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ospreynn

Is this the northernmost Cedrus deodara in cultivation

ospreynn
10 years ago

I've been meaning to post some of my pics I took last year from my trip... this is a pic of a Cedrus deodara growing in Bergen, Norway... if I recall well, it was over 4 m tall... not the pretties specimen, but alive

Comments (21)

  • pineresin
    10 years ago

    Don't know of any further north myself, but I'd not be surprised if there were a few in other towns even further up the west coast of Norway, e.g. Kristiansund, Trondheim.

    Also worth a search in Torshavn (Faeroes) and Reykjavik (Iceland).

    Resin

  • ospreynn
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    I didn't see any in Trondheim...... but I was surprise to see them growing in Norway..... even more that it was Bergen.. perhaps the rainiest city in Europe...
    I have also seen them being tortured in disney world (Orlando, FL)....

    osprey

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    10 years ago

    The elevations where C. deodara occurs aren't very hot in summer anyhow. It's the plants growing in the Eastern US that are making an adaptation, not the ones in western Europe.

    Here is a link that might be useful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimla

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    10 years ago

    (edit: talking about Shimla)
    It's funny that there's a picture of people ice skating. Must take a very cold winter in a place with an average seasonal low of 36F to get ice thick enough for that. All time record low appears to be only 15F which would indicate the climate no worse than 9a. I wonder where else in the world that is zone 9a has ever had ice thick enough for skating. Maybe coastal Scotland during some of the coldest winters ever? Somewhere in Chile perhaps?

    The crazy Dutch wait for years and years to hold their ice skating race, I forget what it's called. But it's only about once every 20 years they can do it these days. I think all of Amsterdam is zn 8.

    This post was edited by davidrt28 on Mon, Jun 3, 13 at 19:26

  • liopleurodon
    10 years ago

    David, I think the name of that ice skating race is the "Elfstedentocht" or in English something like "Eleven cities tour" or so.

    Resin, I went to Iceland (tour around the island, and I've also stayed a couple of days in Reykjavik) previous summer and I don't recall having seen any C. deodara there.
    The year before I went to Norway, southernmost I've been there was Mo I Rana and northernmost was the northern tip of the VesterÃÂ¥len and I didn't see any C. deodara there either (it's more northern than Trondheim though).

  • salicaceae
    10 years ago

    I doubt there are any in Reykjavik - I was there a few years ago and didn't see any plants capable of temps lower than USDA Zone 6 here. It can get quite cold there.

    Osprey - the grow quite well in northern Florida (And Orlando too in some cases - the ones at Disney were brought in big and suffered). There are two huge ones gracing the front of a post office down the road from me. There is also a large commercial grower nearby who only grows C. deodara...I saw one overwinter in Minnesota (it was 'Eisregen' I believe), but died the next winter.

  • barbaraincalif
    10 years ago

    Cedrus deodara is native to a region with mild wet summers and snow in the winter? I wrongly assumed they were from a mediterranean climate.

    Widely planted in California, they are considered both heat and drought tolerant. Often growing with little supplemental irrigation and 20 inches of rain a year, which occurs in the winter months.

    Another example of their adaptability or does zone pushing take many forms?

    Barbara

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    10 years ago

    Yes, it seems like a highly adaptable species. There aren't many conifers that grow in both California and Florida with minimum supplemental irrigation in the former.

    I think there are mountains west of the Kashmir proper where summer rainfall from the monsoon drops off very quickly and you're left with something like a Mediterranean climate; though only at rather high elevations. The low elevations are just deserts. Kabul is actually something like that:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabul

    Though I suspect you still have to go slightly east of there to find deodars.


    Here is a link that might be useful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabul

  • liopleurodon
    10 years ago

    According to This website C. deodara extents as far south as Quetta
    (the mountains just left and right next to it probably, so actual temperature may be a bit cooler and precipation a bit higher than those in the city) in Pakistan where the climate is much more Mediterranean than in the north-eastern part of its range.
    (Mostly winter precipation and way higher summer temperatures.) So the species seems to be very adaptable indeed.

    This post was edited by liopleurodon on Tue, Jun 4, 13 at 10:39

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    10 years ago

    Yes. They are native to the southern Hindu Kush, which definitely gets most of its precip. from melting winter snows. I think some of the hardiest collections eg. "Paktia" came from that area.

    Here is a link that might be useful: https://www.facebook.com/AfghanSocietyOfNaturalForest/posts/523524571037255

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    10 years ago

    Ah you beat me to it, liopleurodon. But, yeah, not only does the precip. change to winter only, the summer temps. goes way up. In fact it's kinda amazing how an elevation that brings you mild summer temps. in the Himalayas doesn't over towards Pakistan; I guess it's the same issue that came up in the trees forum regarding the eastern US mountains versus the high plains of the western US. The top of Mount Rogers, VA, at 5000 ft. would be frigid and snowy throughout winter, and very cool in summer; Denver, CO is warm in summer and is reasonably warm during the day in winter.

