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jon_beard89

Nice wild pine in old gravel pit (?????)

Jon 6a SE MA
9 years ago

Could someone please identify these conifers that are growing in an pit that was dug out for cranberry bogs which were never built. The area is full of pines, but this type prefers or seems to be the only type that can tolerate the soil.

The bark is a rough texture. I apologize for the cellphone pictures and I can walk back there with a camera if more detail is needed.

Thanks,

Jon

I have transplanted a small one into a similar sandy soil area in my yard. I really like them.

Comments (51)

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    but this type prefers or seems to be the only type that can tolerate the soil.

    ==>> i dont know about this presumption ... did you do a study of the surrounding pines.. ?? .... are there more than one type???

    if all thats there is this one type of momma tree ... one might not be surprised what is seeding itself around ... eh/??

    and dont get me wrong.. you might be absolutely correct ... i am just wondering about your conclusion ...

    in other words... there might be reasons other than just soil

    BTW ... are all the trees about the same size ... counting whorls.. i wonder if they date back concurrent to when there was actually exposed soil .... then i would start wondering.. which momma was coning that year ... etc .... as such can be extremely variable .... year to year ... oh.. so many questions.. so little time ...

    thx for the pix.. a little brain candy

    ken

  • Jon 6a SE MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Off to get better pictures. Ken I walk my dog around the pit (maybe a mile and a half walk) about 4 times a day. There are White Pines and other species all around and far back into the 40 acre or so plot on higher ground. These are only in the sandiest, most barren portion of the pit bordering wet areas with cat tails and marsh grass.

    Be back soon with pictures of other pines that ring the pit and better shots of the pine(?) in question.

    Jon

  • Smivies (Ontario - 5b)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pitch Pine (P. rigida). It thrives in dry to almost wet sandy soils. It was annoyingly difficult to see in your photo but I'm pretty sure I spotted three needles to a bundle (Scot's is two, always two). Growth habit on the leader appears to be multinodal (typically branching on the annual growth and 1-3 growth whorls seasonally) as well...common to the 'yellow' pines.

  • bengz6westmd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Agree -- pitch pine. If given an opening (your gravel pit), it can colonize quickly.

    This post was edited by beng on Thu, Oct 30, 14 at 16:23

  • bengz6westmd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I see alot of tiny seedlings. Get one or several more -- you might want pollinated, viable cones for the seed-eating birds.

  • Jon 6a SE MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sorry, I had a lot of trouble downloading from the flash memory of my camera for some reason. It looks as if my question is answered, thank you all. I am posting this since I went through the trouble of going down there.

    Mature pines line the edge of the 'pit.

    Close up of the needles

    Close up of the base of the trunk.

    Another up on the slope a little way.

    Another trunk base.

    Another species. There are thousands of pines in the area. 40 acres privately owned, another 40 that is a bird sanctuary about a mile up there is a state park which is at least 75 Acres. The only thing bad about it is the deer.

    North side of the pit.

    Close up of another species.

    More different species on the ridge surrounding the pit.

    Access road along the proposed, but never built cranberry bog.

    Again, different speicies.

    ...and again different.

    Sorry for the photo overload. There are plenty of small seedlings that have self-seeded. There is no shortage of cones for birds. It is really nice to have something like this in my backyard. Some people may consider the Pitch Pine as invasive, but I really like the structure and may scoop up a few more.

    Thanks again,

    Jon

  • Jon 6a SE MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I did a little reading up on the pitch pine and it is said that fire is necessary to open the cones and for it to propagate similar to the Redwood which has the same need for occasional fires. Sometimes there are small fires around here and I suppose the open pit provides the same sort of environment as a burned out forest for it to thrive.

    You learn something new every day.

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    the open pit provides the same sort of environment as a burned out forest

    ==>>> huh???

    ken

  • Jon 6a SE MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It is open with no competition from other trees. I don't know for sure, but I can see no other reason for them being concentrated in the open pit area. The age of the more mature Pitch Pines seems to be close to coincidental with the pit being dug out for the cranberry bogs that didn't happen. I surmise that a fire in a grove of Pitch Pine nearby may have seeded the area which was bare sand from the excavation. There are new seedlings all over, but small fires pop up quite often around here.

