The green of the second has recently paled quite noticeably though the candles are looking ok, what could be the issue? No environmental differences, the growing medium may slightly differ but not significantly.

I repotted it but the roots were not very extensive, noted at the time. Now the yellow seems to be on the march, a few needles dropped and the new growth/bud growth is still in limbo. I'm prepared to wait it out like others that went from similar condition loss and stasis to death but could I be worrying too soon? Taken today (windy conditions)

The thing is that most needle conifers are growing on mountain hills with a little bit of soil and most of the time the enviroment is more dry then moisty.
We must try to create the same enviroment in our pots otherwise it's a waste of your investments because the plants will die soner or later!

The Abies needle colour is slowly getting a pale colour because of a lack of fertilizer.
Next year in Spring you've to give it a controled coated fertilizer like Osmocote which will come free slowly during the year.
Ask your gardencentre for more info.

Clay 40% / peat 20% / ericaceous peat 20% / mixed agg. (grit sand thru pea and bean sized) 20%

If you suggest how those % should be altered I'll get right on it.

40% clay is way to much, your first pic shows us clearly that your soil fills up close which is the cause that the roots will die because of suffocation.
Air in the soil is the key for a healthy plant.
Repot your plants now so they can make new roots before winter will start and don't forget the coated controled fertilizer in Spring next year.

Why don't you visit a local nursery to some good soil there?
A nurseryman does have the knowledge which soil is good for container plants.
Good luck!

Thanks.

Coniferophytus,

I could try that yes, thanks.

Sedum cauticola 'Coca Cola'

As I read this Thread, my eye immediately went to that heavy potting mix.
But I see that Edwin and others mentioned the lack of aeration and compaction.

My conifers are grown in a mix that is 70 percent fir Bark, 15 percent Perlite,
and 15 percent Peat (or any peat-based potting mix/compost). To this mix,
I add 1 Tablespoon Dolomitic Garden Lime per gallon of soil. Never a problem,
and my plants have phenomenal root-growth.

Often, I'll omit the peat entirely and just include durable, water-retentive grit,
such as Perlite, Pumice, Turface, bonsai gravel, et cetera.

This is the mix my Cryptomeria grow in:

And this is a mix for some maples:

Josh

Severn, good luck with getting your little ones back on track. Sure it will be no time before they are back in the saddle.

Brightside am I :)

Particle size is also key to drainage. For plants that I intend to keep in containers,
I screen and rinse my ingredients. Fir bark is passed over a 1/4 inch screen and a 1/16 inch screen,
to remove the excessively large particles as well as the fine bark dust. Turface, Pumice, and Perlite
are also passed over a 1/16 inch screen. Basically, I want particles that are in the 1/16 - 1/4 inch range.

In a very humid or rainy environment, you'll want to decrease the organic component in your mix.
What I mix for my dry California climate will necessarily differ from the optimal mix in your climate,
so tinker with the ratios.

Also, a great benefit of using a loose mix is that it makes re-potting and bare-rooting a breeze.
Much easier to prune roots for bonsai, and much easier to access the roots when planting trees in the ground.
There's less trauma to the roots, and so the trees seem to establish themselves sooner (in my experience).

When you transition your conifers, make sure to remove all the old soil, especially if it's a hard ball
of clay at the heart of the root-system. When re-potting, fill all the spaces around the roots. I use
a chopstick or a kabob skewer, and I work slowly, watering as I go.

Josh

Josh

And good luck sourcing ingredients. Bark always seems the most difficult to find.
Optimally, you'll want two grades of bark: an uncomposted bark that is structurally durable
for long-lasting (2 - 3 year) mixes; and a partially composted bark that will hold more
moisture for summer/seasonal growing (1 - 2 years only).

