trees are about 18 ft in from the road and 6 ft in from being directly under the power lines that are about 30 ft high).

    By the way, I'm in Northeastern, PA. Zone 6.

  • duke90
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    4-5 ft green giants

  • duke90
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's an aerial view from Google Earth of the road I plan to eventually cover. You can see there are some wild bushes/brush there now that will have to be taken out.

  • tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Arbs are pretty sensative to salt spray. Are cars traveling fast enough through there to throw salt spray on them?

    tj

  • duke90
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The posted speed limit is 40 mph. I was thinking that may be a threat. I don't think they'd get it by cars driving by, but that's another reason I should probably bring them in further.

  • greenhaven
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am a fan of staggering, myself. The big trees are more expensive, but really, $35 is a pretty good price for big trees.

    One thing you have to keep in mind is that if you work this project over years, from one side to the other, and plant the same size trees, you will have a nice, descending line of trees in height.

    What I might suggest to to group-plant in "clumps" rather than "down the line." This way you will be creating a more natural feel while still accomplishing your screening. The also allows you the option of picking up smaller or larger trees when you find good prices.

    Does this make any sense? It makes sense in my head. :o)

  • duke90
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the advice. Staggering / planting in "clumps" may be beneficial also if I lost a tree some day, then it wouldn't look out of place to plant something smaller in it's place. If I had a line of trees like a wall then a gap would look more out of place.

    How would you suggest "clumping?" Just staggering the trees say like 4ft back and forth but still keeping them 8 ft apart? Do you have any pictures so I could get a better idea of what your talking about?

    Maybe I'm over thinking this but I want to make sure I plant them properly before getting any more in.

  • greenhaven
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, I do mean, more or less, staggering, but maybe slightly more randomly...like not bringing along your tape measure and getting exactly 8 feet on center. Also, say you start planting at the east end and work west (just for ha-has). Instead of working systematically in one direction, maybe plant five tree but a couple different sizes (and/or species like mentioned above) a hundred feet down. Then the next time you plant five trees plant them together but much further down the line. Then maybe your next planting will be closer to the start again. Fill in the gaps as you go, mix your sizes and/or species, and you will have a screen with a much more natural feel and allows, like you said, for replacing lost plants without the whole shebang looking wonky.

    Yes, I learned those terms in school. :o)

    I hope this makes sense. I will try to sketch something on Paint, but I won't get points for professionalism. ;o)

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hey duke..

    welcome to GW.. and particularly.. the conifer forum

    i see you have the help of a large machine.. that always helps.. lol

    can i be frank ... [frank who you say.. lol] .. i think you are buying instant gratification on that size... and the cost is EXTREME.. over the size of you project.. especially since you arent looking to build there in the near future ...

    you are building.. in all essence.. a wind screen .. which by definition.. is soil conservation ... you ought to contact your county extension office.. or soil conservation district.. for a local.. ON SIGHT evaluation.. of what you are thinking about ...

    and you should understand.. that though it can be done now.. the most fail safe time.. to be planting.. would be in fall .. so you have plenty of time to plan this all out..

    i personally .. [frank and i] think you should be mail ordering bulk plants.. bare root ... in the one to 2 foot MAX! size.. they will establish faster.. and out grow your bigboxstore 4 to 6 footers.. in 5 years.. just less stress all around.. as linked above.. check musser.. among a few others ...

    and am i to understand.. on the satellite pic.. you own that field below the right/left road ... below the quarry .. if so.. i have no clue.. why you are getting so up close and personal about the power lines ... if you simply moved into the property.. 10 or 15 feet .. yes... stagger them ... then you wouldnt have wasted so much time typing all about it ... one thing is for sure in life.. the day after you are ultimately happy about it all.. the power company will come by and screw it up ... i think you are forgetting.. the trees blow int eh wind.. and if you are within 5 feet.. at 30 feet.. though they may not technically be hitting the line.. they might do so in storms...

    and they have an easement... and you should not.. in any manner.. plant in that easement.. as they have total control over it ...

    you remind me a lot of myself.. when i moved from 2/3 of an acre in the city.. to 5 acres in the country ... as in suburbia.. my first thought.. was to line the property line .. and then wisdom came.. and i realized that the neighbors were 500 feet away.. and the property line itself.. was irrelevant ... if you were to build a house ... on the bottom of that pic.. near that tree line.. you could have a forest between you and the property line.. and the line itself.. would be irrelevant ...