    Jon

  • Smivies (Ontario - 5b)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "==>>> huh???"

    Fire = bare mineral soils for seedling establishment
    Newly excavated site = bare mineral soils for seedling establishment

    Pitch Pine does have serotinous cones that require heat to melt the resin and allow the cone to open. This is especially true in the Pine barrens but not every tree has serotinous cones 100% of the time. Some cones from some trees will open in late fall even in the absence of fire.

    In my area, the native Pitch Pine rarely produces serotinous cones and the majority open in late fall just like all the other local pine species.

  • Jon 6a SE MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    May be the case here as well. In any event I enjoy them. They grow in areas where other pines that have the same opportunity to, don't.

    ' Pitch pine/scrub oak communities are an open shrubland plant community that occurs on outwash sandplains. These communities, also called pine barrens'

    Here is a link that might be useful: Massachusetts Natural Community Fact Sheet Pitch Pine/Scrub Oak Communities

  • Embothrium
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The second species is Pinus strobus. One of the other kind had a poison oak/ivy plant near the base, I hope you were mindful of these while on the site.

  • edlincoln
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pitch pines don't all need fire to open their cones. Some do, some don't. It seems to be a trait some individuals have and others don't, like blue eyes.

    They often grow near the beach because they tolerate sand and salt better then other pines. If they got rid of the organic top soil and left sand, they might have had an edge over the white pines. If the cranberry bog was ever flooded with brackish water, that would also give them an advantage.

    Great tree if you want a privacy screen or wind break along a road whee they use a lot of road salt, or along the coast.

    I'm jealous. I spent a while trying to find some of those.

    Out of curiosity, what attracted you to them? They don't seem to be a popular ornamental tree.

    This post was edited by edlincoln on Fri, Oct 31, 14 at 13:25

  • Jon 6a SE MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    bboy, thanks for the tip. I will avoid the poison oak.

    edicoln. I have learned, besides what they are, that some have cones that produce with and without fire. The most successful locations have fires. I also learned that they thrive in barren sandy soils. the sand pit was ideal for them. They also like acid soil so salt may be tolerated by them it is not preferred. There is no possibility of salt here. I am 20 miles inland.

    It seems they populate sandy areas along with scrub oak that eventually edge them out and form oak groves; unless there is a fire which Pitch Pines can survive far better because of thick bark.

    As to what attracted me, I have lots of White and other Pines and I just like the rugged, twisted form that contrasts with the many other pines. I also think it fits well with the area I call 'The Ravine' in my backyard.

    Jon

  • bengz6westmd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    White and pitch pines are sometimes close neighbors in certain areas. If a site doesn't have or has lost its topsoil, pitch pine has a bit of an advantage.

    Jon, you're not the only one attracted to the rugged, more masculine look of the hard pines. One near perfect pitch pine & also a large Table Mountain pine were my favorite pines in the dozens of acres of woods surrounding my former place in mountainous VA. Below is a Table Mnt pine about as rugged as they get:

  • Jon 6a SE MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    beng, you just can't beat character like that.

  • bengz6westmd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pitch pine hybridizes w/loblolly pine to make "pitlolly" pine. Here's mine, which seems to favor its pitch pine parent w/the twisty branches and other characteristics:

  • edlincoln
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Most pines like acidic soil, and almost nothing *prefers* salt...some plants just prefer the lack of competition a little bit of salt provides. They tend to dominate in some coastal areas where white pines can't handle the salt or the sand.

    The two most salt and sand tolerant conifers in the northern areas of the East Coast of North America are pitch pine and eastern red cedar...and eastern red cedar is highly flammable. (But humans have been stopping forest fires and red cedar is spread by birds which drop it's seeds in median strips and abandoned farms, so it seems to be winning).