I've learned about container soils primarily from Al (Tapla) at Garden Web.
His two mixes are a perfect starting point for most growers, and require only slight
modification (in extremely hot areas, for example). The long-term mix is called Gritty Mix,
and the shorter-term mix is called the 5-1-1 (5 parts bark, 1 part perlite, 1 part peat).
I'm going to link the latest Thread, which is now on its fourteenth posting:
Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention

And here's a link to a Thread on the re-potting of my Cryptomeria japonica 'Tansu.'
Pics of the bare-rooting, root-pruning, re-potting, and full recovery:
Cryptomeria re-potting (pics)

Josh

I would like to share how easy my mix is and it will work for anyone/anywhere. 50-60%perlite to peat moss. I've learned that adding organic fertilizers and/or compost attract vermin so I now fertilize with mir-acid. A lot of growers use time-released-fertilizer. And in fact a buddy of mine uses the same perlite to peat with osmocote, that's it, period, easy as that.

I root in 90%perlite to 10% peat. You can never use too much perlite no matter what you're doing with container gardening and conifers imo. I much prefer 60-70% perlite to peat than 50/50 but 50/50 will do the job just fine.

Dax

Well I went round a couple of places and bought some 'Super Fine' bark and purlite.

I've settled on a basic 6/1/1/2 bark/eric.peat/peat/purlite mix. The bark is very fine shreds so not as good as your wonderful bark Josh but that may be beyond reach or expense here. I can adjust accordingly where possible. Nothing is set in stone.

The 'Smidt' needed a major root untangle as one root had wrapped around the original 9cm pot area and was about 3 feet long! It's now in the new mix so hopefully a further decline will be arrested.

BUT, on emptying the old mix out - and we've had a LOT of persistent rain this month, it was damp but not wet (a handful crumbled like sandy loam, no clumping) and certainly not saturated. Just some water right at the soil to plastic interface at the bottom. Wouldn't now be the exact time to expect a perch?

Yours,

Confused.

Honestly, I don't tolerate any perched water in my containers....
but that's probably a lot easier for me in a dry climate and with course ingredients.
However, even after months of winter rain, I can tilt my containers and very very little
water drains out (if any).

In your case, even the shredded bark is superior to peat moss of the same particle size.
The reason being that peat moss is a pre-collapsed particle with no nutrient value.
Bark, though fine-textured, at least has some structure. Given the fine texture,
perhaps reduce to 5 parts bark, with an extra part of Perlite.

Now that the roots are in order, I think the tree will do much better.
Also, after watering, tilt your containers a good 45 degrees and observe if water
drains out - this water, if present, was the perched water. Another trick to get
around retentive soils is to stick a "wick" into the drain hole to allow excess water to travel
down the wick and out the container, thus eliminating perched water. None of these tricks,
of course, will take the place of a properly made soil.

Josh

Mix MK.I

I read the link to the container soil thread, wow, just so enlightening. A must-read.

Noted on what you say about tilting and the wick, thanks.

In favour is the fact that the pot now weighs less than half the back breaking amount it did and it's the best for the plant, no finger crossing. On the negative side it looks a little unnatural compared to clay soil and the plant isn't held so firmly do you have much problem with wind?

I was worried about the "super fine" description, but that doesn't look bad at all.
I agree with you about the Perlite....and most of us have the same complaint about the unnatural
look (as well the fact that it "floats"). A thin layer of sifted bark/mulch can make a good
top-dressing to obscure the Perlite.

After re-potting, I'll sometimes use a few stones to support the trunk.
This will help the roots colonize the new potting mix sooner. If you were staging
your plants for bonsai, you'd actually wire them to the rim of the pot for maximum support.
But I don't find that necessary. Despite the loose feel of the mix, the roots
will anchor nicely; and, as long as the mix stays moist, it should have enough
weight to keep from tipping.

Josh

Now that the drainage and aeration are down it just leaves the added nutrients.

Josh - I add 1 Tablespoon Dolomitic Garden Lime per gallon of soil To raise the pH value? Forgive crass simplicity of mind but that's not for conifers right?

Dax ...so I now fertilize with mir-acid. A lot of growers use time-released-fertilizer

Ken says never to fertilize but these spartan mixes would seem to merit an addition.

Dax, the mir-acid, any specific quantity you've settled on or per instructions? Btw, 90% Perlite would break my bank, unless you get bulk.

