Thanks! Just saw this book on Saturday for the first time (the 2007 edition) and was planning to buy it - will look for new one.

Sara

"gray pine is no longer a California endemic,"

I've not seen any convincing evidence to suggest that it isn't still a CA endemic. The verified specimens reported from OR are all in situations where they could easily be human introductions. Ditto for many of the other recent claims for e.g. P. balfouriana and some Cupressus spp. in Oregon.

Hope that Nootka Cypress is placed in Cupressus, rather than any of those poorly-supported genus splits ;-)

Resin

The first question on my mind is where nootka was placed.? I too didn't understand the gray pine removal?

Dax

Chamaecyparis nootkatensis is now Cupressus nootkatensis. Seems to make sense.

With regard to Alaska-cedar, I maintain it in Chamaecyparis along with Port Orford cedar, however I mention proposals to put it in Cupressus, Hesperocyparis, Callitropsis and Xanthocyparis. I still see this as a fluid situation, and I am not dogmatic about cypressy issues.

As for the endemism of Pinus sabiniana, I am persuaded by the 1857 report by J. S. Newberry (p.40, Report upon the botany of the route, in Reports of Explorations and Surveys to ascertain the most practicable and economical route for a railroad from the Mississippi River to the Pacific Ocean, 1854-5), in which he says the pine was found as far north as Fort Lane, Oregon, in what is now Jackson County. He discusses the species at length and illustrates it with a closed cone that was 27 cm long with hooked scales ("sometimes as large as one's head") and with a trunk " that divides into spreading branches". I just don't see how this report can be rebutted.

Curious . . . if that 1857 Newberry report is so convincing, why has it been rejected by every other author for the last 150 years??

It's not as if it were an obscure publication overlooked by other authors, containing as it does the formal description of some well-known species like Quercus kelloggii.

Resin

Excuse my true lack of education as I am self-taught everything hort related... was Pinus sabiniana dispersed by birds (& humans) into California, from Oregon?

This map shows how far south it has made its way in California, additionally, the stellar & scrub jay are mentioned as seed carriers along with the corresponding text. The stellar jay being the 'furthest' carrier evolutionarily-speaking.

Dax

I haven't seen any studies of seed dispersal in gray pine. In Conifers of California I suggest gray squirrels and scrub jays, but that is a guess. Steller's jays are unlikely, being a higher-elevation creature than scrub jays which are often associated with the pine. There is no reason to think the pine was distributed from Oregon into California.

Then why is Pinus sabiniana not an endemic species to California? Being 'native' suggests to "me-only" that it is. That's where I lost track of this conversation. I'd like to understand that for future consideration.

Thanks, Ron:

Dax

Called "endemic" on this page, which shows it being found natively only in California.

Here is a link that might be useful: Silvics Manual - Volume 1 - Pinus sabiniana

"Then why is Pinus sabiniana not an endemic species to California? Being 'native' suggests to "me-only" that it is"

Native to California means that it occurs naturally there, but may also occur naturally in other places.

Endemic to California means that it occurs naturally there, and only there, not anywhere else.

Resin