    There are some problems with beetles threatening pitch pine on the East Coast. (Those same beetles kill Austrian Pine even more, so if there are old healthy Austrian Pine in your area you are good)

    If grown in a garden setting on good soil and pampered, it may not take on the twisted form it is famous for...that is party the result of it growing in windy areas with bad soil. They can be big trees, they just seldom have the opportunity in the spots they tend to grow naturally. This is a pitch pine grown at an arboretum.

  • pineresin
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ditto to Pitch Pine for the original pic.

    Johnny's photo-essay shows a lot of Eastern White Pines as well as more Pitch Pines.

    Resin

  • Jon 6a SE MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    beng, great Pitlolly.

    Ed, I've tried Black Pines a couple of times with poor results (death each time). I just transplanted a small Pitch Pine and right now it is doing very well, but it looks like I should wait and see how it works out before putting energy into a few more. I'll check for beetles in the AM, when I do some research on what to look for. It is in very sandy soil in my spot, which doesn't seem be a deterrent, so I'll have to see if it matures nice and straight like your picture or nice and crooked. I won't live to see it get anywhere near as big as the arboretum tree.

    Resin, one picture shows a more pyramidal shape and is bushier than a White Pine (I believe) There are several different types around. When the snow flies the access 'road' is lined with pines and it is truly a winter wonderland along the 'road' / path which winds past the pit and over to a large pond that was to be used to irrigate the cranberry bogs that were never built. I'll have to share some pictures when the snow flies, it won't be long.

    Thanks all,

    Jon

  • lostpinejim
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here are some Pitch Pines you might like . . . . .

    Here is a link that might be useful: Pitch Pines of Hawksbill Mountain

  • Jon 6a SE MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jim,

    I'll never see specimens like that here or come close to the backdrop.

    I did go back to check on beetles. No camera as it is raining, but no signs of anything that compares to examples shown on websites. There are loads of seedlings and one or two footers. I will probably scout out two more and space them in a triangle with each 10-15 feet apart...future generations will appreciate and enjoy it.

    Jon

  • bengz6westmd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jim, thanks for the pics -- always enjoy the high-mountain sites. You could go from those "pygmy" pitch pines to the largest known ones in the mesic coves below.

  • mikebotann
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Beautiful pics, Jim!
    My kinda country for backpacking. I used to do a lot of it when I was younger and lived in the city and had the time.
    Mike

  • lostpinejim
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks guys, I'm glad you liked the pictures.

    Hawksbill Mountain is one of the most beautiful places I have ever seen, especially if you like pines. It's almost the equal of the Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest in the White Mountains of California, not in scale but definitely in natural beauty.

    The fascinating thing is that the Pygmy Pitch Pines grow within a rocks throw of full size Pitch Pines. This one is on the northeast slope just below the summit of the Hawksbill, less than 200 feet from the Pygmies.

    I don't know if it's the altitude and weather that causes the dwarfness or if they are a subspecies of Pinus rigida. The wind can be incredible on the Hawksbill, it's been reportedly clocked at 200 mph on Grandfather Mountain, just 20 miles away.

    The fact that the Pygmies are so different from the full size Pitch Pines and they grow so close together is a mystery to me.

    Jim

  • bengz6westmd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jim, just slight protection from the wind (your example just below the summit) can make a big difference on such a stressful site.

    Even on that just-below-summit tree, the prevailing wind direction is obvious from its form.

    Your top & middle pics show what looks like a moosewood maple on the bottom-left corner.

  • bengz6westmd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And here's a 6-yr old Table Mnt pine growing on my pampered lawn (not its usual habitat), making a dense and attractive specimen:

  • edlincoln
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    jonnyb023, the beetles leave lots of little holes and white pine pitch dripping down the trunk. More of a problem on older or stressed specimens then seedlings, I think. I believe it is the same thing as kills black pines, but the pitch pines are a bit more resistant. (Though not as resistant as white pines).

    Pitch pine can be used for pretty much all the purposes one would use Austrian pine, except that pitch pine doesn't tolerate compacted clay soil.