    This post was edited by davidrt28 on Sat, Jun 22, 13 at 22:17

  • Embothrium
    10 years ago

    Trees have no adaptability, if a specimen lives somewhere it's because it came with an inherent ability to do so.

    During the 1990 winter here in the Seattle area many long-established Himalayan cedars were scorched, because it got down to or below around 10 degrees F. in many places (out away from the immediate vicinity of Puget Sound it would have been quite a bit below, with one party I talked to claiming 2 degrees F. even within Seattle, near the Sound). Tall coast redwoods, Oregon myrtles etc. were also browned.

  • coniferjoy
    10 years ago

    "The crazy Dutch wait for years and years to hold their ice skating race, I forget what it's called..."

    Yup, that's the Eleven Cities Tour.
    The last one was in 1997, January 4th.

    Here is a link that might be useful: It's history

  • davidrt28 (zone 7)
    10 years ago

    Thank you coniferjoy. I meant crazy in the sense of "those crazily optimistic, ice-skating loving Dutchmen." Most cultures would have just given up on their 11 city race, with the onslaught of warm winters. But not the Dutch, who eeeecht out an entire country from a marsh!

    BBoy, nobody is implying a single plant, Lamarckianishly "adapts" to cold winter. "I've had that coconut in a cold room for a couple years. It should be zone 9 hardy by now." LMAO. A whole population though can tend to conserve a genotype whose phenotype imparts some resistance to cold conditions. That is what we would consider adaptability. I think you're really out on a limb here because I'm sure if I go look through the body of academic horticultural literature, I'll find the term used this way. I'm sure Jacobson and Dirr must use it, somewhere.
    There are even cases where adaptation to one thing imparts resistance to something else or vice versa. If you look at a plant like Fuchsia regia, there is no way it should be fully zn 7 hardy. Yet it is. In my former, colder garden, it survived very cold winters right down to 0F with the soil frozen solid for inches. The area it comes from is ridiculously mild, having light frosts in winter but record lows barely worse than the Bay area. Much less of a chance of prolonged freezing than anywhere in the CONUS besides maybe coastal SoCal & SoFL. So why is it so hardy? Well, it grows roots down to almost 12" in one season. Why would a plant from such a mild, rainy place do that? I can only think of all those wierd South American animals. (some of may now be extinct from that part of Brazil) Perhaps this is a way to avoid damage from creatures that dig for things nearby like grubs or tubers, and as a byproduct it causes the plant to be adapted to very cold winters. Or maybe just a way to outgrow other plants. Point is, it doesn't grow 12" roots to survive cold in its native habitat, that's for sure. But that allows it adapt as a species (not an ind.) to cold winters.

  • coniferjoy
    10 years ago

    David, I know what you mean by 'the crazy Dutch".
    So, no hard feelings ;0)

  • ospreynn
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Interesting stuff here.... they seem to love it here, of course, they require additional water....

    osprey

  • scotjute Z8
    10 years ago

    I have witnessed the tops die out of several specimens down here. Assumed it was the cold, perhaps it was something else. Glad to see they can actually live further north.
    What is the known pH soil they can tolerate? Planted a couple in soil of 7.5 pH several years ago and they both eventually died after a couple of years.

  • pineresin
    10 years ago

    "I have witnessed the tops die out of several specimens down here. Assumed it was the cold, perhaps it was something else"

    Unlikely to be cold damage in zone 8. Given the news reports of severe droughts in Texas in recent years, I'd guess drought is a more likely cause.

    Resin

  • Embothrium
    10 years ago

    Seattle is USDA 8 and as I remember it some of the cedars even died after the 1990 cold - there is clearly a range of hardiness within this species that may be fairly wide.

  • ospreynn
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    I think I mentioned this before, but my deodars looked like larches in winter two years ago after -10F (-23C)... they were back on track by June

  • nothotsuga
    10 years ago

    During the 1990 winter here in the Seattle area many long-established Himalayan cedars were scorched, because it got down to or below around 10 degrees F. in many places
    Frost is not the only explanation. In the South of France trees submitted to -13*C if not lower did not suffer at all during a two weeks frost period. To be taken into account : origin of the seeds, exposure, wind, quality of the soil, variation and duration of the cold, etc. A frost in March is not the same as one in January for instance. And there is some kind of adaptation to local conditions.

    This post was edited by nothotsuga on Sat, Jun 8, 13 at 12:44

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