    also.. if snow plowing is an issue.. too close to the road can be a big problem ... along with salt issues ...

    and your county peeps can also offer suggestions for diversifying .... and in fact.. my soil conservation district .. offer smallish [1 to 2 foot] plants.. at proper planting time.. for something like a buck each ... make some calls.. and find out if there is such in PA ... see link

    below is a pic of my GG's .. which where 2 inch peat pots.. and 4 inch rooted pieces.. 10 years ago ... i just dont understand.. why you would want to pay 35$ each ... as i think mine were about fitty cents each ... you say you wont be there any time soon.. so go cheaper ... smaller.. easier to plant ... and the whole project could be done this fall ... and note the garage behind the second pic.. its 15 feet to my GG ... i am dealing with hiding the neighbor.. but i am not kissing the property line ... so in this case.. do as i say.. and this time.. actually as i did.. lol. .. and note.. i did not go straight down the line ... its a big sweeping curve ... just think about the fact.. that there are no straight lines in nature.. so try to stop thinking about the straight property lien ...

    and the pro's in tree planting [the forestry peeps i mean.. not landscapers].. would be doing small.. and using a tree planting bar [whats the right term] ... no tilling.. no amending.. no watering.. etc ... and they could probably plant a couple hundred a day ... [if you cant find out about this in the conifer forum.. you might want to try the tree forum.. as there are some hardcore.. forestry types over there.. who dont 'do' these foo foo named cultivars.. lol .. conifers are a type of tree]

    well the coffee buzz is hitting real hard.. and i am losing focus.. lol ... will report back.. if anything else comes to mind ...

    one other thing .. you might want to camp out there for a while.. and find out about the noise level of the plant across the street ...

    good luck

    ken

    ps: and i will yell .. INSIST ON SINGLE LEADER PLANTS ... or make them such.. ask if you dont know what that means ...

    {{gwi:326682}}
    {{gwi:326683}}

    Here is a link that might be useful: link

  • gardener365
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Duke,

    6" rooted cuttings will be 4 feet tall in 4 years. I'll supply you with a website for purchasing these at dirt cheap prices. You'll need to water them often and after two years, you'll need to water during drought/heat spells, occasionally.

    I'd suggest you go back 12 or more feet and begin your first line and that you space at 6' intervals. A double line will ensure a tight knit screen, i.e.

    X X X X X X X
    a X X X X X X

    Best Regards,

    Dax

    Here is a link that might be useful: Rens Nursery

  • duke90
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was looking at it too systematically. I have a better idea of what I should be doing now.. planting different species, smaller, and in more natural clusters... My family and I do own the field beyond the road and the woods beyond what the pic shows. There's actually two buildings set back in the woods off to the right. Ive stayed up there before and the noise level isn't an issue. There are houses closer to the quarry.. It was actually my grandfather's property so Ive spent a lot of time up there through the years. I'm just looking ahead into the future and the idea of a privacy screen popped into my head a few months ago. Thanks for all the input everyone.

  • duke90
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi everyone,

    Since I last posted, I planted smaller 2.5 ft GG's with 8 ft spacing staggered 4 ft apart. I added about 2 in. of mulch around each tree. As of now, in addition to the 4 larger trees shown in the picture above, I have 47 smaller trees planted. The most recent planting was about a week and a half ago. My question is - should I be doing any type of prep work before winter comes? It does get pretty nasty up here in the winter. The trees are 29 ft from the road with a hedge barrier blocking them (I'll take the hedges out once the trees get time to mature.) I've heard that people wrap strips of burlap around the tree leaving some gaps in between the strips. I'm wondering if I should do that as well as add bamboo stakes?

    What do you guys think?