    Always like to see someone planting unusual native trees.

    Also, could you message me the location of the gravel pit? I might want to dig up a few of these myself.

  • lostpinejim
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    beng,

    That's a nice looking Table Mountain Pine you have growing there, they have a lot of character . . . . . especially as they get older. They have some really nice (and prickly) cones also.

    I'm not sure about the Moosewood Maple, there is a large variety of plant life growing on the Hawksbill.

    Whose tail is in the picture, a dog or cat?

  • bengz6westmd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sweetie, my little female cat.

    Looks like parts of the southern Appalachians got a rare early Nov snowstorm -- even crossing the mountains southeast to Columbia, S Carolina. Link below shows totals.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Early Nov snow

  • wisconsitom
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Generally speaking, conifers are all opportunists to disturbance. Whether it's Thuja occidentalis coming up after forest fires, or a host of other more well-known pyric relationships among the cone-bearing flora, this is an old story but a good one. Whether it's fire, logging, wind throw, or whatever other major disturbance, this is very often how the groves we so admire came to be. It seems most conifers' seeds require direct contact with mineral soil to germinate, more so than plants generally.

    +oM

  • Jon 6a SE MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ed, There is no sign of holes or any bleeding of sap on the Pitch Pines out back. The largest ones in the 5-6 acres that I roam are 10-12 feet high and these are healthy. The smaller ones struggle and deer rub evidence seems to be the problem. The thick rough bark protects them when they reach a good size. The bark seems to be very attractive when they are young as well but they cannot stand up to the rubbing as well as the more mature trees. That is what it looks like to me.

    I have had 2 Black Pines bought at different times from different nurseries in excellent condition. Each started to die a slow death as soon as they were planted. I don't remember any holes or seeping, just browning and slow deaths, although I wasn't aware of this potential at the time. I think if the beetles were to blame they would show up on the wild Pitch Pines.

    Jon

  • edlincoln
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've told this story before, but the person who owned my parent's land and the neighbors land before it was subdivided planted a lot of Black Pine. Every last one died.

    Pitch pine's gimmick is their bark is extra fire resistant and they are one of the few conifers that can grow back from a stump. Also, in salty, sandy coastal areas the other conifer they compete with is Eastern Red Cedar, which is extra flammable.

  • Jon 6a SE MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The digging out of the pit for a bog was the equivalent of fire clearing the area. The seeds might have blown there from fires which have occurred as close as 1/4 mile away in one case. The sand seemed barren, but evidently there were nutrients to sustain Pitch Pine and the grass that grows there.

  • lostpinejim
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Beng,

    Thanks for the link, we had 5 inches of snow this past Friday night at my house about 5 miles northeast of Asheville, NC.

    I'm 58 and this was the largest accumulation of snow this early in the fall that I can remember. This past summer was very cool here and some nights in July and August were downright chilly.

    I have to laugh at the global warming/climate change disciples, and yes, I'm a "denier" . . . . . at least for man-made climate change. I think it's really just a vehicle for the left to finish off the American economy and destroy our standard of living. Just my opinion and I don't want to get into a political debate in the Conifer Forum, so that's all I'll say on it.

    Here's what was left of the snow Sunday evening under my California Incense Cedar.

    If you click on the link below you can see what the snowfall looked like on Sunday evening on the NC and TN state line.

    Jim

    Here is a link that might be useful: Bald Mountains Snowfall (Warning-Large File Download)

  • bengz6westmd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow, Incense cedar in the east. Saw lots of big ones in Yosemite Park.

    Earliest big snow I remember was at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg on Oct 6th, 1977. 3-4" of very wet snow causing damage, but 12" or more near Lexington, Va causing massive local damage with trees still fully leaved.

    This post was edited by beng on Tue, Nov 4, 14 at 8:02

  • wisconsitom
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One way to not have this conifer forum erupt in political nonsense (See LostPineJim's post above) is to not spout political nonsense in this conifer forum.
    Now go get your tin hat back on!