Ken says never to fertilize *a tree in the ground* ;-)
In a container, you must provide nutrients for your plants. I add Osmocote to the mix
for a cushion, but I also liquid fertilize with a product that contains all macro and micro nutrients.
When purchasing a fertilizer, look for one with an NPK ratio of 3:1:2 - this is the *ratio* at
which most plants actually use the NPK. Therefore, any 9-3-6, 12-4-8, or 24-8-16 fertilizer will
supply the nutrients in a proper ratio. I know that Miracle Grow offers a fertilizer like this.

When all's said and done, bark-based mixes are about the most economical out there.
(Especially considering what it would cost to replace dead trees!).

Josh

Josh,
Thanks again for the advice, we're bringing it in to land now. I've watered some basic liquid ericacious feed that I already had onto the three I've repotted so far in the new mix. That'll probably do for this side of dormancy right? Is it washed out quickly in these mixes? That's where clay was good for something, it holds nutrients well. Then a slow release season long fertilizer (checked for what you recommend) as buds expand in spring? You say you liquid feed on top of a slow release; how often in a season do you do that and how do you judge? That would seem to be where I could get it wrong and over fertilize.

You got it, Severn. In these mixes, the nutrients do flush readily. Slow-release fertilizers
typically don't last as long as advertized because of the thorough watering we do. I consider a
4-month slow-release to be just about used up in 3 months. I apply liquid fertilizer every 2 weeks
during the growing season; but there are some conifers that I fertilize weekly. If you have been
growing plants in containers without fertilizer, you'll be amazed at the increased vitality and growth.

How often or how much you fertilize really depends upon the plant, the current vitality level,
the size of the container, the type of soil mix, and how often one waters.

How many potted conifers do you tend, and how much time per week can you spend on them?

Josh

Pinus strobus grown in 95% coarse douglas fir bark.

Don't underestimate how much of a leap this is for the likes of me (pity them). Simple, yes, but not in a way that could have been guessed. Less is most definitely more.

Josh, I have about twenty five. All on one patio area and so a thorough watering is 20-30 minutes, less if I can simply drench them knowing the excess won't perch. I think it'll be a case of starting conservatively with the liquid feed on top of slow release and see if new growth is optimum. I have a lot this year whose new growth has not matched last years (in the nursery) we know why. Does that seem like a plan or is playing catch up leaving it too late?

Jth, the peat moss also lowers the pH from what I recall.
Like you, I have a few different plant varieties growing in pure/nearly pure Fir bark. I use a fine-grade,
however, which helps to hold a little more moisture than the medium or course-grade. Either way, pure bark
mixes do require more watering, especially as the plants mature and the roots colonize the media.

I'll investigate the use of Lime with pines.
I might omit the Lime for those trees in the future, since my fertilizer provides Calcium/Magnesium.
Another thing: when I fertilize, I often add white vinegar to my solution, which temporarily lowers
pH. I do this with Maples, Citrus, and Conifers. It also helps to eliminate salt build-up in less
often watered mixes, such as those for succulents.

Josh

Josh

I think then that simply the vigilance has to shift from the saturation to the dessication end of the root health spectrum. Water bills will be higher in droughts but hey.

I can't get a good enough photo for the info on the
other side of the container camera can't pick up on
it.

PS Never mind if you can't read it...these days the printing on some labels is so small, you need a microscope to read them! .

Tunilla, most products have a web-page devoted to the label....

Miracle Gro all purpose slow release package details

Looks to be a 17-9-11 (NPK). And doesn't seem to offer Calcium, which is typical for
most fertilizers.

Osmocote Plus, however, is a slow release formula that does include Calcium.

Josh

PS Most water supplies contain a fair amount of Calcium ,so there is usually no need to worry about this. Not so in soft water areas or when rainwater is used ,in wich case the addition of some Dolomitic limestone (Calcium-Magnesium carbonate) to the growing medium is recommended.
PS My 20 Eurocents -allowing for 'inflation' !