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    quit worrying????

    come on.. you live in z6 ... you dont know what a nasty winter is ...

    are they all single leader??? ... if so .. no need to tie nor stake nor nothing ...

    if they bend in snow load.. we will put a little stake on them in spring ... but most wont need it. they will straighten ...

    as with any numerically large project.. dream for total success.. but dont freak out if you lose one or two ..

    i see the tire tracks from you lawn tractor [???] ... i dont want to hear about a weed whip anywhere near these things ... i would kill all the lawn between trees ... with roundup [there are tricks to make it very easy] ... maintaining the mulch rings for about 3 years.. then free range ...

    the alternative.. is to kill a 2 foot ring around each plant.. and maybe leave the rest to go native ... they woulnt mind living in a savannah ...

    wasnt working with the smaller stock.. just so much easier than the larger ones??? .. not to mention price ... did you happen to work power tools into planting these smaller ones .. lol ...

    note on my pix .. way above.. no nothing in between plants.. and that included when they were 6 inches tall ... though at that time.. the bare stripe was 2 foot wide .. easing mowing ... but at that age.. they had drip irrigation for 2 years ...

    once they have grown.. i am not sure why you would bother removing the scrub behind.. you wont see it.. unless you just want the excercize ...

    thx for the followup

    ken

  • thetman
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    just an FYI-but do you have deer or rabbits hanging around? seems like a tempting treat in the upcoming months. I know in my area the deer usually don't touch the green giants- but something so small it could happen. I have put up burlap around smaller plantings (not touching the trees)for the first season. I have a few I will probably protect this year too-seems like you would need a good amount though for all those plantings.

  • duke90
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @ ken Ok I'll stake in the Spring if necessary.

    Those tracks are from a car but my father does use a zero turning radius mower to cut in between. It's probably better if I killed the grass though .. what's the problem with a a few blades hitting the tree? Are you thinking I'll get grass growing in the mulch beds? If I use roundup, do you think I could I risk harming the trees if some gets on the tree, even overspray?

    @thetman - I'll have to look into protecting them for that reason bc they're small.. deer could bother them.

    I'll keep you updated on the progress

    Thanks

  • wisconsitom
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey Duke, getting "some" Roundup on your trees will most definitely harm them, especially if some happens to mean quite a bit! But it's very easy to learn how to spray with a backpack sprayer carefully and right around landscape plants. Watch the weather (Avoid windy days), use moderate pressure, don't keep the trigger depressed while you swat that mosquito that landed on your ear, don't keep spraying while that pretty girl goes by.......get the picture? Just be attentive and deliberate with your spraying. I've done tons of it, maybe megatons.

    +oM

  • duke90
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'll try that out. Thanks!

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    use moderate pressure

    ==>>> i would go as far as saying LOW pressure..

    practice with water on the driveway.. pump just enough times for it to start coming out.. adjust tip pressure.. and tank pressure ... until you CAN SEE DROPS ... [e.g. it takes about 25 pumps.. in my tank to get the pressure i need to start ... practice ...]

    gravity makes drops fall to the earth ...

    this isnt french perfume.. [nor tim taylor.. more power] .. do NOT atomize it ... mist drifts in the wind ...

    and dont go anal.. and try to do it in one perfect job.. that is when i screw up ...

    lay out your line.. shoot for about 75% ... when it starts to yellow in a week or so.. start getting more precise ... but only work as long as your concentration is good.. if you start to get tired.. just come back some other day ... [i use a hose.. and put the tip on the hose.. facing into the bed.. and just walk down the line ....]

    the roundup.. actually i use generic.. will store in the tank for a week or two ...

    ken

  • ksc36
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Make sure you get the Roundup Pro concentrate (or generic stuff). I got a 2.5 gallon jug shipped for $80 which makes over 200 gallons.

  • hlechat
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Am I glad to have found this thread!

    Tell us more about 'Single Leader".
    I imagine it is akin to getting one trunk, on a tree...

    From Musser, can you specify this?

    Or from any mail order?

    Is there a list of mail order firms you recommend, or say to avoid?

    I like all the discussion on this thread.
    I, too, am looking for privacy, and am avoiding power lines. Not an easy combo. LOL

    Thanks for the sane and thorough discussion.

    p.s. on Roundup, can use a piece of cardboard to shield, as well, though the 'low pressure/take your time' philosophy works for me, as well.

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hey.. some tricky wording here ...

    you demand such from your seller ... and they do the best they can ... and size matters.. if you are buying cheap 6 inchers.. like i did.. dont argue about it.. just prune them down.. and 'stick' the cuttings in a humidity chamber.. and with a little luck and knowledge.. you can get some to root into plants.. [new post on that if you wish] ... but if you are investing in expensive larger stock [it not worth going any bigger than 3 footers IMHO] .. your seller ought to do you right ... if not.. find another ... [which means if you need 100 .. you might not want to jump head first into trusting a stranger/seller on your first order] ..

    and in your zone .. there are two planting periods this coming season.. early april.. and early october .. so you have two purchasing times.. [where are you more specifically?] ...