    +oM

    ps........those scientists who have studied global climate-hey I'm 58 too, and this has been going on since before I was born-all will tell you, although you may have to be able to read, is that the changes being documented are not simply and evenly warming all areas simultaneously. The models being developed call for exactly the type of aberrations we're seeing, including-yes-colder weather in some areas. Only simple-minded and the willfully ignorant think climate change equals uniform warming throughout the planet.

  • Jon 6a SE MA
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    +oM, The 50,000-strong American body of physicists, the American Physical Society (APS), questions the new AR7 Report by the United Nations, Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change-

    The temperature stasis
    While the Global Mean Surface Temperature (GMST) rose strongly from 1980-98, it has shown no significant rise for the past 15 years…[The APS notes that neither the 4th nor 5th IPCC report modeling suggested any stasis would occur, and then asks] …
    To what would you attribute the stasis?
    If non-anthropogenic influences are strong enough to counteract the expected effects of increased CO2, why wouldn’t they be strong enough to sometimes enhance warming trends, and in so doing lead to an over-estimate of CO2 influence?
    What are the implications of this statis for confidence in the models and their projections?
    What do you see as the likelihood of solar influences beyond TSI (total solar irradiance)? Is it coincidence that the statis has occurred during the weakest solar cycle (ie sunspot activity) in about a century?
    Some have suggested that the ‘missing heat’ is going into the deep ocean…
    Are deep ocean observations sufficient in coverage and precision to bear on this hypothesis quantitatively?
    Why would the heat sequestration have ‘turned on’ at the turn of this century?
    What could make it ‘turn off’ and when might that occur?
    Is there any mechanism that would allow the added heat in the deep ocean to reappear in the atmosphere?
    IPCC suggests that the stasis can be attributed in part to ‘internal variability’. Yet climate models imply that a 15-year stasis is very rare and models cannot reproduce the observed Global Mean Surface Temperature even with the observed radiative forcing.
    What is the definition of ‘internal variability’? Is it poorly defined initial conditions in the models or an intrinsically chaotic nature of the climate system? If the latter, what features of the climate system ARE predictable?
    How would the models underestimate of internal variability impact detection and attribution?
    How long must the statis persist before there would be a firm declaration of a problem with the models? If that occurs, would the fix entail: A retuning of model parameters? A modification of ocean conditions? A re-examination of fundamental assumptions?
    The 50,000-strong American body of physicists, the American Physical Society (APS), questions the new AR7 Report by the United Nations, Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change-

    General Understanding
    Confidence
    • What do you consider to be the greatest advances in our understanding of the physical basis of climate change since AR4 in 2007?
    • What do you consider to be the most important gaps in current understanding?
    • How are the IPCC confidence levels determined?
    • What has caused the 5% increase in IPCC confidence from 2007 to 2013?
    • The 50,000-strong American body of physicists, the American Physical Society (APS), questions the new AR7 Report by the United Nations, Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change-

