It's a slow-growing larger form, but it'll likely die of climatic distress (heat / drought) in the SW before it gets more than a couple of metres tall. To succeed long term in Britain, it really needs to be in the western Highlands of Scotland with 4000mm+ annual rainfall.

Resin

i will yell..

A HUNDRED AND FIFTY SEVEN INCHES OF RAIN OR MORE!!! PER YEAR ...

lol

ken

What a BLUE cone!!

"i will yell.. ..."

In the wild, it gets more than double that ;-)

Resin

Thanks as ever Resin, that chimes with what I read about the species, glad you could disabuse me clearly from attempting to try. I wonder how Stephen managed/s with his on the South Coast. Will Firefighter and Coenosium in PNW will be better with their climate I'm guessing.

You're welcome! The only decent Abies delavayi I've ever seen are at Kilmun in Argyll, and they certainly get drenched there.

There's another of the semi-dwarf cultivars at RBG Edinburgh ('Major Neishe'), which lasted a good while (until it reached about a metre and a half tall), but last I saw it, it was looking rather thin and poorly, no longer attractive. I'd guess if you did get one, you might get 20-30 or so years' decent growth before it failed, but any hot droughty summers could easily shorten that.

Resin

I'd love to see pictures of them if ever you're back there...

No, zone pushing isn't something I'm interested in for my gratification. I like plants to be happy in as much as my skill will allow. At least if I pick climate relative ones they stand a chance!

This post was edited by severnside on Thu, Nov 29, 12 at 10:36

The thought of something dying of heat/drought stress in SW England...truly laughable but we'll take Resin's word for it, 'cause he's Resin. Is the ground ever actually dry there?

I had the somewhat similar A. spectabilis die in a hot summer even though it was supposedly on A. firma. However some guy I know in NC says his A. spectabilis is doing ok down there, also on A. firma. BUT Larry Stanley said A. spectabilis lacked vigor at his nursery. Lack of summer humidity?

Further adding to the confusion, there's a purported A. delavayi in Carlisle, PA. If I'm ever back up there again I will try to get a close up picture of it for Resin. I would be happy to find out it's misidentified. It looks perfectly happy; that climate might as well be Taos, NM compared to SW England so something isn't making sense here...

And...critical point of observation here.
I wouldn't dare argue with the Resin, and I'm sure his observations about their success in various parts of the UK are correct. But let's remember the weird little stomatal whatevers are there to open up and allow the plant to relieve itself of excess monsoonal moisture. In a less moist climate, surely, they can adapt by leaving them closed? Are there _really_ many temperate/subtropical plants that require >= 20cm/8 inches of rain per month in a cool or moderate summer climate? At that rate, the ground is never going to dry. These montane species grow on steep rocky slopes. Put them in a typical garden and it seems self-evident that they will have more ground moisture available.
Maybe some curious maladaption occurs in SW England...like...the stomata stay open too long because of the cloudy weather but it causes the plants to bleed too much water because the ground isn't as saturated as the degree of cloudiness would suggest? Whereas in a sunnier (in summer) place like Vancouver Island they stay closed?

Uh oh...for some reason I'm thinking I've misunderstood the point of the stomata. Reading up on this now. Maybe I'm mixing references and various leaf features for removing excess water only occur in rhododendrons. Sorry if that's the case; as I've said that's actually a group of plants that gets me a bit more excited than conifers but the forum here for them is rather moribund.

Although, fundamentally, the point I'm making is a sound one about the plant's moisture regulation. The highlands of Scotland are year round moisture. A place like Shillong, IN is actually rather dry in winter though presumably it doesn't dry out too much. It surprises me plants from there would have trouble in a place with year round moisture and moderate temps, like SW UK. I just can't imagine their roots actually need all that water, because they would have to have some adaptation to dryness during the winter.
(I COULD accept, say, a tropical plant from Hawaii or the Amazon that gets a year round 150+ inches of rain actually needing a similar amt. of rainfall in a tropical climate elsewhere, because those sorts of climates has much less seasonality)

I am growing both this cultivar and 'Major Neishe' as well as several other delavayi/georgii/forestii types of fir, all of which presumably come from much wetter climates.

Contrary to common belief, much of the Pacific Northwest is drier, on both an annual and consistent basis than the rest of the Midwest/East. For example, we get about 25-35 inches of annual rainfall, exceeded by Newyork city, Chicago, the Carolinas, etc... Additionally, our rain comes in a massive deluge from about November to early April, and in the Summer, we get drought conditions, sometimes incredibly so. This last summer we had 0.01 inches of rain at my house over a 90+ day stretch of late Summer.

Time will tell how they do here, but as Resin suggests, perhaps not very well.

-Will

Hi David,

Abies delavayi actually has some remarkable water exclusion features: a glossy smooth upper side of the leaf with no stomata, and with the leaf side curled under; and very dense wax coating on the stomata on the underside. The only other species to share all of these characters (including the downcurved leaf margins) are Abies fabri and Abies densa, both of which also occur on front ranges exposed to the full force of the monsoon, There's a short paper on it by Keith Rushforth in the IDS Yearbook 1983: 118-120.