    and if a few get thru the process .. you cut off the duplicate leaders .. its just not a big deal ....

    one dominant vertical leader per root mass ... is another way to say it ... when there is more than one.. it becomes a snow load issue ...

    i got mine from botonyshop.com 12 years ago .. i dont know their current status as to value and quality...

    never forget.. two years of PROPER AFTERCARE is the most important variable... a little pruning down the road is NO BIG DEAL ....

    i would suggest you start your own post.. should you wish to go into this in any depth.. and title it so others can find it easily ... actually this title is pretty good.. jsut add something like 'Part 2' .. and link back to this one.. and we ought to be building a great base of knowledge ... you did check the box so these replies are coming to your inbox, i hope ...

    good luck

    ken

  • in ny zone5
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In respect to salt spray, roads here in zone 5 now have a grey cover and a grey dust cloud over them from salt. Since bridges have also that salt cover, the river underneath is icefree. So salt seems to reach trees far away from a road.
    Bernd

  • duke90
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey everyone, so it's May 1st and this is a picture of what my trees look like. I'm afraid they may have died from the winter and cold wind coming across the field. Does anyone think there are hopes for shedding and turning green again or do you think they're done for? Nothing has really bloomed yet up here.. as you can see by the hedges in the background.

    If they're done for, I don't know what else I could have done... They all look like this and the first set I planted was around the beginning of June last summer so I think they had plenty of time to settle in before winter. I noticed around last October that they were starting to turn orange even before winter set in. These GG's are from three different places (5 footers from home depot, 5 three footers from a local nursery, and the remainder approx 2 footers from a nursery in Fairhope, Alabama and they all have the same problem with the small trees having been hit the hardest.

    I have watered them once a week until the frost hit last winter but haven't started watering them yet, since it's been raining at least once a week and the ground has been moist. I'm wondering if I should put a fertilizer on them, like Holly Tone? Miracle grow? (A local nursery last summer suggested to use holly tone on GGs).

    This post was edited by duke90 on Wed, May 1, 13 at 0:51

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sorry, I've got bad bad news. I've just skimmed this thread but you got a fair amount of good advice here. Maybe you should re-read it.

    They are almost certainly all dead. A few could come back with nursing but it's almost like why bother. They aren't Keteleeria or something. Though Ken's advice to get smaller plants was good, it could have been somewhat penny wise pound foolish if (and it's a big if...) a 3' container grown plant would have been a little more able to fend for itself against the wind. But then, if you'd lost those, that would have been a lot more money down the drain. It wasn't a cold winter and I'm a little surprised those had such a hard time.

    I've gone back & forth on whether Wilt-Pruf truly worthwhile. I'm probably Ken, Greehaven, Tornado, etc. are all so correct about having a mix of species and a stochastic pattern. It will look so much better in 20 years when everything is grown up. This guy has reasonably priced bare root plants for Christmas tree use, but _some_ not all of his items would be useful to you. If you want to order from him, hurry up and do it. (btw, he is willing to send From him you could order:
    Nordmann Fir
    Picea abies
    "Oriental" Spruce - actually from Eastern Europe
    a few Eastern White Pines
    a few California incense cedars - worth trying
    a few eastern red cedars, as long as they aren't forbidden in your area.
    a few American hollies

    and right there you have a nice mix of textures, winter colors, etc. You don't need everything to be fast growing because you're only 21 and haven't even built the house yet.

    Don't order hemlocks. You will have to get Green Giants somewhere else but small ones are widely available.

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    btw:
    I planted smaller 2.5 ft GG's with 8 ft spacing staggered 4 ft apart.

    Still too close IMHO. And do you really want a straight green wall in 20 years or something that looks like a narrow natural evergreen forest?

    If you're ordering -anything- from Alabama and planting it in NE PA, you should be planting it in spring and giving it a full season to grow into the soil. I miss the chronology but maybe you planted these in fall and that was the problem. Also once a week is fine at first, as summer progresses you want to slowly dial that back, even for something bare root. At least in a place w/fairly moderate summers like NE PA. By fall you should only have to be watering plants like this (they aren't some dainty Asian broad leaved evergreen) every 2 weeks, but, then, it should be raining that often, too. Do that, spray everything w/wiltpruf on the last warm day of November...and you should have better "luck" next time.