    Climate Sensitivity
    [This relates to the size of feedbacks to the agreed and mild CO2-induced warming. If feedbacks are powerful and positive, the alarmist case is strong. If feedbacks are weak or negative, there is no basis for any climate scare or for trillions of dollars to be spent on curbing CO2 emissions].
    A factor-of-three uncertainty in the global surface temperature response to increasing atmospheric CO2 as expressed by equilibrium climate sensitivity, has persisted through the last three decades of research despite the significant intellectual effort that has been devoted to climate science.
    What gives rise to the large uncertainties in this fundamental parameter of the climate system?
    How is the IPCC’s expression of increasing confidence in the detection/attribution/projection of anthropogenic influences consistent with this persistent uncertainty?
    Wouldn’t detection of an anthropogenic signal necessarily improve estimates of the response to anthropogenic perturbations?
    Models and Projections
    The APS notes that the IPCC draws on results and averages from large numbers of models, and comments, “In particular, it is not sufficient to demonstrate that some member of the ensemble [of models] gets it right at any given time. Rather, as in other fields of science, it is important to know how well the ‘best’ single model does at all times.”
    Were inclusion/exclusion decisions made prior to examining the results? How do those choices impact the uncertainties?
    Which metrics were used to assess the [claimed] improvements in simulations between AR4 and AR5 [2007 and 2013 reports]?
    How well do the individual models do under those metrics? How good are the best models in individually reproducing the relevant climate observations to a precision commensurate with the anthropogenic perturbations?
    Climate Sensitivities
    The APS notes that the 5th IPCC report acknowledged model overestimates of climate sensitivity to C02 increases, both in transient and equilibrium modes:
    “As the observational value of TCR [transient climate response] is simply estimated to be approximately 1.3degC, it appears that the models overestimate this crucial climate parameter by almost 50%.”
    Please comment on the above assessment.
    Box 12.2 of AR5 Working Group 1 states: ‘Unlike ECS [equilibrium climate sensitivity], the ranges of TCS [transient climate sensitivity] estimated from the observed warming and from AOGCMs [ Atmosphere-Ocean General Circulation Model] agree well, increasing our confidence in the assessment of uncertainties in projections over the 21st century.’ Please comment on that statement in light of the discussion above.
    The scale of anthropogenic perturbations
    The APS notes that solar and thermal warming of the earth’s surface is about 503 watts per square metre, whereas the IPCC’s estimate of manmade CO2 forcing is only 1.3-3.3 watts per square metre, less than 0.5% of the total. Even if CO2 levels leapt from the present 400 parts per million to 550ppm, the CO2 warming would still be less than 4 watts per square metre, the APS says.
    “The earth’s climate stems from a multi-component, driven, noisy, non-linear system that shows temporal variability from minutes to millennia. Instrumental observations of key physical climate variables have sufficient coverage and precision only over the past 150 years at best (and usually much less than that). Many different processes and phenomena will be relevant and each needs to be ‘gotten right’ with high precision if the response to anthropogenic perturbations is to be attributed correctly and quantified accurately. For example, a change in the earth’s average shortwave albedo [reflectivity] from 0.30 to 0.29 due to changing clouds, snow/ice, aerosols, or land character would induce a 3.4 W/m2 direct perturbation in the downward flux [warming], 50% larger than the present anthropogenic perturbation.
    Moreover, there are expected feedbacks (water vapor-temperature, ice-albedo…) that would amplify the perturbative response by factors of several. How can one understand the IPCC’s expressed confidence in identifying and projecting the effects of such small anthropogenic perturbations in view of such difficult circumstances?”
    Sea Ice
    The APS notes that the models seem able to reproduce the Arctic declining ice trend, but not the Antarctic rising ice trend. Moreover, the APS has spotted that the IPCC had done its ice graphs using only 17 out of its 40 models, these 17 happening to produce reasonable fits with the data. The APS says,
    “One may therefore conclude that the bulk of the CMIP5 [latest] models do not reproduce reasonable seasonal mean and magnitude of the ice cycle. Is that the case? And if so, what are the implications for the confidence with which the ensemble [the whole 40 models] can be used for other purposes?
    Oceans
    The rate of rise during 1930-1950 was comparable to, if not larger than, the value in recent years. Please explain that circumstance in light of the presumed monotonic [steady] increase from anthropogenic effects.
    The IPCC-projected rise of up to 1m by the end of this century would require an average rate of up to 12mm/yr for the rest of this century, some four times the current rate, and an order of magnitude larger than implied by the 20th century acceleration of0.01mm/yr found in some studies. What drives the projected sea level rise? To what extent is it dependent upon a continued rise in Global Mean Surface Temperature?…
    With uncertainty in ocean data being ten times larger than the total magnitude of the warming attributed to anthropogenic sources, and combined with the IPCC’s conclusion that it has less than 10% confidence that it can separate long-term trends from regular variability, why is it reasonable to conclude that increases in Global Mean Surface Temperature are attributable to radiative forcing rather than to ocean variability?