Quote: "My hypothesis is that the recurving of the margins and the thick wax covering of the stomata are a response to excess water and serve to assist run-off, like drip-tips in tropical rainforest trees, and to allow the stomata to function during prolonged and intense wet seasons".

Resin

Yes, the PNW is much drier in summer than the UK. I was browsing around in wikipedia & looking at climate of SW England. The odd thing is the coastal cities have surprising low rainfall compared to the only slightly elevated inland areas. But they still have plenty of rain in summer.

Something did occur me watching Doc Martin tonight. All of the UK but particularly the coastal & SW areas are windier than most of the PNW. Maybe this can dry out very thirsty plants like these firs more quickly than the cool summers and year-round rainfall would suggest.

In any case, it isn't heat damage in a place that's barely warmer than their native habitat. They could probably grow on Dartmoor if anybody actually planted one...that would be in the SW lol.

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Thu, Nov 29, 12 at 20:45

Here is the purported Abies delavayi in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Sorry it's out of focus, and not very close up. I wasn't thinking "Resin verification will be required" at the time!

{{gwi:840439}}

Tricky, as the focus isn't very sharp - can you get some better pics please, showing:
Top side of a shoot
Under side of a shoot
Macro close-up to see if the shoot is pubescent or not, also of buds
Cones, if any; alternatively old cone stalks if present but no cones

Resin

Thanks Resin.
I'll try to get those if I'm up there again.

I'm so tempted to try one as it would be a good experiment and the specimen would suffer if so for a cause at least. Worth a punt Resin/Dave? Deadline is Monday.

Would still love Bluespruce to chime in...

"I'm so tempted to try one as it would be a good experiment and the specimen would suffer if so for a cause at least. Worth a punt Resin/Dave? Deadline is Monday"

Might be better to try Abies fargesii, closely related but more adaptable to the climate here.

Resin

If resin says it doesn't grow in my part of the UK, I'd try something else!
That being said I do want to get to the bottom of what's growing in Carlisle, PA.

Ok I'll pass, chock full now anyway and if it's literally a fish out of water then no.

Thanks Resin and David.

Only have young plant in the ground here, sold one to Richard a while back,'Buchanan' is a slow grower, and I can't really visualize any major problems growing this cultivar in any garden setting here in the UK, as with many other dwarf conifers you just cater for it's needs if necessary, and certainly no reason to exclude this wonderful cultivar from any collection in my opinion.

My young plant, seems very slow growing at least for the early years...

Very nice plant Blue, looks happy enough. I passed but I'd certainly like to see updates of yours and anyone elses.

As I said, I did sell one to Richard, it was the only other one I had and probably the better plant of the two right now, be interesting to see how his fairs too

Resin,
I know this is just a bit of an improvement. Will it be any help? FWIW, he was pretty sure this was "Abies delavayi forestii" or "Abies delavayi fortunei", but I'm pretty sure the latter doesn't exist. The smell is exceptional. This plant is in a hard zn 6 climate, and must have seen Closeup (view with right click since GW has shrunk it slightly):
{{gwi:840441}}
Overall:
{{gwi:840442}}

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Sun, Mar 10, 13 at 17:02

'Fraid it looks more like Abies nordmanniana to me. Nothing in the delavayi / forrestii group at all, they have a different branching habit, which somewhat reminds one of a Menorah.

Resin

Thanks. It's good to know, although disappointing! It doesn't look like most Abies nordmanniana though, at least ones that I've seen on the US east coast. They seem to get clumpier at top. There's one near the Forest Glen metro stop in DC that has a chimney-stack look. Or these at Longwood.
https://plantexplorer.longwoodgardens.org/weboi/oecgi2.exe/INET_ECM_DispPl?NAMENUM=58&DETAIL=1&startpage=1#images

Maybe it's just the shadiness of this site.

Here is a link that might be useful: https://plantexplorer.longwoodgardens.org/weboi/oecgi2.exe/INET_ECM_DispPl?NAMENUM=58&DETAIL=1&startpage=1#images

Yep, the shade would have that effect; also, it is still young and vigorous.

Resin

Someone sent me a picture of a supposed A. forrestii sold by the nursery I visited some years ago. I think it might have the distinctive branching Resin mentions.
This is what happened: the nursery owner pointed out a couple trees as being A. delavayi to me. One was straggly and less attractive; I was more excited by the better looking one. Well, it could well have been better looking because it was actually A. nordmanniana, or something similar looking, that was better suited to that climate. Either he mixed up which tree was which over the years, was incorrectly sold a Nordmann fir as another, or a scion died and a rootstock kept growing.
In any case, the only way to truly sort it out (I think) will be to see the male flowers of these trees, which look definitively different.

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Mon, Mar 11, 13 at 17:13