    Here's a tip about weeds for a large planting like this. Buy a 3' wide roll of landscape fabric, cut in into 18"X18" sections, lay those around each plant and mulch them. Should be very economical. (surely you have a way to get cheap/free mulch) The plants I see in these pictures will have too much competition from the nearby grass and trying to close spray w/roundup is fraught with risk. PRE-SPRAY the grass where you intend to plant w/roundup, too kill it off w/o killing the plant. Then with the barrier you won't have a problem of grass encroaching.

    This post was edited by davidrt28 on Wed, May 1, 13 at 6:44

  • katob Z6ish, NE Pa
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Other than planting a different species, I'm not sure if there's much you could have done to avoid this. It does look like the spray off the road caused the die back..... Do the bigger plantings look like they might survive at least, or do they look just as bad?
    I live closer to the valley but on a hilltop so we also get the winds, even with late planting I've never seen anything like that on my green giants... and I wouldn't call your June planting of containerized stock late. It's possible they treat your road more heavily because it's close to the 380 bridge? Take a look at the evergreens growing alongside 380, the pines are yellowing and dropping needles now from the spray but the spruce seem fine..... I never noticed any arborvitaes. Maybe you want to try a couple spruce and see how they do?

  • tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Might have been salt spray. I wouldn't rule it out. Cars can generate a fine mist driving by and any breeze, even that generated by 40 mph cars, could send salt onto them.

    tj

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hhhmmm. Of course, we don't use as much salt on the roads down here, but I feel like I've driven around suburban Balto., DC & Philly and not noticed that evergreen plants 25 feet from a country road are dying. That would be one heck of a mist.

    OK if they were planted in June, I'm a at a loss to explain what happened. You didn't fertilize them right? Maybe a salt truck went by whose spreader was totally out of adjustment or something. I think of all those dorky "welcome to our development" signs in suburbia that are 10 ft. from the road and always planted in yews. That are not dead. There must be millions of Thujas planted by mailboxes too. To act as mailbox foundation shrubs LOL.

    This post was edited by davidrt28 on Wed, May 1, 13 at 20:44

  • tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ..."I feel like I've driven around suburban Balto., DC & Philly and not noticed that evergreen plants 25 feet from a country road are dying..."

    Not all conifers, just some.

    tj

    Here is a link that might be useful: Singed from salt

  • duke90
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for all of the advice guys.

    @ davidrt28 - thanks for the advice and ordering info

    @ kato_b , tsugajunkie - the larger 5 gallon plants don't look as bad. there is still some green, but they don't look that great. I actually started planting the smaller trees further back from the road because I was worried about the salt spray. I think they're around 28ft from the road and have those hedges in between the road and small trees. I thought that would have been enough protection... also before they even started salting last fall, they were starting to turn orangish.

    @ davidrt28 - nope.. I didn't fertilize them

    @ tsugajunkie - thanks for that link, I may have to look into a different species

    what a discouragement ... it would have been nice to see the majority survive after all the time and money I put into the project

    I'm thinking the best thing to do is look for several species that's resistant to salt spray and add a mix of trees

    This post was edited by duke90 on Thu, May 2, 13 at 0:53

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    BTW, it seems the state of PA would have good agricultural/horticultural extension. It's possible that even in this era, they could do some free or low cost test on the dead plants to see if salt killed them.

  • bengz6westmd
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I didn't read every response, but you must consider those power lines. Eventually GGs will get up that high, and then at the mercy of the power-line trimming crews if they're too close..

  • trovesoftrilliums
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    How did they look going into winter? Did you all have a hit dry summer? We did here in IA and I am seeing plenty of dead shrubs this spring.

  • duke90
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    They didn't look the greatest going into winter. I'd say around October, some parts of the trees started to turn bright orangish which I thought was odd. I did water them once a week if it didn't rain.

    I actually trimmed all of the dead off the trees this past weekend so I'll see how they come back. There were about three that were completely dead, but everything else had a little green on them still. I guess we'll see...

  • chjch
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    How is this going? I have staggered planting in a semi circle around my property in MA with 59 GG (so far). I planted them 10- 12' apart in each row. The more recent ones I've been planting are 3'-4' tall and I did 10' spaced planting with the rows 8' -9' apart so I could have each planting 10' from any others. I purchased smaller ones like yours mail order and put them in the pots that the 3'-4' formerly occupied. The babies are growing well but are a bit yellow.