  • edlincoln
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just *love* when people toss out a political statement and then say "but I don't want to talk politics". Despite your "I don't want the conifer forum to erupt into politics" you are doing your best to make sure it does. I have plenty of places I can go for politics...I go here if I want to discuss trees.

  • lostpinejim
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    beng,

    I have another Incense Cedar that is a lot bigger than the one in the photo, my father planted it in the 1950's. It's hard to get a good photo of it because it's surrounded by Sugar Maples and Hemlocks.

    I have several trees native to the Southwest and Mexico . . . . .

    My Apache Pine (Pinus engelmannii) in 2009 . . . . .

    and in 2014 . . . . .

    My Sugar Pine hybrid ((Pinus armandii x Pinus lambertiana) . . . . .

    I've also got a nice, but small, Limber Pine (Pinus flexilis). It's true Limber Pine not the larger Pinus flexilis reflexa (like Vanderwolf's Pyramid) that is sold as Limber Pine. I grew it from seed that I collected from this Witches' Broom I found on Mount Pinos in Ventura County, California . . . . .

    I've also got a Bristlecone Pine (Pinus aristata) that is barely hanging on, I think the summers are too warm and humid for it here.

    Jim

  • lostpinejim
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    beng,

    If you have lived or spent time in Blacksburg and southwest Virginia, have you driven up I-77 from Wytheville to Bluefield, and did you notice the Virginia Pine (Pinus virginiana) growing along I-77?

    Some really nice, compact and dwarf trees with a lot of character growing right along the Interstate up there in pure gravel and rock.

    Pinus virginiana is a really variable species, this is one I found growing alongside a vacant parking lot in Greenville, SC. I think it's a beautiful tree . . . . .

    I think the common, or scrub, Pines like Jack Pine, Pitch Pine and Table Mountain and Virginia Pine, are underrated as ornamentals.

    Jim

  • bengz6westmd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yup, there are some impressive VA pines right near here around old farmsteads. Not huge, but in the open in good soil, they eventually grow more like a spreading oak than a pine. Nobody plants them, so they must be trees that were spared the chainsaw.

    Here's one at the National Arb in DC:

  • bengz6westmd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And a 70' forest-grown Table Mnt pine near Blacksburg, VA where I lived:

  • bengz6westmd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jim, you've shown that Apache pine before & it's a jaw-dropper. Blue-green & soft as a baby's behind.

    Looks like a massive graft at the bottom?

  • lostpinejim
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's not a graft, I damaged it when it was young . . . . . I won't say how.

    That Table Mountain Pine near Blacksburg is spectacular, I wish I had it growing on my property.

    There is a very old Virginia Pine growing in Cherokee County, Georgia, north of Atlanta, that has been named "Ancient Wonder". I can't find a picture of it on the internet but there is one in the book "Landscaping with Conifers and Ginkgo for the Southeast". It is a beautiful tree estimated to be around 150 years old, you can read more about it at the link below.

    Thanks for uploading those pictures.

    Jim

    Here is a link that might be useful: Saving a Rare Tree

  • mikebotann
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, whatever you did to it, I like the outcome.
    Mike

  • bengz6westmd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Open-grown Table Mnt pine in western NC. Some open-grown VA pines look similar:

  • pinyonhead
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Search for the article - Sources of variation in growth, form, and survival in dwarf and normal-stature pitch pines
    (American Journal of Botany)- some interesting conclusions.

  • lostpinejim
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mike,

    Thanks, I like it too.

    pinyonhead,

    Thanks for the link, apparently environmental conditions produce the dwarf characteristics more than genetic factors . . . . . at least in Long Island Pitch Pines. The interesting thing about the the Pygmy Pitch Pines on Hawksbill Mountain is that I can easily throw a rock from the Pygmies to a Pitch Pine that is almost normal in size and appearance for the species.

    Beng,

    That's another nice Table Mountain Pine, here is a Witches' Broom that I found growing in a large Pitch Pine along the Blue Ridge Parkway in McDowell County, NC.

    Jim


  • bengz6westmd
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, Jim. Good discussion post on some neglected but worthy native pines.